| Author | Message | ||
     Simond |
While there is no doubt that Yamaha have outdone Honda with the Open Class bike, I think a lot of their speed is down to a rider at the top of his game. If Rossi doesn't continue continue in 2015 and/or if Lorenzo jumps ship, Yamaha will be looking at the Espargaro brothers very closely. | ||
| Jaimec |
I understand that despite the Open-class rules, the teams that are running the Yamaha engine package will only be getting five engines, not 12... so there is a slight advantage to the Honda customer deal. | ||
| 46champ |
5 is what you get for the money you pay. Bet you could pay for more. Now Honda's motor might be different are they going to let you pay for more horse power. If you get 5 races into the season and suddenly the next batch of engines has 16 more horsepower doesn't that mean all your existing electronic settings are now null and void. Oh well back to the drawing board. | ||
| Trojan |
If Yamaha can last a full season on 5 fast engines ther eis very little advantage to having 12 slower ones. I think Honda have fallen foul of their own marketing hype, and the fact that they have been very reluctant to embrace or even share with others the DORNA spec software for Open class bikes. Unless they get it sorted pretty quick I can see teams jumping ship mid season and going to Yamaha or even back to Aprilia. The Open class FTR/Yamahas are running the same software with much more success so it can obviusly work well. I agree that Espagaro is a big part of the equation, and it would be very interesting to see what times Lorenzo or Rossi were capbale of posting on the Open class bike for comparison. Hayden has improved on day 2 but is still 2.3 seconds off the front on the leading Open class Honda (1.7 behind Espagaro on the Open Yamaha/FTR). He is also only 1.5 seconds faster than Michael laverty riding last years Aprilia CRT engined bike (they won't get the latest version of the Aprilia/ART engine until around round 4). Scott Redding is only just getting used to the bike having pretty much missed the previous test through injury, and Karel Abraham is still crocked with his shoulder and very slow (I woudl not be surprised to see him retire this year with his injury). Aoyama is just a waste of a decent ride and is only there because he is Japanese and a favourite of Honda, so came with the package. 1 93 Marc Marquez Honda RC213V 1:59.926 2 26 Dani Pedrosa Honda RC213V 2:00.336 3 6 Stefan Bradl Honda RC213V 2:00.339 4 46 Valentino Rossi Yamaha M1 2:00.464 5 41 Aleix Espargaro Yamaha/FTR Open 2:00.547 6 99 Jorge Lorenzo Yamaha M1 2:00.573 7 38 Bradley Smith Yamaha M1 2:00.603 8 29 Andrea Iannone Ducati GP14 2:00.855 9 19 Alvaro Bautista Honda RC213V 2:00.897 10 41 Pol Espargaro Yamaha M1 2:01.061 11 4 Andrea Dovizioso Ducati GP14 2:01.146 12 35 Cal Crutchlow Ducati GP14 2:01.396 13 51 Michele Pirro Ducati GP14 Test 2:02.177 14 69 Nicky Hayden Honda RCV1000R Open 2:02.287 15 5 Colin Edwards Yamaha FTR Open 2:02.545 16 68 Yonny Hernandez Ducati GP13 Open 2:02.675 17 72 Kosuke Akiyoshi Honda RC213V Test 2:02.692 18 7 Hiroshi Aoyama Honda RCV1000R Open 2:02.825 19 89 Katsuyuki Nakasuga Yamaha M1 Test 2:02.970 20 14 Randy De Puniet Suzuki Test 2:03.064 21 45 Scott Redding Honda RCV1000R Open 2:03.117 22 70 Michael Laverty PBM Aprilia 2:03.528 23 8 Hector Barbera Avintia Kawasaki 2:04.551 24 23 Broc Parkes PBM Aprilia 2:04.619 25 17 Karel Abraham Honda RCV1000R Open 2:05.261 26 63 Mike Di Meglio Avintia Kawasaki 2:05.355 | ||
| Simond |
Impressive time from Bradley Smith. | ||
| Jaimec |
Lorenzo seems to be having difficulty coming to terms with Yamaha's updates this year... Hope he gets sorted out before the season begins. | ||
| Trojan |
Amazing how just altering the electronics to deal with 1 litre less fuel can uset the handling so much for Lorenzo. Apparently the fuelling is now much more harsh which upsets his smooth and high corner speed style. I suppose once you get to this stratospheric level even the tiniest adjustment can mean the difference between 1st and 5th! Sepang is very much a 'Honda track' though, so I wouldn't bet against Jorge just yet. Philip Island should suit the Yamaha more and it will be interesting to see if they can get ahead of the factory Honda brigade at that test. | ||
| Jaimec |
Is anyone other than Forward running the Yamaha "Open" package? I've been hearing stories of Honda officials getting their panties in a knot over Aleix's testing times... but if you look further down the time sheets, Colin Edwards is slower than Nicky... so what are they all upset about? Yamaha should just throw it back into their faces that Casey Stoner was able to run competitive lap times on THEIR "Open" package too... so what?? | ||
| Amafan |
First of all the head of HRC finally admitted that it was the Japanese test rider not Stoner that .3 of a second off with the open class bike. Stoner did only 4 laps on the Open bike and was 1.5 seconds off his times on the RCV13. The Open Honda motor is using Spring Valves,the last time Honda used spring valves in a MotoGP motor was in 2007 and that bike was way under powered just like the Open Honda is . Nicky Hayden is riding his ass off,and if the Open Honda had any grunt and top speed,he would have a chance for podiums,but no chance with that motor. | ||
| Jaimec |
Still doesn't matter to me. Honda is making such a big stink about pulling out of the series if they're forced to use the spec ECU software. Obviously, Aleix is NOT having any problems with the spec software. Honda is just (typically) acting pissy that they aren't getting their way. If Yamaha is having a fuel consumption problem, then maybe THEY (and not Ducati) should go the "Open" route. 24 liters of fuel, 12 (unsealed) engines... all in exchange for running the spec software. Let's see Honda put THAT in their pipe and smoke it. | ||
| Trojan |
Nicky Hayden is riding his ass off,and if the Open Honda had any grunt and top speed,he would have a chance for podiums,but no chance with that motor. He's got as much chance as I have of getting near a MotoGP podium these days. Hayden is a good rider but how many races MotoGP has he won in his career? And they were on THE dominant bike at the time. Unfortunately there are now faster, younger and hungrier riders in the series and if he gets in the top 6 he should be extremely happy. As Colin Edwards so finely put it when asked about his new team mates times..."It would be nice to be 25 again. Fresh balls and full of piss and vinegar. He is doing great. He is very impressive," Some things get better with age, but speed is not one of them. | ||
| Jaimec |
Nicky has three more wins under his belt than Colin Edwards, and two more than Ben Spies. Both of those guys were ALSO on the dominant bike of their days. He also has three more wins than Stefan Bradl, Cal Crutchlow, Alvaro Bautista and Randy dePuniet so I'm not sure what point you were trying to make. Oh yes... there's also that pesky "2006 World Champion" title in there too... | ||
| Trojan |
He also has three more wins than Stefan Bradl, Cal Crutchlow, Alvaro Bautista and Randy dePuniet so I'm not sure what point you were trying to make. I know how many wins he has had in the past while riding a factory Honda. My point is that he is very unlikely to get any more wins riding a customer RC1000 Honda, no matter how hard he tries (unless everyone in the top 6 falls off). I could make the same point about the majority of riders including the ones you mentioned. While there are four riders at the top of their game and occupying the factory seats nobody else will get a look in for a win. Maybe the occasional podium will be possible if one of the aliens has an off day, but that is all anyone else can ask for. Nicky is riding the 3rd level Honda, well behind Repsol and the two customer RC213V teams, and you can be sure that HRC plan for them to finish in that order if they have any say in the matter. barring freak weather or circumstance I can't see any of the Open Hondas or Yamaha (maybe with the exception of the talented Mr Espagaro) getting near the podium. Espagaro has already shown that he can make uncompetitivebikes do amazing things last year, so it should be no surprise that he is at the front of the new CRT class after all. | ||
| Amafan |
Yes,Nicky has no chance on the Open Honda,with that underpowered motor,but if he had a motor that has as much power as the Open Yamaha,I have no doubt he would be a podium threat. People forget he pretty had the same pace as Dovi and Rossi at Ducati,and they have gotten Podiums on good Yamahas,after and before being Nickys teamate at Ducati.When MotoGP release top speed charts,people will be more impressed of the times Nicky has did with the Open Honda at Sepeng,a track with multiple high speed straights, I feel sorry for Scott Reading he also has no chance of showing his talent on the Open Honda . | ||
| 46champ |
We may have a surprise in store for us this year. If Honda is going racing to give the engineers a challenge they have done it. I did a little figuring on millage and NOT counting the sighting lap and just using the Qatar lap of 73.5 miles the factory bikes need to get better than 13.92 miles per US gallon. The open bikes only need to get 11.59 miles per US gallon. Now do I think Nicky can win no Honda built them a bike to make sure that will not happen. But Yamaha has done the correct thing build a bike that maybe someone on our bike can win. There is a different marketing plan that only someone with real confidence in there own masculinity can subscribe to: The most important person to beat you is your own customer. Mr. Espargaro could be that man. (Message edited by 46champ on February 08, 2014) | ||
| Bads1 |
To early..... we may have not seen how well the bike can do. First test.... new bike...Nicky has been on the Duc way long. I'll wait for further testing before I assume anything | ||
| Jaimec |
Nicky was already the fastest on the customer Honda. Aoyama was closest, but Redding and Abraham might as well have been on one of last year's CRT bikes. | ||
| Trojan |
Nicky was already the fastest on the customer Honda. Aoyama was closest, but Redding and Abraham might as well have been on one of last year's CRT bikes. You also have to remember that Redding and Abraham were injured for the post season valencia test and are still crocked now, so just being at this test was their first proper ride on the bike and a positive test for Scott Redding at least. Redding worked on lots of things during this test but did not get to do a quick, low fuel/soft tyre lap like a lot of the riders do to get headlines. Sadly, Abraham looks like his injuries may even be career ending (similar injury that ended Ben Spies and Neil Hodgsons careers). If he can't get them sorted before the next test i think we may see him bow out of the seeries. Whether his dad continues to finance the team for a different rider if Karel leaves is another matter,. At the end of the day, Nicky being fastest of the customer Hondas isn't too spectacular an achievement at the moment, and Honda need to work on the speed of the bike to get it closer to the rest of the pack. The next test at the end of the month should tell us a lot more about the relative competitiveness of the customer Honda as well as the direcftion Ducati intend to take with their team(s). meanwhile....Moto2 testing starts tomorrow  | ||
| Jaimec |
Speaking of CRTs... Was Aleix Espargaro EVER on a proper prototype, or has he always been held back by riding a CRT? I often wonder how John Hopkins career might've gone had he not been so loyal to Suzuki for all of those years. Jumping to the equally uncompetitive Kawasaki did him no favors either. | ||
| Trojan |
Was Aleix Espargaro EVER on a proper prototype There is a bit of discussion about the 'CRT' that Aleix was riding last year. The engine spec was very much advanced compared to the motor that PBM/Cardion etc had available to them. In fact PBM will only get the 'Aspar' spec motors at the first round of the series this year and are still running the old engines from last year at the moment in testing. Don't know what the differences actually are but they are supposed to be significant. The Aspar team last year were effectively the factory Aprilia team, so were actually kind of midway between CRT and prototype in reality (although this takes nothing away form Espagaors performance relative to his team mate of course). PBM, as the only team left using ART/Aprilia engines, expect to then get the latest Aprilia/ART motor (with pneumatic valves etc) by mid seaason hopefully. Aleix certainly seems to have slipped through the factory net and would seem to deserve a decent factory ride given his performances so far. There is talk that Espagaro senior may not be able to sustain those impressibe lap times over a full race distance, and even he has doubts about the performance during the last 10 laps of the race using the soft tyre they are allowed, which gives an advanatge over the factory option team tyres. if they end up running the same tyres as the factory bikes the gap may increase between them. John Hopkins was his own worst enemy and he pretty much threw away his GP career. H eis back in BSB this year for Tyco Suzuki, and reckons he turned down a MotoGp ride to race in BSB for 2014 (though he doesn't say who for!). | ||
| Trojan |
Interesting response from Nakamoto at Honda to the criticism of the new RC1000 Honda as being 'too slow'. "The gap is big but, to be honest, Honda’s machines are not easy to ride. The riders need a bit more time to understand how the machine is. We believe the riders are able to achieve a constant level." In other words.....riders are the problem, our machine is perfect (maybe he should be working at Ducati!). I don't hold out much hope for any major updates in the near future for Hayden, Redding and co then  Could be a long and frustrating season for those guys. | ||
| Simond |
I thought Ioda were going to get first dibs on the top spec Aprilia kit. | ||
| Trojan |
I thought Ioda were going to get first dibs on the top spec Aprilia kit. So did I, but since then I have heard (don't know how reliable that is!) that PBM will get the same spec or better and get the 'factory' spec engines from Aprilia even if they use their own chassis. It will be interesting to see exactly who turns up with what at the next test, as Ioda sat out the last one completely as the bikes weren't ready. | ||
| Simond |
While that's great for PBM I do hope that Leon Camier has a decent bike under him. Camier/Petrucci seem to me to be a much more promising line-up than Laverty/Parkes. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
So, under CRT rules, how can there be a sort of half way between CRT and factory engine? Isn't the rule CRT's are not allowed to represent manufacturers? Therefore how can a CRT bike work toward or end up with a factory engine? And why if in the case of Aleix Espagaro, his engine was more advanced than the PBM, and PBM are not going to get 'Aspar' spec motors until the first round this year, why don't PBM use the 'claiming rights' rule and just buy their rivals engine before the start of a race last season? Why wait for a new season for new engines, yet test with your engines from last season? The 'CR' rule was intended to prevent one team having something better than another, in which case if a team did have an advantage through better components or similar, the advantage could be taken from them by their rivals buying the advantaged engine from the team with it. Sorry but I am so confused by this dumb system. As if this isn't enough to fathom. How can Ducati become an 'open' team? I assume by 'open' this is CRT? I thought the introduction of CRT was for privateer teams to compete against manufacturers factory prototypes, and (significantly) manufacturers are not permitted to masquerade as a CRT team? Yep call me utterly confused. Rocket in England | ||
| Jaimec |
Interesting. That is EXACTLY the reason they lost Rossi to Yamaha. It seems they haven't learned a thing. | ||
| 46champ |
Rocket CRT is no more, some CRT specific rules are now defunct and the bikes are open bikes. I am not sure the difference between a Factory bike and an open bike is more than the ECU and the programing that goes into it. This is from a purely theoretical point of view. As the bikes are presently constructed there are more differences. Oh the open bikes get 4 liters more gas. | ||
| Simond |
Yes... for 2014 there is no CRT. The claiming rule doesn't work when both teams are supplied by the same engine manufacturer. Paul Bird would have got one well used engine and a pissed off engine supplier. It's difficult to tell how much of Espargaro's performance last year was down to the engine and how much to the rider. The tests with the open Yamaha suggest that the rider was a significant part of the equation. I imagine that Suzuki are looking very closely at both Eugene Laverty and Alex Lowes for a MotoGP ride next year after de Puniet's performance last year. | ||
| Trojan |
ART were of course just factory Aprilias under a different name, so they managed to circumvent the spririt of the CRT rules by running a 'very' modified Superbike engine under CRT rules. This doesn't mean of course that all their supplied teams got the same level of equipment or support. The Aspar team were effectively the ART development and factory team last year. They got the best engines/electronics and the latest developments as soon as they were available from ART, so always had an advantage over the other teams running ART engines. PBM were just a customer team that bought their engines from ART with little support or updates all year. PBM also chose to run the FIM/DORNA spec software last year so werer at a significant disadvantage against the Aspar team who ran the ART software package. This year they would both have had to run the same FIM software so PBM may have had a slight advantage having a years experienced with it (we'll never know now that Aspar jumped ship). PBM spent all winter negotiating with Aprilia so have hopefully come up with a better package for 2014 from them (although looking at the aged kit they went testing with this month may point to that not being exactly the case). I think we'll just have to see who turns up at Sepang with what at the next test before it all becomes a bit clearer. What seems a bit strange to me is that Ioda were unable to attend the first test even though ART had bikes they could use (apparently built for Aspar before they decided to buy Honda instead). Maybe they have funding or sponsorship issues still and it remans to be seen if they will be on the track when test 2 starts later this month. Rocket - Don't confuse CRT with Open class. CRT is no more and Open class is the new kid on the block. Open class is certainly a step up from CRT and allows manufacturers to run in it IF they use the supplied software (all teams must use the Dorna ECU this year but factory teams can run their own software package). Open teams get more fuel allowance and crucially (for Ducati) 12 engines and no restriction on engine development over the year. Factory teams have a ban on engine development and just 5 engines for the year. The FTR Avintia/kawasaki this year is a mongrel mix of Kawasaki ZX10 and Hayate MotoGP engine parts apparently, so they have oved up a bit too (although don't seem much faaster for it). The best of the Open machines (Espagaro in particular) should be able to mix it with the slowest of the factory bikes this year, but I can't see any of them actually fighting for the championship against the top 4 guys. The occaasional podium may be possible but even that would require one of the aliens to drop out first. Moto2 looks much closer as usual and will again be the most exciting class to watch again in 2014. The top guys in testing were just hundreths apart and the new guys (Vinales, Salom, Lowes in particular) are faast straight away. Looks like being a good Moto2 season | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
I didn't realise CRT had been replaced by 'Open Class'. How did I miss this - when did it happen? I read MCN weekly and never miss the Moto GP section. I can't figure out where I've lost the plot here. I need a doctor. This is mental. So what happened to CRT? It was designed to work 2013/14 once established. What's going on? Confused in England |
