| Author | Message | ||
     Reepicheep |
Get over it. It's NOT a 600 class, if it was, it would have been called a 600cc class, and the rules would have been built to only allow 600cc bikes. It's a "sportbike" class. There is a sportbike class balance of mods / power / weight / money at the lower end, and a superbike class balance of mods / power / weight / money at the top end. If you prefer a more myopic focus on just displacement, there are plenty of sanctioning bodies and racing classes that do exactly that. Go watch it, or race in it. I, a died in the wool motorcycle enthusiast, get bored to tears watching the cc limited racing classes race. I started watching daytona sportbike to see the Buell run. I kept watching it for the GREAT racing. Even my kids enjoy watching it... | ||
| Rfischer |
*** Sigh *** More semantics. Sponsors sponsor so their products get exposure. Their products get exposure IF and only IF spectators and fans show up, or watch broadcasts. Spectators and fans 'spectate for the entertainment value the spectating provides. A fortiori, the primary focus of promoters and sponsors alike is to ensure entertainment to bring the spectators and fans. Talk to motorsports marketing folks and they will explain it to you, as will the fine people at DMG/AMA/NASCAR/F1/WSBK/ ad infinitum. Caveat: this dynamic applies to professional racing only. For obvious reasons, National amateur and club racing is a different kettle of fish. There, rules have a different function. It's just entertainment guys - get over yourselves. | ||
| Elvis |
The racing was great this year, but what is going to happen next year? If Eslick stays with RMR and they continue to grow and learn and get better, then what? Is it out of the question that Danny and RMR could completely blow every other bike out of the water at Daytona next year? I think that's a real possibility. The racing was close this year because Danny was learning the bike and learning the tracks and RMR was learning how to make the bike faster. Toward the end of the season we were seeing that, after Danny fumbled a little bit at the beginning of the weekend, he was generally the fastest or nearly the fastest bike by Sunday morning. Now that they have notes on suspension settings for the various tracks etc. he's going to be able to start the weekend with more speed and get faster from there. The 600's aren't going to get much faster, but I don't think Danny has hit the ceiling yet. I don't think the engine is being pushed to it's breaking point and as they get closer to that point, the abilities of the Buell will eclipse the other bikes. That will force DMG to add weight to the Buell and/or maybe a restrictor plate. So Danny will be struggling to race a hobbled 1125R against wide open competition . . . and the Buell haters (who clearly are focused on displacement and don't pay any attention to other factors) will be laughing their asses off when the Buell is struggling against the 600's. As Buell fans and people who have been hungry to see the Buell race in a real series, we've been defending the inclusion of the Buell, but as Buell fans, we know that it really is a better bike than the 600's with better capabilities and potential, and, as fans, we need to be able to move on to Superbike. | ||
| Fast1075 |
Danny did not dominate every race...he dominated on tracks that were suitable to bring the best performance that he AND THE BIKE could provide. Some tracks were just right for domination, others were not...the racing was close and most enjoyable to watch...because it was not a walkaway by one brand all the time. Like the riders or not, they are all skilled and entertaining to watch ride. | ||
| Jaimec |
Rossi dominated MotoGP the past six or seven seasons?? Dang, wonder if anyone told Nicky Hayden and Casey Stoner this? | ||
| Trojan |
Sponsors sponsor so their products get exposure. Their products get exposure IF and only IF spectators and fans show up, or watch broadcasts. Spectators and fans 'spectate for the entertainment value the spectating provides. A fortiori, the primary focus of promoters and sponsors alike is to ensure entertainment to bring the spectators and fans. Exactly. Except you forgot to mention that sponsors are also interested in getting their moneys worth out of their investment, hence they sponsor the biggest and best players that they can. Coca Cola will not go down to the local club race and pay soomeone to ride around last in a race watched by 50 people, regardless of how entertaining it may be. In order to get events big enough to interest large scale sponsors and investment you need to have the very best on show, whether that be motorcycle racing or football. And in order to have the big events you need sponsors......vicious circle! To get sponsors interested in funding the big events you need to dangle a carrot or two by telling them that big names will compete and millions will watch. What you don't do is to alienate all or most of the established sponsors/entrants/investors in a sport in the hope that you can create a new demand and a new following without some kind of negotiation or compromise. DMG have shown that compromise with the factories is unlikely and are arrogant enough to think they can do it all without industry backing. They now decied to completely ignore the director of racing for the AMA at their annual awards banquet, just to alienate another important party. Get over it. It's NOT a 600 class, if it was, it would have been called a 600cc class, and the rules would have been built to only allow 600cc bikes. Yes you are right. I should have been much more specific. It is a 600 class with a few well chosen exceptions just to make it look like it isn't a 600 class. If it were as you sugest a general 'sportbike' class then the list of eligible bikes would be huge and would include many more manufacturers models that are currently not included. The current list of eligible makes is I believe (And I stand to be corrected): Aprilia, BMW, Buell, Ducati, Honda, Kawasaki, KTM, Suzuki, Triumph and Yamaha. Of those, Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki and Yamaha all field 600cc bikes. Of the rest (at the sharp end of the field) there have been two Aprilias (not there next year), One KTM (only the SD allowed mid season, which is hardly a sportsbike), No BMW's that I have seen, Any Triumphs? (The 675 is treated as a SUpersport 600 bike elsewhere anyway) One Ducati 848 and of course the Buells. If it were a true general Sportbike class then where are all the other sportsbikes regardless of make/model, provided they can make the bhp/weight restrictions? With a few notable exceptions it is a 600cc class by another name, like it or not. | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
There are only certain models (not brands) homologated for Daytona Sportbike. Currently approved models (as of 7.13.09) are: Buell 1125R Honda CBR600RR Honda CBR600RR ABS Kawasaki ZX-6R Suzuki GSX-R600 Yamaha YZF-R6 Aprilia RSV1000R Aprilia RSV1000R Factory Triumph Daytona 675 Ducati 848 KTM 990 Super Duke From the Daytona Sportbike rules: Daytona SportBike Equipment Standards This section contains equipment standards for the Daytona SportBike class. The motorcycles are based on modified production four-stroke street motorcycles with an emphasis on equipment diversity and competitive balance. If it becomes apparent that one type or model of motorcycle gains an unfair performance advantage, AMA Pro Racing reserves at any time the right to implement restrictions including but not limited to adding or reducing weight to that type or model of motorcycle to restore competitive balance. This class offers a diversity of engine configurations and displacement limits. In addition, every motorcycle entered must meet the requirements listed in General Equipment Standards. | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
http://www.amaproracing.com/assets/RR_ApprovedMoto rcycles.pdf | ||
| Duggram |
I thought that each manufacturer had to apply for homologation to be added to the list and when they did they had to specify which model they wanted in. I can't find anywhere in the rule book or the application for homologation to DSB where it says that there is a minimum or maximum displacement for the class. It only says the engine must be 4-stroke. It does say it can be 2, 3 or 4 cylinder. Manufacturers had the opportunity to apply for homologation on any model they make for the streets of the USA. I don't see how you can say DSB is a 600 class. | ||
| Gregtonn |
"To get sponsors interested in funding the big events you need to dangle a carrot or two by telling them that big names will compete and millions will watch." That is true of event sponsors. Race team sponsors are much more interested in a rider who is going to carry their logo at the front of the pack. Who, at the beginning of this season, would have picked any of the top three in DSB with the possible exception of Herrin? Some will be entertained by couple of "big names" running away with the race on the same factory bikes. Most would rather see several less well known riders and different brands in intense competition swapping the lead until they get to the checkered flag. But I digress. Back to the original question. What can be done to improve the series for 2010? G | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
Duggram - That's my understanding of it too. It'd be interesting if a few others applied for homologation - eg BMW with the HP2 Sport, maybe even the GSXR750 (with of course a higher minimum weight than the 600) | ||
| Duggram |
Actually I've seen a few references that say the BMW HP2 Sport is already homologated. No one wanted to enter it. | ||
| Dentguy |
If the HP2 was approved for Sportbike, I would assume it would be on the list, but maybe not. It is approved for GT1. I would like to know all the models that applied for Sportbike class and who, if any, got turned down. (Message edited by dentguy on September 10, 2009) | ||
| 46champ |
The only bike I remember that was on the original list put out by DMG that was removed later was the GSXR 750. | ||
| Elvis |
I think that list really emphasizes how the rules structure of the past 10-20 years have given and advantage to inline 4's to the point nobody has even tried to develop a competitive twin. And as the 4's developed, they pulled light-years ahead of the twins to the point that even the best twins can't compete even with 400 cc extra displacement. That list includes the best Sporting twins I know of other than Superbikes . . .which is sort of sad. As a fan of twins, I like the idea that DMG is trying to get them involved, but I have a problem with their strategy from a long-term perspective. There has to be some structure or nobody is going to develop anything. Honda could probably make a 1000 cc twin that could blow the competition away, but they certainly won't do it just to find out that DMG won't let them compete (since inclusion seems to be on DMG's whim rather than any firm, long-term set of rules who's to say what will or won't be eligible over the next 10 years). So I applaud DMG's effort to mix things up, but I also recognize the need for structure if we really want manufacturers to develop serious sporting twins. That's why I went with the 850 cc limit. I think that 850 cc twins could be developed by companies like KTM, Ducati, Aprilia and Buell as long as they know they will have a venue to compete. | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
Aren't you forgetting numerous Ducati championships and Honda's RC51? I do agree though in that most classes have narrow criteria - maximum 4 cylinders, some sort of balance for twins through either weight or capacity. Only sometimes do the rules allow for triples, but not singles, fives, sixes or eights  Maybe the HP2 hasn't been included because of price? The homologated bikes are all relatuvely close in price. | ||
| Jaimec |
The HP2 is legal. No one bothered to enter one. Maybe if they did, with it's greater displacement than the Buell, the criticism would've been blunted towards the 1125R. Or maybe BMW saw that there was no way they could "win" (the same reasoning I pointed out that the 1125R couldn't "win") and decided they didn't want to be involved. Besides, they have bigger fish to fry in WSBK with the S1000RR. | ||
| Fast2win |
I pretty sure an HP2 sport was on the list ,dont' now why no one raced one. Maybe BMW is to busy with their new 4cyl.To bad. | ||
| Fast2win |
On the new moto2 class. This could be another way for Buell to show off it's ability to build great chassis on a one off basis. The frames do not have to be production basis, so they can build them without regards to epa regs or manufacturing etc. I fully expect to see Buell on the podium next year in Superbike, and more crying from the Jap crowd. | ||
| Jaimec |
Fast2win: NOW you're talking! Erik is a chassis/suspension specialist. I'd LOVE to see what he could come up with in the Moto2 class!! | ||
| Avc8130 |
I wonder if the mothership would approve of Erik building chassis for Honda motors... ac | ||
| Liquorwhere |
I wonder if the mothership would approve of Erik building chassis for Honda motors... ac That class hopefully will showcase the importance of handling, suspension and the rider, I am not a huge fan of the idea, but it is what it is, as far as the Moco is concerned, if they are that put out by it why did they allow an Austrian motor in the 1125R as opposed to one built by Buell?? I don't think it would be a problem, but it would put the chassis on the world stage. Still, I am not a big fan of the idea of the Moto2 set up with a spec motor from a single supplier, but it is what it is..... | ||
| Trojan |
Moto2 is definitely the way forward in international and national racing, and both the AMA and Buell should look at getting into the party. It is such a simple format that any national organiser could set up up a Moto2 series either as a stand alone championship (although I doubt that will happen for a couple of years until numbers increase) or as a class inside an existing Superbike or other series. The Spanish have already accepted Moto2 bikes into their Formula Extreme and the Japanese have said that Moto2 bikes will be eligible to run in the Japanese Superbike series in 2010. Organisers (including the UK ACU) need to get on board or miss the bus. Moto2 will become the accepted structure for riders to get into MotoGP over the next couple of years, and I think we'll see a lot of riders shun Superbikes in order to get into Moto2 sooner. Already we have seen Cal Crutchlow (leading the World Supersport series) offered a ride with Gresini in Moto2 next year and probably turning down a factory Yamaha Superbike to go there. Unless other national organisers jump onboard we will see another glut of riders coming through the Spanish racing system into GP's. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Buell in Moto2 would be really great !! Buell is all about chassis and ZTL. Moto2 might be the easiest and most efficient way to race success in the world stage for Buell. | ||
| Trojan |
Moto2 might be the easiest and most efficient way to race success in the world stage for Buell. Likewise for most low volume manufacturers. Bimota are making a Moto2 bike, as are a lot of other frame specialists (Harris/Suter/Moriwaki/Kozono/AJR amongst others) | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
Although it's probably a great idea, and will probably make great racing, I think the concept of Moto2 is a shame. To me "Grand Prix" racing was always about being the pinnacle of technology, letting designers and engineers have free reign to try and build the best racing motorcycles they could. While the idea of a control engine is great, it will force designs in directions to suit that engine. Then again I wish the FIM had never restricted the number of cylinders and gears. Maybe I'm old fashioned , but I wish there was a series that allowed adventurous ideas like the Honda sixes and Guzzi V8 and the original Yamaha 125 V-4 with nine-speed gearbox... Have they confirmed the displacement? Will it be 600cc? | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Moto2 engines are 600cc IL4s by Honda tuned for 160hp. This is a very compact engine that will allow many different chassis designs. Moto2 idea is the best news for racing in the last 20 years. How many manufacturers have the ability to built and develop a racing engine for the world stage and be competitive against the jap giants ?? Maybe 1 or 2. The cost is really big. I think bikers concentrate too much on the engine. Chassis, brakes, suspension are also equaly important. I hope Buell sees the opportunity and goes for it, to get close to the world market by racing in a world series. | ||
| Not_purple_s2 |
GSXR-750 running in DSB.... hmmmm That would be very interesting. | ||
| Not_purple_s2 |
Also it looks like Bimota is building a chassis for Moto2. | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
This is a very compact engine that will allow many different chassis designs. I don't doubt it, but if there were v-twins, triples, v-4's, singles, v-5's, there would more options. Moto2 idea is the best news for racing in the last 20 years. How many manufacturers have the ability to built and develop a racing engine for the world stage and be competitive against the jap giants ?? Maybe 1 or 2. The cost is really big. Yes, the cost is enormous, however Aprilia, Gilera, Derbi and Ducati have proved the Japanese four are not undefeatable, and that's just in the last 10 years. I think bikers concentrate too much on the engine. Chassis, brakes, suspension are also equaly important. I've always seen Grand Prix as a series which is as much about the bikes as the riders, and as much about the engines as the chassis. I think Moto2 will leave GP125 and MotoGP as the only road racing classes with prototype engines. I hope Buell sees the opportunity and goes for it, to get close to the world market by racing in a world series. It makes perfect sense for a company like Bimota, but would it make sense for Buell to be seen racing with someone elses engine? |
