| Author | Message | ||
     Hosephnj |
I thought Buells were very popular in europe? I saw a HD in the line up. Maybe next year I guess. That McGuiness is fast. Holy s%#t was he amazing to watch. They are all very talented and a crazy. To do that on public roads you gotta have brass ones. (Message edited by hosephnj on July 28, 2009) | ||
| Fresnobuell |
My guess is the horsepower to displacement of the V-twin is not ideal for the IOM. It's a HP race and IL4 dominated. | ||
| Hosephnj |
yeah but they also have a 600 class. Im just surprised to not see any. I mean someone ran a harley. | ||
| Avc8130 |
Can you run an 1125 in the 600 class?  | ||
| Fresnobuell |
How did I know someone would bring that up....  | ||
| Davegess |
Buell has not yet really pursued anything on an international scale. They have done well in some national series in Europe but the TT is a whole different animal. There was an effort by kevin Ago Murphy, who pops in here occasionally, purchased a XB from Trojan and attempted to get it accepted in the TT but the organizers felt he was getting a bit slow (I wish I was as slow as him 110 plus mph around that place takes balls) so the bike never got a chance but I doubt that it would have had the top speed to qualify. The 1125 would be a good mount there but it would need some work as the bikes it would be running against would be full on world superbike spec with several full factory machines. The American Superbike spec bike would be down twenty HP and give away a lot in the whole suspension spec area. That said a full WSBK bike could be built and I think would be very competitive around that place EXCEPT you would need to get a top rider with experience and those guys are all spoken for. They have season long rides in BSB or Irish SB and you would not get them for one race. I am sure Erik would love to do it but if Buell is going to spend that kind of money on racing i think they would go right to WSBK. | ||
| Rsh |
Last year there was a guy with the screen name "Irishago" who wanted to race a Buell in the TT. IIRC he was going to race the Adrenalin Moto Buell that Trojan had built and raced. He was billing his effort as an historic event, the first ever Buell in the Isle of Man TT race. Search "Irishago" in the archives if interested. | ||
| Trojan |
There is no natural class for a Buell to fit into in road racing over here, especially IOM racing. The biggest difficulty though is that Buell UK have absolutely no interest whatsoever in promoting racing or being involved in it. Trying to get them to support any racing venture with a Buell is almost an impossibility, and running a full on attempt at the IOM would need considerable resources and support from the distributor/manufacturer. Unless the factory were to get involved I can't see it happening. Irish Ago was to have raced our XB12 in the 2007 TT but due to various political decisions he didn't get an entry so the bike is (as far as Iknow) still sitting in an office on the Island having not turned a wheel since we sold it  | ||
| Davegess |
- having not turned a wheel since we sold it - Oh it has turned a wheel or two, those Manxman have been known to take a race bike over the mountain road early in the morning. Irish Ago is Keven Murphy and Matt is correct, he kind of got caught in the efforts to make changes how the TT is operated. He was not allowed to try and qualify on the Buell. Matt is also correct about the British importer not being interested in racing. Don't know why. As far as a class for a Buell the 1125 would fit in one of the super bike classes what with the new 1200 cc rule. It would need to be seriously built up however as these machines are not even close to stock. I would love to see it happen but it seems unlikely. Buell as a factory is not going racing, just supporting privateers. 12,000 bike a years is not enough to support a full factory effort and Buell will need to build this slowly from the bottom up. | ||
| Trojan |
The Isle of Man is incredibly hard on machinery, especially the longer Superbike races. To get an 1125 up to race pace would need a supreme effort and a big budget, so would have to be done by one of the major teams. The problem is that motorcycle racers are a conservative bunch and tend to buy and race what they know is already competitive (just look at how many GSXR1000 runners are in AMA Superbike!). Until someone proves that the Buell 1125 can be a race winner, or at least competitive, against other unlimited 1000/1200 Superbikes (rather than restriced AMA Superbikes or Sportbike) I can't see anyone risking thousands of pounds in developing one over here just to be beaten by R1's etc. Don't think I'm knocking the potential of the 1125, but it would be a brave team who went out on a limb to race one here without factory support when they can run a Honda/Yamaha/Suzuki and know they will be competitive immediately (without the need to develop their own parts for it). | ||
| Liquorwhere |
All good and valid points, but it was cool to see Michael Dunlop win on the Norton...so a smaller race team is possible, just has to be the "perfect storm" so to speak for involvement, rider, funding...etc etc.... | ||
| Firstbuell |
liq, very good point on that storied string of Nortons - get past the organizers with an oddball machine like an 1125RRrr & THEN it gets tough !! RE: appropriate riders - while most all top riders are indeed contracted, there already exist repeat US silver-medalist & Macau veterans + Jeremy McWilliams-vetted UK journeyman riders the same monied US enthusiast[s] who didn't rescue Kenny Dreer's Norton venture could easily fund a Buell side effort for IoM, one with modest expectations the 1st couple of years anyway what a fantasy this thread is - I love it..... | ||
| Fresnobuell |
are 1200cc twins allowed in the TT Superbike class? | ||
| Blake |
>>> Until someone proves that the Buell 1125 can be a race winner, or at least competitive, against other unlimited 1000/1200 Superbikes (rather than restricted AMA Superbikes or Sportbike) I can't see anyone risking thousands of pounds in developing one over here just to be beaten by R1's etc. I believe all superbike tech rules have restrictions, but the only series that actually mandates an engine "restrictor" is WSBK. WSBK requires that the factory built race-only Ducati 1198R F09 entries be fitted with the same type of intake restrictor that NASCAR requires. If a machine must first be "proven" competitive before entring a race, then how does any machine ever get proven? Let's figure a way. What would you say to working up the ladder one rung at a time. Start with a formula/stock effort, then advance to the next level, a superstock/AMA SBK effort, then on to WSBK. So where are we relative to such a plan, just past halfway through the 1125's first race season? What percentage of IOM competitors are thinking that they are competing for the podium? Why does the rest of the field race? Why did Irish Ago want to race a Buell in the TT? Shawn Higbee has raced Macau. | ||
| Trojan |
All good and valid points, but it was cool to see Michael Dunlop win on the Norton... That woulod have been a fairy story. However the truth is that the Norton only managed 9 miles in TT practice before expiring the first day. The second day Dunlop stopped it half way round the course because he thought it was unrideable. he never qualified for the race on it and it was packed up and sent home again. If a machine must first be "proven" competitive before entring a race, then how does any machine ever get proven? Usually when the manufacturer that made it fields a factory team and proves that the bike is competitive. This is the established way of making race bikes competitive and passing information and technology to privateer teams who then buy the bike on the success of the factory (as per the aforementioned GSXR1000). Buell have chosen to do it the other way round so it will take a lot longer (if at all) for the message to get around that a Buell 1125 can be competitive in a major championship outside of the somewhat strangely structured environment of AMA competition. Until somebody like the importer or the factory is brave enough to race one here in a major Superbike championship, AND have success, then no privateers will be volunteering to be the first to try. Rules outside the AMA are not written to encourage Buell (or Benelli or Triumph or any other 'minor manufacturer') to be succesful against the big 4 Jap companies by giving them significant advantages, so there is no advantage in any cash strapped privateer team being the pioneer when they can be at the front on a relatively stock R1. | ||
| Liquorwhere |
That woulod have been a fairy story. However the truth is that the Norton only managed 9 miles in TT practice before expiring the first day. The second day Dunlop stopped it half way round the course because he thought it was unrideable. he never qualified for the race on it and it was packed up and sent home again. Dammit man...I read he won the superstock race two in Roadracing Ireland mag my buddy brought back from Dublin, it showed him two wheels off on the Norton and the article was illustrating the pressure he had on him and the slights of the MCUI, I didn't realize he had switched to the Yamaha for the race. My bad....but I will get to see it in the coming weeks on DiscHD | ||
| Davegess |
Blake I think you are misunderstanding Matt's "Until someone proves". The point is that it is tough to get the big names and big money folks behind you until after you have been sucessful. You certainly don't need to be proven to be entered; you just are unlikely to hire a Rossi/Bugess combo to race your bike without some serious credentials. Buell is doing this the only way they can, slowing by starting small. Actaully they are not going all that slowly. 5 years ago the only Buells on the race track anywhere were pretty much club racers. today we have a major sponser running several bikes in the top twop classes in the US. Still not where I, or for that matter Erik I suspect, wants them to be BUT is moving in the right direction at a pretty good pace. As far as a rider, I don't think McWilliams does road circuts does he? The handful of Americans who have run the TT are pretty much too slow to do a manufacturer any good. Showoing up and finishing 20th will not help sell bikes. Matt has it spot on you will need enough money AND a competitive bike to hire a top team. You have to commit to a schedule of more than just one race also. For that kind of money you could be in the WSBK series and get some real coverage, the TT is unfortunatly (as much as I love it) a bit of a sideshow these days. Anyone got a spare 10 million bucks lying about? I bet I could get Buell to sell us some bikes and we could sign up a top notch race team and rider to use in the WSBK series if we had that kind of cash  | ||
| Court |
Fun stuff. (Message edited by court on July 29, 2009) | ||
| Hosephnj |
I Just hope next year someone steps up. You see what Buell is capeable of the first year out in AMA. Just imagine what we could do on the international scene. 1125RR... Just qualify thats all. Then win t all. WSBK will always be there. One race once a year one country thats what its all about. | ||
| Trojan |
I Just hope next year someone steps up. You see what Buell is capeable of the first year out in AMA. Just imagine what we could do on the international scene. 1125RR... Just qualify thats all. Then win t all. WSBK will always be there. One race once a year one country thats what its all about. I think we would all like to see a major team campaign a Buell in international top class racing. Unfortunately the rules outside the US don't lend themselves to the 1125R (or even RR) as nicely as the AMA rules currently do. Buell would have to produce a 1200cc version of the motor to be in with any chance of being competitive in WSB, and would then also have to produce at least 500 (I think) road versions of them to be eligible for Superbike competition. At present the 1125RR would not be eligible for Superbike racing over here because the rules would be interpreted very differently I'm afraid (unless or until Buell make a 1125RR road version with the same modifications) but they could retro fit the same parts to an existing 1125R to be legal (semantics I know, but important). Outside of Superbike racing there really isn't a class with enough publicity or general 'clout' to attract the big teams, so it is either jump in with both feet or not at all. There are various club level Sound of Thunder/BoTT/Supertwins classes that the 1125 could do reasonably well in, but none get any TV time or publicity so it wouldn't be worth a major team getting involved. | ||
| Davegess |
You could take an 1125 and build it to WSBK specs. It would actually be a far tricker bike than the 1125RR BUT you would need to have it start as an 1125R. I am afraid that it would suffer from a serious HP deficency compared to the Ducatis at 1198cc. Before that step is taken I think winning in the AMA Superbike class will have to happen. One step at a time. | ||
| Blake |
Semantics are important?  Mate. I'd agree that the extra 6.7% displacement would benefit the 1125R no matter where it races against four cylinder literbikes. Why should it be more vital in WSBK than elsewhere? Maybe the restrictor plates mandated for the 1200cc Ducati factory produced race-only machines in effect equates to a loss of that same 6.7%? If so, then the Rotax powered Buell can skip the restrictor plates and be competitive. They'll likely most need some more revs in order to match the Duc racing engine performance. | ||
| Blake |
Any idea what the Ducati Factory Race-Only 1198R F09 is revving too these days? Did Ducati build 500 of the 1198R F09 machines? | ||
| Davegess |
Heck BMW has not yet built, so at least not yet allowed the public to buy the 500 superbikes they had to make. Seems like a pretty good deal, you can promise to make the 500 bikes and get homolugated based on that promise. Back in my day peopel like Ferrari would show enough parts to build the required number of cars to be legal. Of course those parts would not end up in the proper kind of car but is was a car. All sorts of shenanigans going on back in the 60s and 70s, maybe thats why I don't even bat an eyelash at stuff like the 1125RR. Blake, It would be great fun to see a WSBK Buell. Matt could answer this; if they keep the 1125 displacement could you build a WSBK legal bike? Assuming for a minute that an 1125 tuned to WSBK specs would have enough power, would the rest of the package be competive or do they really need to make a special just to compete? (Message edited by davegess on July 30, 2009) | ||
| Davegess |
Hey Blake I sent you a PM, give me a call when you can. | ||
| Trojan |
Maybe the restrictor plates mandated for the 1200cc Ducati factory produced race-only machines in effect equates to a loss of that same 6.7%? If so, then the Rotax powered Buell can skip the restrictor plates and be competitive. They'll likely most need some more revs in order to match the Duc racing engine performance. I think if the restrictor plates were too restrictive then Ducati would have reverted to the 1098 and removed the plates (or built a slightly larger 1098 without going to 1200), so I would ghuess that they lose far less than 6.7%. I think the restrictor plates are a bit of a red herring to be honest, given that the Ducati is as fast as it was without them anyway If 1125 was big enough then Ducati/KTM etc would be running 1125 in WSB. In theory Buell could run an 1125cc WSB contender with the RR bits bolted on (and a few more tuning parts that are allowed under WSB but not under AMA rules). Forks, shocks, swingarms etc can all be changed under WSB rules so there is far more latitude than under the AMA. Handling wise there is no reason why it couldn't be made competitive with the rest of the field. The big question though would be, can Buell get the bike up to a relaible race long 210+bhp, and crucially could they develop the electronics required in order to be competitive with the rest of the WSB field? The biggest question of all though would have to be; Has H-D got the balls to sanction it? | ||
| Davegess |
H-D, particularly in this economy are not gonna toss any money about. If Buell can win in AMA and then come up with a deal like they have with RMR and Geico they could go to WBSK but it would require an outside sponsor to pay most of the bills. The reality is that Buell operates as a stand alone company and the racing has to paid out of the proceeds from the sales of Buell. Erik does not want and H-D won't subsidize the Buell operation. The long term good of Buell requires this. Just look at the current economy, if Buell had never gotten to a profit position you have to wonder how long they would survive the cuts the H-D is making to maintain it's profit. | ||
| Blake |
I don't buy that Ducati would only ask for just enough displacement to allow them to be competitive. They were competitive with equal displacement at 1000 cc. Are you really saying that the restrictor plates on the Ducati factory race-only WSBK machines is of no consequence? | ||
| Trojan |
I don't buy that Ducati would only ask for just enough displacement to allow them to be competitive. They were competitive with equal displacement at 1000 cc. Are you really saying that the restrictor plates on the Ducati factory race-only WSBK machines is of no consequence? Ducati asked for 1200cc so that they could be competitive at lower cost than the 'old' 999 motors were costing. Part of their argument was that 'if the cost to run a Ducati is less then you will get more privateer Ducati teams on the grid in WSB/BSB'. That certainly didn't happen! It was the organisers who introduced the restrictors when it appeared that the 1200cc Ducatis were going to run away with the series at the expense of the Jap 1000's, but to be honest the restrictors haven't had too much affect on speeds because the electronics are now so efficient that you get more drive from a restricted 1200 than you did with a fire breathing 'full power' electronics free 1200 twin. Now the bike is able to use all of the power without wheel spin or wheelies because the electronics control it all, just like in MotoGP. Even when the rules get changed to limit electronics to those fitted to road bikes the factories aren't worried, they just build a few more homologation specials with all the bells and whistles | ||
| Blake |
So then without the restrictor plates, the Ducati factory built race-only WSBK machines would be even faster due to the electronics, yes? Well, don't all the competitors have the option to employ electronic traction control? |
