| Author | Message | ||
     Xb12mel |
So, Cardenas has won four straight huh? Where are the cry babies wondering why the Suzuki's are doing so well? And they're finishing one, two! Will there be any rule changes? any added weight? Just curious? Funny how Hacking is no longer making excuses for not winning. I mean, he's not won a race all year. But somehow he's humble now. Sure, I'm a little sour that the camera's can't seem to find a single Buell to show during the race. But what bothers me most is how there was some serious finger pointing just a few weeks ago and now just silence. I guess the planets have aligned and everyone is happy with the way things are because that's what they're use to. Go Buell Racing! Shake up the status quo! Get back on the Podium!  | ||
| Crusty |
Road America is this weekend. Usually, when I'm at a race, the bike I want to win doesn't. I hope this weekend is the exception to that rule. GO BUELL RACING!!! | ||
| Macdiver |
Crusty, Please root for Cardenas and everyone not riding a Buell. | ||
| Bott |
time to add 15 pounds to the suzuk's.... | ||
| Elfrippo |
The Buell had an obvious power-to-weight ratio advantage. Maybe they still do, but people are obviously not going to care about it if they are way down in the field. Suzuki are not using an engine almost twice the size of the competition, and they don't seem to have an obvious advantage in acceleration. The bike is just better in other areas, fair and square. That's why people are not complaining. (Message edited by Elfrippo on June 03, 2009) | ||
| Fresnobuell |
The Buell had an obvious power-to-weight ratio advantage. Get your facts straight first before you go spouting off. The factory 600s have a better weight to power ratio. Buell has a torque advantage and that's why they seem to leap off the corners and out accelerate the 600s. You do realize that the Buell has never had the fastest lap or top speed at any of the circuits thusfar? Too bad the AMA didn't goto Miller. I think Danny would have dominated at that track--fast and flowing which suits the Buell well. | ||
| Jimidan |
"The Buell had an obvious power-to-weight ratio advantage." The factory 600s have a better weight to power ratio. I have not seen the actual results of the power-to-weight ratios that AMA did on the bikes. Has anybody else seen that listed somewhere? | ||
| Elfrippo |
Get your facts straight first before you go spouting off. The factory 600s have a better weight to power ratio. Buell has a torque advantage and that's why they seem to leap off the corners and out accelerate the 600s. I don't agree. The Buells don't just leap off the corners quicker, they accelerate quicker for the most part of the longer straights. The 600s seem to have slightly better aerodynamics though, making them competitive in absolute top speed. Have you already forgotten that AMA dyno tested all the top bikes? One bike had a significant (10%) power advantage over all the other bikes. It would be foolish to think that a 600cc bike held that advantage over the other 600s, let alone the Buell. The 600 class is very competitive, and you're not going to find one with a 10% horsepower advantage over the others, especially not in this class, where the engines have a pretty low level of tuning. I know you love Buell, but lets face it: If any bike in that class has a 10% power-to-weight ratio advantage it is the Buell. We have seen plenty of track footage to support that. Not on any occasion have I seen footage that would support the claim that the 600s have a better power-to-weight ratio. They do have a slightly (just slightly) higher top speed, but that's down to aerodynamics. A stock Yamaha R6 is 20hp down on the 1125R but still reaches the same top speed, which clearly shows the Buell has worse aerodynamics, but still more power, which means it will accelerate better until it reaches really high speeds. (Message edited by Elfrippo on June 03, 2009) (Message edited by Elfrippo on June 03, 2009) | ||
| Smoke |
the real meat of the matter is proven in the results. at this time the points leader is Cardenas with 5 wins! Hacking is 2nd and Eslick 3rd. the Aprilia is in 6th with Davies on board. the class looks fair to me!! Go Buell Racing!! http://www.amaproracing.com/rr/events/standings.cf m?class=ds tim | ||
| Court |
The aerodynamics of the Buell 1125R are far superior to those of the Yamaha R1. I am not familiar with the numbers for the current 1125R but the Buell RR had some of the best aerodynamics numbers ever recorded for a vehicle, car or motorcycle. It's part of the reason that other brands seek Buell bodywork for use at Bonneville. I don't know the numbers but my suspicion is that nothing even comes close to the aerodynamics of the Buell 1125R. | ||
| Elfrippo |
The aerodynamics of the Buell 1125R are far superior to those of the Yamaha R1. Like I said, the R6 is down about 20hp and according to you it can't match the aerodynamics of the Buell. So why then does the Yamaha have the same top speed (168-170mph)? (Message edited by Elfrippo on June 03, 2009) | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
A stock Yamaha R6 is 20hp down on the 1125R... You may have partially answered your own question- most "stock" 1125's on this forum have dyno numbers ranging from 112-123 hp at the rear wheel. The race bikes only have race exhaust and ECU- the engine is completely stock. What are the factory 600's really producing, and how do they do it? Privateer 600 racers have complained for years that the factory 600's have a big power advantage- and it appears DSB is proving this. As I have asked before, if the "unfairly advantaged" 1125cc Buell and 998cc Aprilia have to struggle to compete with factory 600cc bikes- who really has the advantage here? | ||
| Elfrippo |
Redbuelljunkie: You should read this thread: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/158 664/458939.html?1242181242 +20hp and almost 140hp. The Buell race bike makes no 123hp, that's for sure. If a customer bike with little dyno tuning an no race air filter makes almost 140hp you can bet the Buell race bike makes atleast 145hp, which means its power-to-weight ratio is disturbingly close to that of the best bike tested during AMAs dyno session. (Message edited by Elfrippo on June 03, 2009) | ||
| Elfrippo |
Fresnobuell: I just read something interesting on the WERA boards (the 13x forums). According to an insider the 600s made 119-124 hp on the dyno at Barber. So tell me again that the Buell does not have a power advantage... (Message edited by Elfrippo on June 03, 2009) | ||
| Fresnobuell |
I just read something interesting on the WERA boards (the 13x forums). According to an insider the 600s made 119-124 hp on the dyno at Barber. So tell me again that the Buell does not have a power advantage... The Buell does have the power advantage. Who is disputing that? Weight to power is the issue. Great job at finding Internet rumor about the AMA tests. | ||
| Elfrippo |
The Buell does have the power advantage. Who is disputing that? Weight to power is the issue. Great job at finding Internet rumor about the AMA tests. I meant power-to-weight ratio. You can look in the thread below for the "rumor". The person writing it is none other than Road Racing Worlds editor John Ulrich. Look at post #88: http://forums.13x.com/showthread.php?t=216493} I can't say I have any reasons to doubt the editor of RRW. If he says the 600s were between 119-124hp I believe it. After all, he has access to the paddock and talks to the people there. I don't think he would risk the magazines reputation by posting lies on a forum. It also sounds reasonable. We all know from AMAs dyno tests at Barber that one particular bike had a serious power-to-weight ratio advantage over the competition. Rocky Stargel of KWS has already stated that it wasn't their Aprilia, and I've been saying all along that no 600 has that big of an advantage over the others. If the Buell at 395 lbs would have the same power-to-weight ratio as a 124hp, 365 lbs 600cc bike, it would have just 134hp. Everything over 134hp would mean the Buell has a better power-to-weight ratio than the 600s. You and me both know that the Buell makes more than 134hp in race trim. (Message edited by Elfrippo on June 03, 2009) | ||
| Duggram |
Elfri, you also need to look at JU's posts #142 & 147 for level headed comments on the positives of the DSP class. If you're a racer the class works. If you're an unreasonable spectator that can only see things your way (like Povol), it won't work for you. You'll be constantly trying to rationalize your point of why the class is all wrong, even when it's working. | ||
| Elfrippo |
Then you and me (and obviously Ulrich in this case) have a different way of seeing things. This is a championship with a large variety of machines. The most fundamental aspect in such a series is keeping the power-to-weight ratios even. That's the starting point. The fact that the Buell doesn't have the fastest lap times doesn't justify it having a better power-to-weight ratio. Buell have always been about superior handling, now is the time for Erik to step up and show that his bikes don't need an acceleration advantage to win races. This is a horsepower limited series, not a series where slower lapping bikes are allowed to have a power-to-weight ratio advantage in order to keep things "even". Should the backmarkers be allowed to up their horsepower to keep up with the front guys too? Of course not. That's not how you build a racing series. If Buell can't keep up with the other bikes with equal power-to-weight ratio then it's back to the garage to improve the other aspects of the bike. (Message edited by Elfrippo on June 03, 2009) | ||
| Duggram |
I don't understand your point. The series is working as designed and you want it redesigned to your liking? BTW where does it say in the rules that it's a horsepower limited series? | ||
| Sd26 |
Well, originally, it was proposed, as you say it, a horsepower limited series. It isn't. That was scrapped to get the American Suzuki, Yamaha USA, American Honda, and Kawasaki USA to play with some gusto like they had before. Other manufacturers that don't produce a standard 600/4 were given an opportunity to homologize, just like the Japanese manufacturers. Now, as a motorcycle racer, first thing to recognize is that there isn't going to be anything that is necessarily fair. However, I really would have loved to have had this opportunity years ago when I was an AMA Supersport regular. John Ulrich's bikes have won races in the AMA premier class. Before, he was struggling to get kit swingarms from Suzuki in Japan or direct from Yosh. When he got Harris swingarms, there were some pissed off people in the Suzuki higher ups. Ducati's enjoyed a continued advantage in displacement and production numbers pretty much forever. It's been a good series. Does that lead one to believe that WSB sucks? Really, it's done a lot for Ducati. Aprilia even. These are street bikes. They aren't the same, they aren't purpose built, and they don't cost $1,000,000 and have $120,000 forks that one can't obtain for $250,000 or more. Why is that bad? Or is it just bad that one riders on one team on a Buell has won premier AMA races? I thought the AMA racing didn't matter to the rest of the global racing community? | ||
| Court |
I'm lost . . . how could you make this series . . . with like 6 different brands in the top 10 places . . . more "even"? | ||
| Elfrippo |
Okay bad wording. The series is not horsepower limited, but the goal is to have bikes with similar power-to-weight ratios. That's why the Ducati 1098 is not allowed, even though it has less displacement than the 1125R. (Message edited by Elfrippo on June 03, 2009) | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
Elf- I did read that thread. I will ask again, and as many times as it takes until someone can intelligently answer the question, why the bike with the "unfair advantage" has not had the fastest lap time, top speed, or been on the podium more often than bikes half its displacement? Elf- you might want to read this thread: http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php? t=174366. It's quite long, but a worthwhile read. Most members of the Aprilia forum think it's not fair that the Buell has a displacement advantage, but somehow their 998cc twin is ok. The most important posts to read are by Chip@KWS (race team manager of KWS Motorsports- the factory Aprilia team in DSB). After listening to all the whining by forum members about the alleged Buell "unfair advantage", he comes right out and says it- DSB is one of the most evenly matched series in AMA history. Amazingly, a host of arm chair racers then proceed to argue with him- very similar to what we see here. Some people just won't let facts get in the way. If someone has actually watched all of the races, and still concludes that the bikes aren't even, there is no point in discussing it any further- they obviously have an ulterior motive. | ||
| Smilesracing |
My race ready 1125R with lighter wheels and the Buell race pipe still weighs nearly 430lbs!!! With 128.8 rear wheel hp!!! So I don't know how Buell is gonna get the 1125R down to even close to 400lbs WITHOUT custom "1off" MotoGP style lightweight parts???? But its easy to get a 600 close to 370ish lbs by removing all the street garbage. I think the class is pretty even. Eslick is simply not getting the credit for riding his ass off. Obviously the extra weight of the 1125 makes it harder to win at small tracks like Barber. No complains about the Aprilia getting faster all the time? At some point everyone needs to shut and race | ||
| Bads1 |
The last 3 races Eslick had to really battle the bike to do what he wanted. The tracks are alot tighter and much more direction changes. Road America though is a fast track and should benefit the Buell. I'm really think that if they have a good set up they podium both days. I'll be there as a Buell race fan. | ||
| Duggram |
Elfri, it's not a horsepower based series. Power to weight has nothing to do with it. Actually, it has more to do with results than anything else. That's why the AMA monitors results, trap speeds, and whatever else. You might want to pay attention to RedBuell and SD's posts. I'm sure that if you think about this with an open mind, and consider what the objective of the AMA is it will come to you. BTW when this series was proposed was it not the individual manufactures that selected which bikes from their make that would participate? For example couldn't Kawi have submitted the 636 for participation? | ||
| Black |
Elfrippo, Does this mean that the Japanese in-line 4s are using stock engines? What are their dyno values? | ||
| Smoke |
just fyi, in one of the wera threads it was stated that the RMR 1125R was weighed in at 397lb after the race. that means it started with some amount of gas and tire weight more than 397. the ama pro racing rulebook has the rules in writing that all can read and apply for the class wanting to be entered. all participants have an equal oppurtunity to enter the bike that they feel will have the best chance of being competitive in that class. right now, by points, suzuki, kawasaki and buell are in the top 3 points positions with suzuki in 4th, yamaha in 5th and 9th, aprilia in 6th and 7th, honda in 8th and 10th, buell in 11th etc. while i haven't been a DMG supporter, so far the racing between the competitors looks good to me. i would like more classes and also more extreme classes but we have what we have so send the suggestions to DMG that you would like to see incorporated. (NO ROLLING STARTS, NO SAFETY CARS AND NO YELLOW PARADE LAPS) A BETTER TV PACKAGE WOULD BE GOOD ALSO. thanks for your time! tim | ||
| Sd26 |
BTW when this series was proposed was it not the individual manufactures that selected which bikes from their make that would participate? For example couldn't Kawi have submitted the 636 for participation? Yes, and Roger submitted that the Suzuki GSXR750 would have had the opportunity for homologation under their original 3:1 HP ratio. The dyno enforced HP ratio would have probably limited some of the sales of the ECM's and stuff that the manufacturers of the Japanese bikes now are finally making available for sale to private teams and riders. Hard enough just to get a bike before Daytona let alone break it in and test it. Before, the manufacturer teams got their next season's bikes in September/October pretty much immediately after the last race. | ||
| Duggram |
Dave, thanks for the validation! Every time I read about the poor 600's on the WERA forum I think about this. |
