| Author | Message | ||
     Rocketman |
Elvis: You have it nailed. The XBRR has done and is doing some very valuable things for Buell. Elvis nailed nothing, and you don't speak for the XBRR program either, though you'd have us believe you're the official voice. In fact I'd go further, and say you're partly responsible for the misleading comments about the expected success of the XBRR. You're still making wild claims too, stating Buell will be a major force in world racing within 5 years. The XBRR is more of a flop because of your false representations. Rocket | ||
| Blake |
Sean, So you are saying that Buell is not learning valuable information from their XBRR efforts? How ludicrous to imagine such silliness. Your opinion is just that, your opinion. An opinion based upon ignorance isn't much of an opinion. Now all the enthusiasm expressed by Buell enthusiasts concerning the Buell XBRRs in racing is all Court's fault? LOL! Court is just another of us Buell enthusiasts is all. If you see fit to take his statements as representing those of Buell or Buell Racing, that is your mistake. Frankly, I'm sick and tired of coming to BadWeB for a little recreation and having to read people being derided and Buell being belittled. I wish you would stop it. | ||
| Jens |
The Hillbilly-Motors Raceteam is proud to announce to race an XBRR in the 2008 season -and not only that (-: I understand that the folks aiming on quick results, but developing a racebike need (track)time. Thats what I said from the beginning..... The experiences of the XBRR project are very well invested.... We are in the year 2 after Daytona.... The real show starts in 2008. Jens | ||
| Court |
Actually he kinda did nail it . . . it was a positive post that embodied both the hurt (pride and egos) many in the program have been dealt while celebrating the excitement driving so many things in the world of Buell. I thought it was fairly elegant. And right you are . . . I include with each and every correspondence a nifty disclaimer to make certain it's quite clear that I am not a Buell/HD employee, have no authority, either expressed or implied, to speak, act or receive information on behalf of the respective companies. I'm not even sure where they are actually located. I am a simple construction worker toiling for a living . . . . Buell will indeed be a name to be reckoned with in racing. Court | ||
| Rocketman |
So you are saying that Buell is not learning valuable information from their XBRR efforts? How can they be? Rocket | ||
| Thepup |
"The XB frame and geometry is the best solution introduced in the moto industry the last 20 years. The air-cooled engine is one of the reasons that the XB will never reach its 100% potential. " Vagelis46 this is the frame that was the biggest innovation in motorcycles in the last 20 years.  | ||
| M1combat |
That was certainly a step in the right direction Pup... But the XB takes it to another level... Do you think that you could hold the frame, fuel tank and tank mounting hardware of that fzr at arms length in one hand? You can with an XB frame... Not to mention the geometry... | ||
| Thepup |
M1,nice way to try to compare an XB to a 20 year old bike.That Yamaha was the model for most sportbike frames,including th XB's frame.What bike has had more influence on the modern sportbike,the FZR or the XB?Most people know the answer. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
The Jap frames of the late 80s and 90s were crap. I have owned many bikes from that era, and not very impressed. I think Jap frames are still crap (with some exceptions)! No feedback front the front, and too many flexes when pushed hard. Unless you commute..... | ||
| Trojan |
Ummm.... You can get a race reliable 140HP out of a 1350 XB engine. The rules say that you can use 1350cc. That's reasonably competitive as far as I know. What were the top speeds between McWilliams and Duhamel/Zempke in the '06 D200? I was standing there.... The RR was hauling ass. It was NOT being a rolling chicane on the back stretch. I watched every lap it ran and it was NOT losing distance around the bank. It wasn't needing HP and it wasn't the engine that killed it. The Buell may have been fast, but it didn't finish. When it has finished it has been well outside the top 6 places. Nobody outside of the hard line Buell enthusiasts will see that as competitive will they? Even with the XBRR's 'innovative' engineering it didn't do anything appreciably better than any of the other bikes it raced against (which we must remember are 600cc and MUCH more road based than the XBRR ever was, despite protestations from Buell and Blake). Did the single ZTL brake give the bike an advantage into turns? Did the frame make it handle better than the bikes that finished ahead of it? Did the huge capacity advantage give it more power than the rest of the field? Trojan.... The RR is a "competitive" bike. Put it against the rest of the privateers and it does reasonably well WRT lap times. A bike built by the factory specifically for a single race series cannot be considered competitive if you are only going to compare it to privateer bikes. The Daytona effort was no more a privateer effort than the other factory teams, but we have been through all this before haven't we. If the bikes are supplied direct from the factory, worked on by factory techs, sponsored by H-D, trucked back to the factory after the race then I think that qualifies as a factory effort no matter how you dress it up. If it walks like a duck.... WRT hype and speculation... What do you expect a manufacturer to do? Unveil a race bike and say "We don't think it has a chance, but here it is." You know that's not the way to do it and to be honest... If there was enough money behind a full on privateer effort it would do well against the privateers. If the Big Boss steps up and tells us that the factory is building a new race bike and that we should expect it to do well at Daytona, then that is what we should expect. What we got was a lot less than that. And it went rapidly down hill from there didn't it, with the bikes not even making it to a large proportion of the seasons races. Take off your Buell hat for a moment and try to see what this looks like from an outsiders point of view. A relatively major factory makes a major announcement that they are going racing and that the bike will be something special. Then after one pretty disastrous race they appear to back-pedal like crazy, telling us that it was only built as a privateer bike and the factory has no involvement etc. Regardless of how competitive the XBRR can be made to be eventually, it has been an unmitigated PR disaster for Buell. If people cannot see that then they mus be wearing the factory supplied rose tinted glasses. Matt, A moto Guzzi beat XBRRs at Daytona? Right, when through thoughtful sportsmanship the Buell XBRR racers who were only using the event for testing pulled over and graciously allowed the entire field to pass. Yet again an extremely niaive gesture that means nothing to race fans, and another PR disaster. Racing is about winning, and if the average punter sees a bike retire on the last lap do they think 'Oh what a sporting chap' or do they think 'What a POS it didn't make the finish'?. The fact is that the results will always show the Guzzi winning and the Buell retiring. The record books don't have a section devoted to noble gestures. Before his machine suffered breakdown, McWilliams had run well into the top 10, as high as sixth if I recall. Yet again, this means nothing when it comes to results does it. People remember the breakdown, not how high he got before it happened. 'Cherry picking' results from minor race series around the world whilst desperately trying to ignore major failures does nothing for the reputation of Buell or the XBRR. On the contrary it belittles it. | ||
| Jens |
Again, 100 time bigger companys than BMC had bad starts when they launch a new racebike. Again, we run (not talking about) ZTL2 Brake on the racebike with airscoop and it can compete with double radials, also on the longer distance. And at the end, everybody wear the hat that fits him. We wear the Buell hat, proudly. Jens | ||
| Court |
The XB frame was patented in 1986 . . . just shortly before the Yamaha. Anyone want to take a guess at where Yamaha got some of their cues? | ||
| Rocketman |
The most secretive motorcycle company known to the world patents a frame in 1986 JUST SHORTLY BEFORE THE YAMAHA? PROVE IT How did Yamaha come to influence themselves? Are you implying by the Buell design? Did Yamaha call Court (or Mr Buell) and thank you guys for being dumb enough to allow them the credit for ripping off a Buell design? Presumably a top secret design at that. So Buell got no recognition at all for the past 21 years. That is until now thanks to Court  You talk so much rubbish it's unbelievable! "The XB frame and geometry is the best solution introduced in the moto industry the last 20 years. The air-cooled engine is one of the reasons that the XB will never reach its 100% potential. " And it is the only reason the XB frame isn't the best solution introduced in the moto industry the last 20 years. Nothing much besides the old pushrod poke air cooler will fit the XB, which is precisely why no one in the industry cares about how great the XB frame might be. It's unsuitable for almost any other configuration of engine favoured particularly by the Japanese manufacturers. Magic abounds. In peoples minds that is! Rocket | ||
| Vagelis46 |
So you suggest that an engine with similar dimensions like the KTM V-2 990cc engine would not fit the XB chassis? It is much smaller and lighter than the HD engine. I could give you exact dimensions, if you liked. Or even the 800cc BMW parallel twin, would not fit the XB? You are making a big mistake ! Sometimes you give the impression that you hate everything that the XB and Buell has to offer. And I can tell you this, since I am putting 3000-5000km per month (winter&summer) on my XB12R : My XB12R is the best bike I have ever owned, despite some reliability issues. But I do not care. I have never regreted buying it, and I can not think of any other bike I would rather have than my XB12R. And yes the XB chassis is the smartest thing in the moto industry right now! I am just hoping for a lighter (mass and rotational inertia), water cooled engine, so that the impact of Buell on the moto bussines is even greater. But I hope that the XB chassis and the water cooled engine happens, before the Japs copy the idea of the XB chassis, as they have done many times in the past in many other occasions. | ||
| José_quiñones |
Blake, You keep going back to the March 2006 AHRMA Daytona results. Are you prepared to waste your time trolling the internet providing "context" whenever somebody mentions the 2006 AHRMA Daytona results? As Matt mentioned, somebody looking at those results would have no clue who did what other than where they finished. March 2007 that Guzzi did beat XBRRs at the AHRMA races. So did the NCR "New Blue" Ducati. As I posted earlier, I saw a Triumph 675 Daytona beat an XBRR in one race and a 999R beat the same bike in another race Memorial Day weekend at the CCS races in Summit Point, WV. The rider on this particular XBRR (Brian Bemisderfer) was racing on his "home" track, so he's no slouch. He got beat by a better bike/rider combination. XBRR's will win and loose races in the future, hopefully people here, Dave's website and Buell PR will mention both. Where's the Road America AMA Formula Extreme Press Release? It's not on Buell.com yet. (Message edited by josé_quiñones on June 05, 2007) | ||
| Trojan |
The XB chassis is an ingenious solution. Unfortunately it is a solution to a problem of Buell's own making, namely the heavy and tall engine. By Erik's own admission, the fuel in the frame idea came about simply because there was nowhere else to put it AND package the XB in such a small chassis. Honda/Yamaha etc would not need to use such technology because their engines are smaller, lighter and easier to package. If Honda want to move the fuel tank lower they just put it under the seat where they have loads of space (take a look at the RC212V and other MotoGP bikes). The KTM V-Twin motor weighs just over half the weight of the XB motor and is physically much smaller, even with water cooling, so they and Ducati don't need to 'think laterally' when it comes to frame design and can build a 'traditional' trellis frame that still handles just as well as the XB. I would also be interested to see how the 'stock' ZTL brake handles a motor with much more power than the current XB, because I think that the stock brake is marginal even in it's current guise. Pu tit on a bike with another 40bhp and 30mph top speed increase and it will be scary. Will the next generation of Buell road bikes persist with this idea, with 8 piston calipers and ludicrously expensive and short lived pads? | ||
| Court |
I stand corrected . . . Buell patented the frame in 1989. And let me clarify that I did not intend to say that Buell was first to the punch, just that it was a time when there was a great deal of interaction, both official and unofficial, between Buell and Yamaha. Frankly when Yamaha started showing twin spar aluminum "Delta Box" designs in 1983, I think you'd have to give the real credit to Spainard Antonio Cobas who, prior to his death in 2004, achieved legendary status for creative and innovative means of moving the science of motorcycle design forward when it found itself constrained by current technology. Buell, make no mistake, was not THE genius, he is one of a group of folks who have changed the industry. The fuell in the frame patent is noteworthy as many folks thought it was "new" in 1983 when actually fabrication methods were just evolving to the point where it was not just a great idea, but commercially producable. If followed, incidentally, by 13 years one of Erik's key patent that we don't speak about because it contained the dreaded words . . .
Patent number: 4951774 Filing date: Jan 6, 1989 Issue date: Aug 28, 1990 Abstract A combined motorcycle frame and fuel tank utilizes a pair of hollow beams to form the main chassis of the motorcycle. The hollow interior of the framework is utilized as a fuel tank for the motorcycle | ||
| Vagelis46 |
I think that the VERY heavy crank of the HD engine is not helping the ZTL brake, and it makes the OEM configuration feel weak. The brake itself with the right pads is OK for me. But I have not tried the new CBR600 and 1098 brakes to have a comparison. But these bikes do not have the flywheel effect of the XB12R. I remember that one of the first things to notice, on my first ride on my 04 XB12R, was that I was getting the feeling that the rear tire wanted to push the bike forward when braking, due to the inertia of the crank. When the engine was changed to a 07 engine, I got the feeling that the crank was lighter, and ever since I am happy with the brakes. Maybe I am used to the heavy crank effect? I think that any way we look at it, from racing and DNF of the XBRR, to street riding the XB12R, it all comes down to the HD engine limiting Buell motorcycles. | ||
| Anonymous |
The KTM V-Twin motor weighs just over half the weight of the XB motor and is physically much smaller, even with water cooling, so they and Ducati don't need to 'think laterally' when it comes to frame design and can build a 'traditional' trellis frame that still handles just as well as the XB. Trojan and Rocketman have, judging by the posts in this thread, come unhinged with Buell Derangement Syndrome, the sputteringly irrational reaction to a very small American motorcycle company. If Trojan thinks that a KTM motor weighs anywhere close to half an XB engine, particularly with essential features, such as radiator and coolant included, he's been reading too many Austrian press releases. While the XB engine could be lighter, the installed weight of the XBRR engine is roughly the same as that of the KTM. As for brakes, Jens, who is no bullsh*tter, can address the merits of the 8-piston ZTL2 caliper in high horsepower applications. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
"While the XB engine could be lighter, the installed weight of the XBRR engine is roughly the same as that of the KTM." I do not know about the XBRR, since I have never ridden or even seen one being ridden. There is no way that the XB12R engine is lighter that the KTM's. Comments like this are trying to say lies to people that appreciate Buell motorcycles, like me. My best friend owns a KTM Superduke, and I know from first hand which engine is lighter and faster. But at the same time I prefer my XB12R over the KTM, anytime, anyplace, no-matter where we ride. As far as rotational inertia, my XB12R is the only sports bike that I have seen, that is clearly squating the rear end, when the bike is on the side-stand in neutral and I rev up the engine hard. The sight is crazy and talks for the rotating inertia of the engine, and its effect. | ||
| Trojan |
If Trojan thinks that a KTM motor weighs anywhere close to half an XB engine, particularly with essential features, such as radiator and coolant included, he's been reading too many Austrian press releases. While the XB engine could be lighter, the installed weight of the XBRR engine is roughly the same as that of the KTM. As for brakes, Jens, who is no bullsh*tter, can address the merits of the 8-piston ZTL2 caliper in high horsepower applications. Nice smoke screen anony. Unfortunately you know as well as I do that the KTM engine weighs 55kg and is considerably smaller than the XB motor, particulalry in height. The radiators etc can be placed outside of the frame in any suitable position, which means that the space required within the frame of the KTM is substantially less than the XB package. As for brakes, I am not bullsh*tting you either. Having tried with the ZTL setup for over a year with limited success, changing to twin discs solved all our problems in one fell swoop, period. I am sure that given enough engineering time and brainstorming then any idea can be MADE to work, but does it work better than what is already available? There are plenty of engineering ideas that SHOULD work better than what is currently available. We all know that hub centre steering offers substantial theoretical benefits over conventional forks, but nobody has actually made it work in practice any better than a normal front end. Likewise the ZTL front end. I would like to see some back to back braking tests for the ZTL2 8 piston brake versus state of the art radial calipers as fitted to other sports bikes. Are you suggesting that the ZTL will stop faster? I think you'll find the laws of physics will suggest otherwise but I'd be happy to see the results. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
"By Erik's own admission, the fuel in the frame idea came about simply because there was nowhere else to put it AND package the XB in such a small chassis. Honda/Yamaha etc would not need to use such technology because their engines are smaller, lighter and easier to package. If Honda want to move the fuel tank lower they just put it under the seat where they have loads of space (take a look at the RC212V and other MotoGP bikes). " I do not see much available space in a CBR1000 or R1, to place the fuell under the seat, or near the seat area. What about the battery? The effect of a full fuel tank on these bikes is really noticable. On the other hand, the effect of fuel on the XB is almost none. But you said yourself, that the XB chassis is something really genious and good. "As for brakes, I am not bullsh*tting you either. Having tried with the ZTL setup for over a year with limited success, changing to twin discs solved all our problems in one fell swoop, period. " You are talking about racing application. Has anyone experimented with ZTL and carbon or carbon/ceramic disk for racing. Sometimes the benefit of one solution is seen when you try the real last combination. I am sure the ZTL is more than OK for hard sport ridding use, and it looks GREAT. I am also sure that it can be improved. | ||
| Davegess |
You think he said this... "There is no way that the XB12R engine is lighter that the KTM's. Comments like this are trying to say lies to people that appreciate Buell motorcycles, like me." BUT what was actually said was this... "the installed weight of the XBRR engine is roughly the same as that of the KTM." Not tying to yank your chain just to say that nowhere has anyone said the XB12 engine is lighter than the KTM | ||
| Blake |
JQ, I on my Buell Cyclone beat IL4 literbikes in a race. That proves a heck of a lot more than the bullshit Guzzi beat a Buell XBRR scenario. I'm sure somewhere somehow a Guzzi has also beaten the latest greatest IL4 literbike. Has a Guzzi ever won a FUSA or ASRA Thuderbike race, ever? Nope. Has a Buell XBRR competing against Ducatis and Aprilias superbikes ever won a Pro Twins race ever? Yep, four times in the last four races. That sure does cause some to choke on their anti-Buell bile. I don't get it. | ||
| Court |
Careful Blake . . . don't make me suspend your account for talking sense. You're on thin ice!  | ||
| Blake |
Sour grapes are sucky. The stock Buell ZTL brake isn't used for racing on the XBRR. Sour grapes brought up again and again, are sucky. First you say the XBRR engine is no good. Then when factual evidence is presented to refute that, you keenly sidestep to another issue. It ain't cool. Race a Buell? Get the ZTL-2 calliper with the Nissin pads which, according to Jeremy McWilliams is closer in feel and performance to MotoGP brakes than WSB brakes. Buell isn't learning from XBRR racing? A more ignorant statement I've yet to witness. Congratulations to the Buell racers who took 1st and 2nd against a field of Ducati and Aprilia superbikes in the French Pro-Twins race! | ||
| Blake |
I'm gonna suspend myself. I got stuff that needs doing! And I have a fancy new proof tested carburetor on the way from California. The Nallinized Cyclone is finally gonna be able to breath above 5,500 rpm. I'm shooting for a podium in my next race. Yeah, using the stock Cyclone brake too. Imagine that. | ||
| Davegess |
Blake, it's a Buell it can't be raced!!! What are you doing!!! | ||
| Trojan |
Sour grapes are sucky. The stock Buell ZTL brake isn't used for racing on the XBRR. Sour grapes brought up again and again, are sucky. First you say the XBRR engine is no good. Then when factual evidence is presented to refute that, you keenly sidestep to another issue. It ain't cool. Race a Buell? Get the ZTL-2 calliper with the Nissin pads which, according to Jeremy McWilliams is closer in feel and performance to MotoGP brakes than WSB brakes. No sour grapes from me Blake, just years of experience as the ONLY people willing to spend GBP40,000 of our own money and time trying to race a Buell in the UK since 2002, so believe me I have some experience thankyou. I never said XBRR the engine is no good, but it is not good enough to win in AMA FX. The records speak for themselves as far as reliability and race performance go so flaming me isn't going to improve that is it?. By the way JW was being paid by Buell at the time he made those comments about the brakes. Attend one of his track days in Spain and ask him what he thinks of the Buell now. The answer may be a little different (I won't pass on second hand comments made to someone else but they were less than complimentary about the whole Buell racing experience). I am sorely tempted to give up on this thread now, simply because it is impossible to have an open minded discussion with zealots who will only ever see the factory line and cannot see gaping holes in their arguments and disapointments in the race record of the XBRR so far. I wuld love to see it succeed but I don't think it will. I will leave you with these thoughts. If the XBRR is so good why isn't there a waiting list to buy one? Why are no more being made? Why don't Warr's race the 2 they have in the UK? So the XBRR is still in development. Do you think that Honda/Yamaha/Kawasaki etc race bike development will stand still while they wait for the XBRR to catch up? Finally, and very telling. There is not a single Buell racing in the Whole of the UK circuit racing scene in 2007, not one. That speaks volumes in itself. | ||
| Court |
OHMYGOSH . . . he's gone mad! You are going to race a Buell against zippy-doo racers? Next thing you'll know you'll be like Rico and have to stand atop that podium. Racing is about DOING, LEARNING and IMPROVING. I think Buell ended up with a steeper learning curve about the time they lost some of their resources but by gosh they designed, built and showed up with a racer and have had a couple way proud moments. Look at it this way . . . Buells doing a hell of a lot better in motorcycle racing than the New York Yankees are in baseball! Go get'em Blake! Can Dave and I have the keys while you are gone?  |
