| Author | Message | ||
     Madduck |
The French XBRR victories are exactly what Erik Buell designed his bike for. Their victories are to be celebrated. Racing is all about groups of people getting together, picking a goal, gathering resources and getting after it. Those few that succeed are to be celebrated. Winning at anything is good. Trying is also good. The choices you make and the challenges you overcome in that effort make everyone better, whether you succeed or not. Race organizations exist to have "competitive classes" to bring out both racers and fans. Relatively evenly matched bikes make for exciting racing. The orgainzers don't care what they have to do to get a competitive field. They also will not hesitate to rewrite the rulebook to reel in an obviously superior bike. Thats racing. I had a number of friends so pissed at the SCTA when they banned our record setting bikes at Bonneville. It isn't personal, we were too fast and would have set the bar so high that others would choose not to compete for those records. In 2006 there were 5 teams on the salt trying to take "our" records away. They would likely not have come out without those rule changes. Very few people waste time and money when they know they have little chance of success. The rulebooks exist to give the illusion that even dreamers can succeed. Watch any of the successful teams work the sanctioning bodies to get a competitive edge. Buells biggest problem will be to get in that part of the game, politics is the hardest part of any racing effort. Paul Team Manager Davey Camlin #27 | ||
| Tripper |
Performing a tuneup on a Saab compares with engineering a motor vehicle from scratch? wow. | ||
| Jimidan |
One person's troll is another person's freedom fighter. This thread would have been dead long ago if Rocket and Trojan were not in it. To the rest of you guys, they had you at attaboy. Rocket, do you ever think about where you are when you write this stuff? It is like some white boy going into Harlem and screaming the N-word at the top of his lungs out in front of the Apollo. Do you ever get the feeling that dissent is not a very popular position to take with some of the folks on this forum? Rocket, what places are you predicting for the Buell XBRR's finishing at the AMA FX race this weekend at Road America. | ||
| Jimidan |
Madduck sez: The French XBRR victories are exactly what Erik Buell designed his bike for. Do you really believe that? Didn't you read anything in the press prior to the release of these bikes for the Daytona 200 two years ago? I really doubt that Erik Buell would agree with that statement either. The XBRR was specifically designed to meet the race class specs for AMA FX racing. The fact that it can also meet other organization's class specs is obviously a bonus, but it was designed to play in the FX class. Am I glad that it meets other class specs? You bet. But it is kinda funny how some folks are revisionist when it comes to our beloved Buells. It is also not so funny how quickly some folks resort to name calling and personal attacks for those who are outside of the choir. Surely we can communicate on a higher plane than that...} | ||
| Jimidan |
Trojan Man sez: It appears to me that Buell is at an important crossroads in it's history, and one that will decide the future of the company. Does it remain a niche producer of 'eccentric' machines that will hover on the edges of the main stream for the foreseeable future, or do they grasp the bull by the horns and build a sports bike to go head on against the best that the world has to offer, which will also entail proving the bike on track against the current 'pick of the crop'. I am betting that we will have the answer to part of that question this year...it's shitte or get of the pot time. jimi} | ||
| Steve_mackay |
Jimidan, the initial target was set on FX, yes. But it was also meant for privateer racing in many classes as well. Supertwins being one 'of em. And, IIRC, McWilliams and Bilansky did quite well at it's debut in Daytona against the Ducs. I'm heading out to Road America in about 8 hours. I'll make sure and fill my 1 gig card  Danny is still about 10 seconds a lap behind the leader in qualifying. But he did have some clutch/primary troubles. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
'Like many folks who are ignorant of what sophisticated high-technology truly entails, you seem to equate high tech with mere complexity (water cooling for example). You have it backwards, dead wrong.' Water cooling in no mere complexity. Since the fan on the Air cooled HD engine on my XB12r, is blowing hot air on the rear shock, it is 'fried' and is not performing at its best. Also with water cooling the hole where the fan is placed would not be there, giving more freedom to the designers for a better solution regarding stiffness and fuel capacity. I think water cooling is a necessity, if we want to see the 100% potential of the XB frame. The XB frame and geometry is the best solution introduced in the moto industry the last 20 years. The air-cooled engine is one of the reasons that the XB will never reach its 100% potential. At the same time I really like the performance and character and feel of the HD engine. But I think that Buell should also give the option of a water cooled engine. So everybody will be happy, the sportriders and the HD fans. Is this too much to ask? | ||
| Rocketman |
Tripper, it seems since you made your allegiance with the crowd that left BadWeB , you've jumped on many an opportunity to try insult me. I know the shit you've been fed about me by these same people, so trust me when I say this. I know you've lost face around here with those that know a lot more than you do about some of those you've jumped into bed with. My numbers on that card. Have the guts to use it, or shut the f*ck up. As for your question, you obviously haven't seen the latest Rocket machine! Do you ever get the feeling that dissent is not a very popular position to take with some of the folks on this forum? Who said it's dissent? I see criticism as a good form of education. If we all just sit here and go, "Hey Erik, the XBRR did great in France last weekend. Cool race bike you got there", wouldn't that make us sheep just following along everything Buell does? The truth is, Buell personnel are all to often using XBRR victories or finishes above a few not so highly race speced Ducati's as some form of justification for the XBRR race program. As I remember it, Buell launched the XBRR with lots of fanfare and what turned out to be hogwash about how great a racer it would be. Buells back pedaling since, and claims of 'they didn't actually say that' have split Buell fans into two packs. Those that no matter what, see the XBRR program as a great success and proof of much greater things to come. The others see the XBRR as a folly. Worse still. They have recognised this Buell characteristic as similar to the way Buell manufacture and sell their street bikes. That isn't a good thing when other marques are building and racing street bikes and racing bikes that are (arguably for Blake's sake) better value for money in every aspect. There are many that want, and dare I say expect, from Buell. Put it another way. If you make a hit album and your adoring fans buy it in the millions, they expect you to make more music they like. The day you don't is the day people stop buying your music. Motorcycles are no different. Those that made Buell successful as a manufacturer today, expect they'll be rewarded for their brand choice, and what becomes brand loyalty because they 'buy' into the ethos of the company, by being rewarded with a great new model or a race victory of world, or at least national standing. Buell owe big time. They've garnered our support with promises a plenty, and in many years they still haven't delivered as good as the opposition. Cries of, '"back in 1996 I was laughed out of......." just don't cut it today. Time has moved on. Buell don't build motorcycles under such hardships as they use to. Or so we are lead to believe. We are told they have a state of the art assembly plant. We are told they scour the world for the best manufacturing. We are told they have the best (better than anyone else) reliability per unit count. They have a team of assembled cream of the crop folks in racing in their employ, and they're not laying them off. Such suggests Buell are no more disadvantage than any other manufacturer. In fact such claims would have anyone believe Buell have a distinct advantage. Given Buells parent company, does the parent company not have faith in its ownership of Buell products when they surely must know of these amazing capabilities Buell posses. Surely the parent company must see what KTM can do with what they have, so why is there a stumbling block at HD and Buell? It makes not a jot of sense to me unless the intention is nothing more than to make profit at as little cost as possible. If that's the case Buell should quit the big talk and retreat to selling quirky American bikes to quirky Americans, just like HD do. There are no excuses. The XBRR has not lived up to expectations all but in the hands of a few privateers. Buell could have done so much more for their fans, and themselves. Rocket (Message edited by rocketman on June 02, 2007) | ||
| M1combat |
You might try a book by milliken and milliken Sean. | ||
| Elvis |
Rocket, what places are you predicting for the Buell XBRR's finishing at the AMA FX race this weekend at Road America. }I'll bet they finsh ahead of the Triumphs and BMWs.  My prediction: Dan Bilansky - 19, Walt 26, but I'll be rooting for them to do better than that. 4:45 WI time (I think that's 5:45 eastern time for anyoneone who wants to watch the results live \newurl ){http://206.168.146.115/rr/AMAflashresults.html,htt p://206.168.146.115/rr/AMAflashresults.html} | ||
| Rocketman |
Rocket, what places are you predicting for the Buell XBRR's finishing at the AMA FX race this weekend at Road America. Sorry. I missed that earlier. Who am I to say. I don't follow the series. One thing's certain. They won't be in the top ten, more's the pity. Rocket | ||
| Steve_mackay |
If the rain keeps up, I think Danny has a *BETTER* chance of making it in the top 10. | ||
| Steve_mackay |
I'll bet they finsh ahead of the Triumphs and BMWs I'll also bet they finish ahead of the Ducatis | ||
| Rocketman |
You might try a book by milliken and milliken Sean. Yes indeed. I don't have that copy. Feel free to send me one! Here are some good reference titles I do posses:- Fundamentals of Motor Vehicle Technology (V. A. W. Hillier and Pittuck) Race and Rally Car Source Book: The Guide to Building or Modifying a Competition Car (Allan Staniforth) Automotive Handbook (Bosch GmbH) Bosch Fuel Injection and Engine Management (Bosch - Charles O. Probst) Rocket Engines (S.L. Bragg) V-Twin Tuner's Handbooks (Denish) Tuning for Speed (Phil E. Irving) Harley-Davidson Sportster Performance Handbook (Buzz Buzzelli) Tuning Four Cylinder Fords (Paul Davies) Two-Stroke Motorcycles and Autocycles (The Staff Of The Motorcycle - Iliffe & Sons)  And many many more. I have loads more tech stuff at the workshop! Feel free to contribute! Rocket | ||
| Jimidan |
I'll bet they finsh ahead of the Triumphs and BMWs I'll also bet they finish ahead of the Ducatis NFW, little Johnny, but I like the way ye' are thinkin'!  } | ||
| Blake |
"Those that no matter what, see the XBRR program as a great success" I don't know anyone who sees the XBRR program as "a great success" in terms of racing results. Not sure how you get that idea. It's tough to imagine a worse start to a national racing debut than what the XBRR suffered at Daytona. But if you are expecting folks to abandon their enthusiasm and act like some fair weather fans, you have miscalculated. We are here and fans of Buell racing no matter what. We are not fair weather fans, we are Bad Weather Bikers, bitch.  Nice card and nice disarming humor re the children. It shows your true personality. A good thing. | ||
| Jscott |
Buells finish 39th and 40th, out of a field of 41. | ||
| Court |
One of the great successes of the XBRR effort, to date, has been that it has flushed out and revealed the "can do" from the corporate saboteurs. Funny how some folks give up so easily. I'm not a huge race fan in comparison to some here but even I saw the "glass half full" elements of the Daytona effort. The finish is but one component, albeit in racing perhaps the most measurable and important. The XBRR proved however there were more things done right than wrong. In addition, it generated tremendous excitement showing the potential for future Buell forays into racing. Pretty cool stuff to me. | ||
| Elvis |
Anyone who thinks that you can win by just jumping in and winning without any time or efort has likely never won anything (just ask Harley how that worked with the VR1000). Does Buell know more or less about racing at this point in time than they did a year and a half ago? I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) this was Walt Sipp's second AMA race and Dan Bilansky's first. Would Walt be racing in the AMA if not for the XBRR? I don't think so (but he has an account on here, so he can speak for himself if he would like). Here is a partial list of bikes that did less than Buells two DNF's this weekend in the AMA: Aprilia Benelli Bimota BMW Confederate Fischer Harley Davidson Hyosung KTM Motoczysz Moto Guzzi Norton MZ Roehr Royal Enfield Triumph Victory Polaris MV Augusta is one of only three non-Japanese brands (along with Ducati and Buell)who had the audacity to race against the Japanese Goliaths this weekend, and MV Augusta suffered one DNF and an 11th place finish in the first Superbike race yesterday. Is it time for MV Augusta to just give up? They clearly aren't "competive", so why are they even out there? If anyone wants Buell to ever be competitive in racing (and there are people out there who clearly don't want that to ever happen) the XBRR is a first step (and the French results - the whole point of this thread - are helping to illustrate that this first step is more than just a flacid effort). The only way the XBRR could be a failure is if they quit now. Court doesn't think they will. I have no idea what their future plans are, but I hope they include more racing and a new engine, and if that's the case then what they learned from the XBRR will be invalueable. Did anyone ever wonder if one value of the XBRR is that it may have helped Buell convince Harley that they can't do it without a new engine? While I'm not nearly as bold as Court, I will predict that Buell will have more podiums in more classes in 2007 than 2006 (and, while I don't have the numbers, I strongly suspect they had more in 2006 than 2005, more in 2005 than 2004, more in 2004 than 2003 . . .) How many other manufacturers can point to that sort of progress over the past 5 years? (Message edited by elvis on June 03, 2007) | ||
| M2nc |
I have to agree. Macadam is in it for the championship. They started last year and they are at every event, improving the team and the bike. For an FX team to be successful they have to be that dedicated. Another side note, the factory Honda, Suzuki and Kawazaki teams are running 2 seconds faster than the rest of the field. The two 749R Ducatis of Boulder Colorado were two seconds slower per lap and finished in the top six positions. That is about where the Buells would have been if the gremlins would not have attacked. The 10th position was four seconds per lap and 20th position was eight seconds per lap slower than the top four. Sounds like a boring race to me. | ||
| Blake |
"Buells finish 39th and 40th, out of a field of 41." Wrong. The Buells did not finish the race. The correct description would be that the Buells placed 39th and 40th, out of a field of 41. Which still sucks. | ||
| Court |
And my view is that Buells were there racing. To succeed. . . . you must first participate. | ||
| Trojan |
One of the great successes of the XBRR effort, to date, has been that it has flushed out and revealed the "can do" from the corporate saboteurs. Funny how some folks give up so easily. I'm not a huge race fan in comparison to some here but even I saw the "glass half full" elements of the Daytona effort. The finish is but one component, albeit in racing perhaps the most measurable and important. The XBRR proved however there were more things done right than wrong. In addition, it generated tremendous excitement showing the potential for future Buell forays into racing. Pretty cool stuff to me I don't know what measure you use to judge success, but I don't think objectivity is one of them I'm afraid. Maybe you are too close to Buell to be able to judge the success or otherwise of the XBRR in an unbiased manner? On what basis has the bike been a success? Results? No Reliability? No As a positive advert for the company? Definitely not! Buell had pretty much carte blanche on the rules front to build a race bike form the ground up in order to race against 600 Sports bikes with limited modifications. Did it outpeform them in any area? Braking? Handling? Power? Unfortunately not. Even as a Buell fan I cannot see how it can be judged a success, and Buells 'non involvement' with the project after just one season suggests to me that they feel likewise despite the bluster and hype. Elvis, as for your list of bikes that did less than Buell, maybe you should do some homework on them first. For instance.... Aprilia ...Proven GP Winners and will be in WSB again next year. World Supermoto champions 2006, World 250GP champions 2006. Benelli ... A rich history of racing and will be racing at world level next year. ALso have a 450 dirt bike range ready to go. Bimota...Not officially racing, but won the Italian Supertwins series in 2006 nonetheless (using an air cooled 100DS derived motor). BMW ...Won their class at Le MAns 24hour race 2006 at their first attempt with a brand new bike. Won at MotoST Daytona 2006. Confederate,Harley Davidson,Hyosung,Victory Polaris, MZ, ... Don't race so no comparison can even be inferred. Fischer ...Who? KTM ...125 & 250 GP winners, Built a MotoGP bike, Paris Dakar winners every year, WSB/BSB next year with the RC8 1200cc. Too many Enduro and off road titles to even try to name. Motoczysz ...A standing joke that has still not produced a single race ready bike yet, despite the yearly hype at Laguna. Roehr..See above. Moto Guzzi..Won at Daytona 2005/2006 with the MGS01 (beating a number of Buells along the way if I remember correctly). Norton...no longer exist and have not raced since the 1990's. Royal Enfield ..Are you joking? Triumph ..Won the TT with the Daytona and are winning races every weekend with the 675. The MV that is running in AMA Superbike is a shadow of the bike that will run in WSB, simply because the AMA rules are different. How many other manufacturers can point to that sort of progress over the past 5 years? KTM, Aprilia, Triumph, BMW, Ducati..shall I go on? Just what progress have Buell made in the last 5 years that we can shout about? Maybe I'm missing something here, and I really do want to have something to cheer about, but the XB motor hasn't changed at all since 2003 and the addition of some new plastics every year isn't progress, just marketing. | ||
| Elvis |
Matt, Maybe my point wasn't clear. Some have proposed, that the only purpose of the XBRR was to race in the AMA (I don't agree, but I was addressing that point). The point is there are Buells racing in the AMA that wouldn't be there if not for the XBRR, and, as I said, none of those other brands were racing in the AMA - for whatever reasons. Buell is at least making a stand as one of only three non-Japanese bikes to take a stab at the AMA (I wasn't commenting on their histories, everyone knows their histories - though to my knowledge, the new Norton effort hasn't gone belly up yet as you imply). So Buell is at least trying to do something. I'd rather see them trying and failing than not trying at all. As a company that may have aspirations to become a force in racing, Buell is better off having the XBRR than not. Would you disagree with that simple statement? Every DNF they experience teaches them something. Buell is NOT Ducati. Not even close. But the XBRR takes them one tiny baby step closer. As a racer, would you actually propose that they would be better off not having the XBRR as opposed to having it and suffering sometimes embarrassing results? And can you really say that KTM, Aprilia, Triumph, BMW and Ducati have increased their number of podiums every year for the past 5 years? I would be very surprised if that is true. I think that, if Buell invested 4 or 5 million dollars, they could hire good riders and a good crew and make the XBRR a competitive bike. Some people would like to see that, but I think that would be a foolish waste of money. Personally, I would rather see them progress as they are. Build a solid foundation in club racing and help any of those club racers take the next step into the AMA if possible and invest that 4 or 5 million in a new engine that can be competitive long-term rather than using that money to win now and prop up the air cooled engines. I think the problem with the XBRR is not that they aren't putting enough into it this year, but rather that they put too much into it last year. The XBRR is a valueable learning tool for Buell if kept in perspective, and despite some of the excitable posts on these boards, I'm not sure if Buell ever intended it to be much more than that. | ||
| Trojan |
As a racer, would you actually propose that they would be better off not having the XBRR as opposed to having it and suffering sometimes embarrassing results? As a racer I would rather see more buells out there. As a Buell enthusiast and customer I would rather that they stayed out of racing until they had a competitive bike, but that is never really an option. I do think that Buell were incredibly niaive when they launched the XBRR amongst the hype and fanfare, and I would bet that if they could retract some of the hype then they would do so in a flash. Right now I think they should lay the XBRR to rest and concentrate on the next project. I just wish that they had the guts to admit that it didn't achieve what they wanted for it. | ||
| Court |
Elvis: You have it nailed. The XBRR has done and is doing some very valuable things for Buell. Court | ||
| Trojan |
despite some of the excitable posts on these boards, I'm not sure if Buell ever intended it to be much more than that. Unfortunately it wasn't just on this board that the exciteable posts were made, but on the Buell.com web site and in statements made by Buell to the world's media prior to Daytona last year. If the XBRR had just made a low profile entrance & exit then all of the fuss and disapointment would probably have been avoided. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
"Personally, I would rather see them progress as they are. Build a solid foundation in club racing and help any of those club racers take the next step into the AMA if possible and invest that 4 or 5 million in a new engine that can be competitive long-term rather than using that money to win now and prop up the air cooled engines. " 100% agree. I just hope that precious time is not wasted. The limitations of the air-cooled engine is obvious even on our street focused XB12R. So trying to use and be competitive with an air-cooled engine into the high levels of racing is with no future. And a waste of money. | ||
| M1combat |
Ummm.... You can get a race reliable 140HP out of a 1350 XB engine. The rules say that you can use 1350cc. That's reasonably competitive as far as I know. What were the top speeds between McWilliams and Duhamel/Zempke in the '06 D200? I was standing there.... The RR was hauling ass. It was NOT being a rolling chicane on the back stretch. I watched every lap it ran and it was NOT losing distance around the bank. It wasn't needing HP and it wasn't the engine that killed it. Trojan.... The RR is a "competitive" bike. Put it against the rest of the privateers and it does reasonably well WRT lap times. It's really a shame that they can't keep the REST of the bike together reliably. It seems Macadam have it figured out though. Maybe Buell ought to give them a call and learn what they have about reliability and pass that on to the US teams. WRT hype and speculation... What do you expect a manufacturer to do? Unveil a race bike and say "We don't think it has a chance, but here it is." You know that's not the way to do it and to be honest... If there was enough money behind a full on privateer effort it would do well against the privateers. | ||
| Blake |
I don't get it. No matter what, it seems that some folks prefer to focus only upon grinding Buell's nose into their XBRR racing setbacks. That is just pure miserableness in my view. Even when a Buell or Buells do well in racing, some folks only exploit it as yet another opportunity to wage their campaign of negative commentary against Buell racing. I expect that when Buell is further along and competing on the upper levels of national and world motorcycle racing and achieving success, that some of the people here will still be compelled to gripe and belittle Buell racing successes. Buell was excited to be back racing at the Daytona 200? Shame on them? WTF? In their first try, a true scramble to even make the event, they fell short. This year an XBRR under the adept piloting of Mr. Walt Sipp and with great support from the Bison racing team finished the race and was running lap times at the end that would have put him up with the top six finishers, this after being crashed out by the only other Buell racer on the track and then re-entering the race in a less than 100% fit condition. Pretty darn heroic stuff if you ask me. Matt, A moto Guzzi beat XBRRs at Daytona? Right, when through thoughtful sportsmanship the Buell XBRR racers who were only using the event for testing pulled over and graciously allowed the entire field to pass. At that point, the XBRR had nothing to prove as it, piloted by Rico Penzkofer, had already beaten a Ducati 999R ridden by an ex-WSB racer in a hard fought head to head battle. Please note that none of the Ducatis or Aprilias in the last four French Pro-Twins races, all of which Buell racers have won, extended any such favors to their Buell riding competition. Before his machine suffered breakdown, McWilliams had run well into the top 10, as high as sixth if I recall. At the Road America ASRA/CCS endurance race, the XBRRs bested an entire field of water-cooled IL4 machines including literbikes. What is the difference? Why then cannot Buell racers do as well in AMA Formula Xtreme? Of course the level of racing is higher; the racers of higher calibre; the teams better funded, better prepared. Racer, machine, team, funding... all are major factors contributing to the likelyhood of success of any professional racing efffort. But there is one other HUGE difference of which I think a lot of folks are ignorant. ... Do you imagine Dunlop provides the same level of tire support to the CCS/ASRA racers competing against Buell racers as they do the factory and satellite teams racing in AMA FX? The difference in tire performance is a MAJOR factor in track performance. How many AMA professional road races have Dunlop tires not won in the last ten years? |
