| Author | Message | ||
     Danair |
Had VR fail and installed a new one. Along with replacing everything except left hand guard, I have like many chased an electron jumping the stop somewhere....to no avail. Every sensor, ecm, etc. Run good for 30 min and go "finally"......you know the rest. Engine temp sensor was last. Made a special socket and all just to find that I could spin it out by the wire!!!!. it was in 1 thread? And of course, the celebratory " Finally"....you know the rest. Finally got megalog and using a lot. Everything appears normal to me except the voltage trace. It is a constant high freq pointed sawtooth between 12.7 and 15.1 The upper number has been steadily rising. Megalogged my perfect running Uly and as I think it should be the voltage is constantly being "clipped" at the upper and lower range. And much less of a range than the monster. Also the weird bikes voltage graph really goes bat shit when the O2 sensor warms up and starts working. The voltage graph shows it almost looking the O2 sensor in freq and even amplitude, and I mean instantly!!! Besides my regulator/stator (which is next) suspicions, how can an O2 sensor running on less that 1 volt and thru the ecm have such a wild effect on battery voltage. Waiting for my megalog reg key so I can post pics of graph. | ||
| Uly_man |
"It is a constant high freq pointed sawtooth between 12.7 and 15.1". That is not right and it should be holding between 14 and 15 volts. "how can an O2 sensor running on less that 1 volt and thru the ecm have such a wild effect on battery voltage". The O2 sensor voltage has nothing to do with the battery or bike charge voltage. "The voltage graph shows it almost looking the O2 sensor in freq and even amplitude, and I mean instantly!!!" The O2 volts (0 to 1) will change fast as that is what it should do. What is the problem with the bike? (Message edited by uly_man on August 04, 2013) | ||
| Danair |
The usual intermittent run like crap ill it wants. Totally aware of o2 functions and all that. Uploaded pics, should be up shortly. I have the luxury of owning an identical bike that runs perfectly (since new), so I have a good reference. I run them side by side and log at the same time. The "good bike" has never missed a beat. and between 70/90 mph, you'd think there was an electric motor down there. You never know what you'll get with the "bad bike". One header glowing, or won't idle, or vibrates like hell.every time you turn the key its a crap shoot. Then it will run almost as good as the other bike. I can tell as soon as it starts what kind of mood she's in. The list of tests, and new parts, is extensive. Changing stator now. It tests good by the manual, but its the only thing electric I haven't replaced except my power utility. | ||
| Danair |
2nd try  | ||
| Danair |
2nd try  | ||
| Uly_man |
I hate to say it but you have either a Earth problem or a broken wire some place. I know well enough this "how she feels" stuff and it is a timing issue caused by either of those. The charging/stator thing has nothing to do with how the bike runs unless the volts drop below 11.1 volts which is the limit for the ECM to work right. What year bike is it? | ||
| Danair |
06. I'm sure knew the good bike is the top one. Changing stator and then log. Will post it. | ||
| Uly_man |
Is the MAT on this graph the IAT IE The inlet air temp sensor? | ||
| Danair |
yes. The top snapshot is the good bike. The bottom is the devil. | ||
| Uly_man |
I would, if you think it is the stator, unplug the VR, charge the battery, unplug the head lamp and do a logged run. This will prove the stator function and could save a lot of time and money. From what I have found with these bikes a intermittent "work one time and not others" is a cable and/or plug problem. Maybe a TPS. | ||
| Danair |
Every sensor replaced! New plugs, wires, EBR race ecm, injectors, kitchen sink. All grounds cleaned, tightened and ohm'd out. Ignition switch, handle bar switches, sub harness connectors checked. Relays replaced, bas disabled. Done logs at midnight and high noon. That snapshot wasn't an identical time and temp as the good one but I have one and will post. Crank and don't touch the bikes for 5 minutes. Ride same route doing best to ride same style. Idle 2 minutes, check ecmspy, and shut down. As the bike warms up the voltage is the spiked waveform that rises in voltage and amplitude exactly when the O2 sensor leaves its .5 volts and starts modulating. Fan (new) audibly changes speed when running, then steady when I shut the bike off. Same results when its cool enough that the fan doesn't even turn on or hot enough its running while driving. Haven't blown any bulbs but the max voltage steadily on the rise. Replaced vr when old one (23k miles) clearly failed, confirmed by swapping from other bike. It came with 77 connector replacement. Didn't have megalogger then. If anything is consistent, it would be time....about 45 minutes. If its sweet, it will stay so till some random run cycle,could be an hour or a week. Gonna try to find a breakout box or make one. Seems its a straight pass through device but its too bulky to take riding. Thinking of just paralleling in a connector so I can test on the fly. Too bad there's no feedback loop. Pulse width and such only show what the ecm is commanding, not what's happening. | ||
| Argentcorvid |
I'm with Uly_man, you still need to check your wires. like, in the middle of the individual wires in the harness. something is crushed or otherwise making intermittent contact. | ||
| Uly_man |
I can not make much sense out of the, good bike, first log. In the second, bad bike, log the idle speed says it is about 670 rpm at the start. It needs to be about 900 plus before the charger will come in which it looks like it does later on in the log. The volts change between 14 and 15.2 volts and is right as is the variation. It is only a problem if it stays above 15.1 volts all the time. The O2 sensor should and does come in at about 100c, which it looks like it does, so that is about right. And it will keep changing about due to conditions. The engine temp (CLT) looks about right if it is in C. The AFV looks about right and anything between 80 and 110 is fine. The IAT (inlet air temp), or MAT if that is its name, says a max of 50. If that is in F it must have been a VERY cold (10F) day. If it was in C it is faulty. The inlet air temp should be only read a few degrees above the outside air temp. Maybe 2 or 3 plus in C. Did you fit a NEW IAT or the one from the good bike as that has the same numbers. They can go bad and mine did. | ||
| Danair |
The top one is at idle, hence the flat waveform. Its fields are the same as bottom one which was being driven. Just happened to be the only 2 I had on the comp I posted from. But the flatness of the voltage trace (top trace, top graph in both snapshots) doesn't vary on good bike. A nice low delta, 13.5/14.6 The 670 rpm was the min for that entire run, which is not shown, since its a screen capture point. Thats where it is at cold start, coming up to the 950/1050 range when warm. I typo'd a 2 minute warm up in one of these posts, should have been 5. Yes, new iat, all sensors replaced. That reading also a max from that run, same as the min on the other one. Yes, it is in C. That's from quickly yanking the the upper and lower airbox to do a wire jiggle test at end of ride to see if megalog would capture a blip. Iat was still connected but removed from airbox and was seeing the hot air coming off the running engine. I put it in the throat of the intake later so it would see actual air temp as it entered the tb. Also swapped batteries between bikes. Same deal. Now 15.3 I will re-do snapshots eliminating some and getting same zoom | ||
| Danair |
It could also be possible I got a bad vr out of the box as I found yesterday that I got one of those bad stators, where it hits the rotor bolts. Sheesh!! Extremely fine catch on that one from Al L. | ||
| Uly_man |
It should idle at 1050 rpm cold engine and that is the book set up. If you try to run it much less then you will have problems. The TPS position is not only for idle but tells the ECM the exact position of the butterfly. It is critical to get it right on a 06 bike and may need a few tries to get it right. It did with my 06 bike. I think that you may have more than one problem with the bike. Good luck. | ||
| Danair |
OK, here's the screen cap showing the basis of my question. 1st start of the day. 1050 RPM. Voltage (top trace, 1st graph) rock solid at 14.3 You can see the voltage start swinging between 13.6/14.9 as soon as the O2 sensor voltage (top trace, 3rd graph) goes from its at rest .5 volts to modulating between .35/.66 volts ie doing its job. Hence the original question....how can .35 volts variation at the O2 cause a running systems voltage to constantly swing 1.3 volts? Don't even see that with the much more substantial load of turning lights on and off.  | ||
| Uly_man |
"Hence the original question....how can .35 volts variation at the O2 cause a running systems voltage to constantly swing 1.3 volts?" Ah I see what you are trying to say now. The answer is that it does not have any effect as such. The battery charge is controlled via the VR. A swing of 1.5 ish volts is normal and depends on the state of the battery charge level in the first place. One has nothing to do with the other. "The usual intermittent run like crap ill it wants." Trust me Guy if this is the issue you are still trying to fix it is a damaged wire/plug/mechanical "break" in the control system. The electronics of this bike like a bad IAT or ground problem do not do this and just cause bad timing/fuel issues because the ECM is getting bad IE Wrong numbers. | ||
| Danair |
I hear ya. Not really trying to connect the voltage with running issues, and fully understand charging systems but as you can see the charging system is working perfectly holding the voltage within .3 volts because the battery is good, fully charged and under very little load. Maybe its pure coincidence that it starts swinging exactly when the sensor starts. Other two Uly's don't do that but they all have "personalities" I have found a couple of problems, latest is #1 coil *primary* wire sawed in two, through harness by either the throttle cable or idle speed adjuster. Wait till you hear my fix...... (Message edited by danair on August 16, 2013) | ||
| Reepicheep |
Put a real meter on the actual bike (instead of logging the ECM value for system voltage) and see if those voltage swings are "real" or not. If the ECM is cracked, or a sensor is fried and shorting, that could explain why the ECM starts making many mistakes at once. | ||
| Uly_man |
If you have ANY WIRE AT ALL, that is part of the ECM control system, that is not perfect or with a bad resistance it will screw up the engine running right. "I have found a couple of problems, latest is #1 coil *primary* wire sawed in two, through harness by either the throttle cable or idle speed adjuster". That is a common problem and one people should to on a bike "check over". | ||
| Danair |
"That is a common problem". I think the plug wire wearing thru is common, this was in the coil sub harness, which I found snaking a bore scope where you can't normally see | ||
| Danair |
Sub-harness that contains tps, coil, injectors, iat, etc. right where it joins the main harness.  | ||
| Argentcorvid |
Told ya so. | ||
| Danair |
Repaired and still not right, though. That just solved the dead miss that developed while doing all this other stuff. New harness should arrive next week. Gotta figure every wire could be suspect as they all have same age and stresses. Don't care to ride and wonder when the next gremlin will surface. Will carefully unwrap old one if anyone wants to know how what gets to where deep inside the bundles. | ||
| Uly_man |
It is an unfortunate fact that some parts of the bike can "rub together" and cause problems. This is why it is such a good idea to check the bike over once in a while to head off problems. I have just found the clutch cable sawing a hole in rubber section of my lower oil cooler pipe. I also had the chin fairing top bolt, as it was over long, damage the oil return pipe and caused it to leak oil all over the can. And I have no idea how one of the wires to the black ECM plug was almost totally cut in two. |
