| Author | Message | ||
     Ircsmith |
I know this has been gone over numerous times but I still have an issue. I have ruled out crank problem. the bike sounds great when cold. I can open the throttle very quickly when cold and nothing. let the bike get warm-hot and if I try to quickly go from 1/4 throttle to more than 1/2 it sounds like a Ducati with the clutch pulled in! I have tried changing the timing with ECM spy. right now its 4 degrees retarded from stock stetting. not real excited to go more but it did seam to help. how far can I go? if I put in 98 oct fuel it sounds great. again leading to timing. anybody else fight this? | ||
| Tootal |
Yep, even on a cool day. I had to back off my timing at the sensor by the cams. The nose cone. I think I went 1 1/2 lines. It still occasionally pings still so not the best answer. If I can get real gas at 93 octane it runs like a dream and gets 50 mpg! Put in government subsidized crap gas, even at 93 octane it starts pinging under acceleration. The weird part is that it doesn't do it all the time, even at the same temperatures. I don't get it. Maybe I'll go in and play with ecmspy and take out some more timing in certain places and see what happens. | ||
| Uly_man |
The HD/Buell book stated rating is 91 octane. We in the UK get 94 or 98. I have had no problems with 94 and 98 works better on the 06 bike in at any temp. I had, but its hard to notice, timing issues on my 06 bike due to Earth problems on the rear subframe battery/ECM mount point. Its paint on the face that needs to be filed off and a very well know issue. Its an easy check/test to do. (Message edited by Uly_man on April 25, 2013) | ||
| Wesman |
This fix worked for me (but you can't do it on an 08 or newer...I see you have an 07) .... see this link .... http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/142 838/315389.html (Message edited by wesman on April 27, 2013) | ||
| Conchop |
Uly man - you raise AN INTERESTING point about the pump piss we are stuck with in the USA. We use to have the best but seems in the past 30 plus years, there's been a reduction in standards and quality of anything in the marketplace - except for cars and bikes. I envy the quality of your fuels but I reckon you pay for what you get. | ||
| Argentcorvid |
The octane numbers in the US/Canada are completely different than the numbers in the rest of the world. | ||
| Uly_man |
Yes they are. We call this "pinking" and is normally caused by bad timing. You can change the timing for bad fuel if you need to but it is better to use good fuel. | ||
| Ratman |
Locally I find Shell to be the worst of all. regardless of bike or vehicle,it pings.Here In Kalifornication we get piss for fuel certain parts of the year with differing blends. Somebody posted 98 octane, I wish. Id check the static timing as my 06'es was way off and try different fuels. | ||
| Uly_man |
If you do not get the same grade fuel from "pump to pump or maker to maker" I can not see how you could ever fix the issue. Sounds like a right pain in the ass. | ||
| Ratman |
Unfortunately some of us havent the luxury of multiple gas stations close and buying crappy fuel is a matter of not pushing a car or bike home. For me that means that setting up for crappy fuel as a base line is necessary cause it can only get better. The closest fuel was 35 miles away once, now its Shell around the corner or a fast fading brand X. Other than that's its still another 15 miles away. | ||
| Tempest766 |
My own humble opinion is that the Thunderstorm engine used in the Ulys was a less than ideal powerplant choice for the vehicle (Eric Buell even alluded to this in interviews). My experience has been that it simply CANNOT run cool enough, for long enough, to avoid pinging on a hot summer day (regardless of what brand high-octane fuel I use). I ride more than 45 minutes at 70mph on the interstate and the engine heats up to the point where pinging is common, and once the engine is HOT, its performance goes in the crapper: all the extra throttle in the world won't make it go any faster...just more pinging. | ||
| Argentcorvid |
Man, all the complaints about pinging makes me wonder if it's happening on my bike and I just am missing it. I have pretty good hearing an have never noticed anything I'd call pinging in my bike even on a hot (90°F+) day. I guess the timing could have been messed with before I bought the bike, but I don't think it has. | ||
| Tootal |
In order to make a large V-twin have low end torque and high end ZOOM you have to use a radical cam with enough compression ratio to give you back some torque. The later the intake valve closes the higher rpm you start making power. High compression helps this out. HOWEVER, the same high compression on an air cooled engine will cause detonation or pinging. (pinking) If you were to put a thicker head gasket in and bring the compression down a bit it would really help out. These bikes were engineered in Wisconsin, a northern state that has good, non ethanol, fuel around. When I ride up there the bike runs perfect! Most everywhere else it pings. Retarding the timing will help but the reason you must retard it is because of the compression. Now that I'm thinking about this I should go check my cold cranking pressures and see what the Uly is. Anybody done a compression test on their bikes? A rule of thumb is if it's over 175 psi CCP it's too high for ethanol fuel. | ||
| Sagehawk |
Got a 96 flhr that at 47000 , I redid upper end , set deck height at .038 , milled heads .040, kept Andrews ev13 cam in it . Wasn't thinking obviously as original cam cranking pressure was 150, andrews was 175 and the pinging was on. Fought that for a while and then understood earlyclosing intake valves and what they do . Got a s&s 502 with later closing intake valve and lowered crankng pressure front to 165 and rear to 170 . Backed timing off some and rejetted mikuni so been livable last few years. Long story but getting 12x fired up again and with broken plug wire not in rush to throw it together yet. I think I'll get a baseline on cranking pressure on it now before summer .I've wondered what would run like taking some compression out as harris and brazoria county gas totally sucks. | ||
| Tootal |
My old FLHS had 10:1 heads but they were really 9.8:1. I used both an EV13 and EV27 cam in that engine. My cranking pressure was 170 and I had no problems with pinging. That 170 number is real good for an EVO engine. The twin cam would do 180 with it's better head design. | ||
| Hdxbones |
I ran SE 255 cams in a 10:1 compression 103" (1690cc)RoadGlide for several years. CCP was about 200. Took a little while to get it dialed in, but when fuel delivery was correct, timing was set for max power, minus a degree or two. It was dyno tuned for 91 octane. Never had to readjust it for the next 30,000 miles that I had it. Rode it from temps in the teens to well over 100, from sea level to 6000 ft. Higher compression doesn't nescesarily create unmanageable heat if it's fueled correctly. I think a lot of people frequently chase timing to cure a ping, when it may be a lean detonation that's causing it. A little time on the dyno can provide a wealth of information. | ||
| Tootal |
What was your AFR once you had it dialed in. If you had it at 13.5:1 it would run really good and probably not ping but if you tried that combo and ran 14.7:1, like our Buell's do, then it would have pinged like crazy. I agree, fueling will make a difference but if your stuck with a non adjustable ecm then you have to go for timing and compression. | ||
| Hdxbones |
This is probably a good time for me to learn more about the Buell ECM. My 09 is still bone stock, intake/exhaust/etc., and I haven't really researched tuning options. My HD's are tuned for an approx AFR of 13.9:1 or less. With the '06 and later closed loop systems, anytime you set the desired afr below 14:1, the system will remain open loop, and not make corrections. AFR should stay where it's set. That said, is the 08-later Buell ecm adjustable for fuel delivery as well as timing? What is utilized for ecm access, Ecm Spy or Tuner Pro? Does EBR sell programmable ecm's? Are there any piggyback fueling devices available? I see that most people purchase EBR preprogrammed ecm's, is that the best option for adding additional fuel? Does anyone dyno tune their Buell? | ||
| Arcticktm |
I hate ethanol as much the next guy, but why would ethanol 93 (R+M)/2 be any more prone to knocking than pure gas at the same 93 octane rating? The only pure gas in my area goes up to 90 max, so I can't do a direct compare with the 10% ethanol 93 octane. I have been using the 90 octane pure lately, especially for storage and small engines (even though they are charging more for it than 93 10% ethanol). My highly unscientific research so far is that my particular Buell will ping a bit under roll on load when hot with either one of these fuels in my area. My hatred of ethanol is more due to long term effects/storage/water issues and the whole joke of the industry subsidies. Since it actually increases the octane of the fuel when added to pure gas, I am not quite following this. race series even use ethanol (of course with a highly controlled fuel quality). Anything to do with the extra oxygen the ethanol brings into the fuel? Just curious, and have not really studied ethanol with respect to knocking. | ||
| Tootal |
I'm sure a chemical engineer could tell us why, all I know is my mileage is a lot worse and I ping with ethanol. I'm with you, it's gov. subsidized BS!! On an 09 you will need tunerpro. I don't know anything about it but ecmspy will not work. EBR does sell a programmable ecm but it's rather pricey. (Message edited by tootal on April 29, 2013) | ||
| Uly_man |
"My experience has been that it simply CANNOT run cool enough, for long enough, to avoid pinging on a hot summer day (regardless of what brand high-octane fuel I use)". My 06 bike run like a furnace but I never had a problem at any temp with UK fuels. Ethnol is crap. "On an 09 you will need tunerpro. I don't know anything about it but ecmspy will not work". You can use ECM-SPY on any XB or R series bike. "Are there any piggyback fueling devices available?". Yes. I used a Remus Powerizer and found, with the Remus can, it made the low/mid range better. That one is fixed but some others can be changed to suit your bike. The AFV changes, to a point, the fueling over the ECM base map due to changing conditions. Some place of 90 to 110 is fine and nothing to worry on. If you un-plug the O2 sensor the AFV will remain the same as the ECM can not learn from the changing conditions. | ||
| Tootal |
You can use ECM-SPY on any XB or R series bike. I thought you were the one pushing the tunerpro! My free version of ecm-spy will not change anything on the 08+ so there must be a different version for the later bikes I don't know about. | ||
| Uly_man |
"My free version of ecm-spy will not change anything on the 08+ so there must be a different version for the later bikes I don't know about". You need the right version of ECM-SPY for your bike. You can get it from there site for a small donation fee to a hospital here in the UK. Nothing wrong with ECM-SPY its just that TunerPro is a "all in one" package inc logging. With ECM-SPY you need another prog, MegaSquirt, for logging runs and they charge for that. TunerPro is all free and works great. It does need a bit of time to learn it though. It depends on what you want to do but the logging of runs is the key issue if you have problems with FI engines. Anything else can be expensive guess work. I used ECM-SPY on my 06 bike, with no problem, and support the work Pash, Gunter and others have done with it and thank them for there help. | ||
| General_ulysses |
Be careful comparing octane ratings from Europe/UK and the US. There are several different methods for computing octane rating. The method used in the US is different than that used overseas and typically results in a rating ~5 points lower compared to that same fuel in UK/Euroland. To my knowledge ethanol, for all its evils, actually has the effect of increasing octane. Although the bike must be tuned to run richer in order to compensate for the lower energy content of ethanol vs pure gasoline. The lean run condition may be contributing to higher combustion temps which then lead to the pinging some people are referring to using ethanol laced fuel. | ||
| Uly_man |
I think that to be all true. The 06 bikes run very hot and maybe on the lean side given the mpg and the need for a fueler with a aftermarket can. My 10 bike seems to run rich and had no problem with a new can. As a thought the later KTM adv bikes have a switch you can use for bad fuel situations of other parts of the world. Now that is a clever idea. | ||
| General_ulysses |
I've been reading more about ECMSpy trying to understand how it works. If some folks are having problems with summer pinging (and I might be one of them this summer with my 06), it might be appropriate to develop a "summer fuel/ignition" map to be loaded during the hottest months. This map would differ from the off summer map in that it would retard timing and/or enrich fuel mixture in the rpm/throttle zones most likely to ping during summer running. I believe the cooling fan schedule can also be adjusted so that it comes on more frequently during hot events. It wouldn't surprise me if the original stock ECM map was developed for non ethanol gas. In the US, gasoline ethanol content and percentage varies from state to state and it has also changed over the years (usually with steadily increasing percentages in more places). It's probably a good idea for a knowledgeable tuner to develop a summertime map for 10% and even 15% ethanol. You could even have maps designed for what region you live in, as temperatures and ethanol content vary significantly depending on where you are in the country. | ||
| General_ulysses |
Oh yeah, out of curiosity, for those experiencing a lot of pinging, do you have the rider comfort kit installed? I've only had my bike a short while but even I saw a huge difference in observed heat and fan cycling after I installed the comfort kit. It really seems to help cool the hot rear cylinder down. | ||
| Tootal |
Yes, I have the comfort kit installed, stock muffler and modified air box with K&N. I have used ecmspy to tweek the numbers. I basically used a map for an 07 to change my 06 map and it really helped but still, I can be cruising at 70 mph and just roll on the throttle to pass a truck and it sounds like a can of marbles! I must have moved the timing back to it's original position during the Winter and forgot. The idea of a Summer map is a really good idea. I'm going to have to try that! | ||
| Arcticktm |
BMW has also done the "poor fuel" calibration thing on GS bikes. When I worked at Arctic Cat, we had a connection in the wiring harness that was normally connected. You were supposed to unplug it if you ran E10 fuel, which would basically richen up the calibration for the EFI. This was on high performance 2 strokes that can be much more sensitive to a lean condition. |
