| Author | Message | ||
     Skifastbadly |
Watch this: http://wheelstream.com/legendharleysilverdale/stoc k-t03315/ YouLeeSys? | ||
| Firstbuell |
well, lotsa folks have trouble with that name price seems 'dealer-ish'..... | ||
| Britchri10 |
Reminded me of when my UJM rider friend asked to pilot mu Uly. He spent 3 minutes trying to find where to put the ignition key in! Chris C | ||
| Johnboy777 |
I like the flat black plastics. Very Cool. I think Buell failed Buell as much, if not more, as HD failed Buell. Starting with the fuel-in-frame frame design for an air-cool engined motorcycle. WTF? How could you (or better yet, why would you) put an air-cooled engine in a big metal box? Who does that? Why do that? And in so doing have to add fans that gulp oil from the rocker box covers then fry, and constantly run all of that HOT air over two of your most valuable components--the ECM and rear shock. That makes good sense. The reason is that the frame was designed for a water-cooled engine from day one. HD took that water-cooled motor which Buell was working on for their VRod. Instead of going back to the tried and true tube frame design-like all other air-cooled engined bikes use-Buell pushed forward with the fuel-in-frame design (where was "form follows function"?) that caused the bike to suffer as a result of that decision. They were forever addressing heat-related issues with the XB. And why not - it was an air-cooled engine mounted in a big metal box. Now with a water-cooled engine, like the Rotax, it's brilliant. It was designed for a W/C engine. Then there's engine reliability--heat related--as well as over-tuning the 1200 for that last drop of HP - to the point that it will barely idle, run rough when cold, etc., etc., etc. Yeah, it's great wide open, but how often do street bikes run wide open. Forget about 1st gear slow speed maneuvers. And all you hear is---"Well now, that's just the way these Buell's run"...yeah, right. The truth is Buell failed---and it wasn't HD's fault, wish as we might, doesn't make it so. Just my 2cents. ... | ||
| Etennuly |
Johnboy777, so you don't like your Uly? Note; Water cooled engines produce heat also. I love riding my Uly still.....certainly would not call it a fail. | ||
| Johnboy777 |
""Johnboy777, so you don't like your Uly?"" Vern, I loved my Fiat Pininfarina Spider (see sample photo below) too -- but it was wickedly unreliable...I went so far as to send away to Italy for transmission parts. Stupefacente! Love has nothing to do with the reality of a matter. That spider was with out a doubt, both the best and worst car I've ever owned.  (Message edited by johnboy777 on May 10, 2012) | ||
| Froggy |
Yep and if HD didn't screw around with Erik the way they did, the XB would have been watercooled from day one. (Message edited by Froggy on May 10, 2012) | ||
| Johnboy777 |
""Yep and if HD didn't screw around with Erik the way they did, the XB would have been water-cooled from day one."" True. But they did, and he force fit that bloody frame on that air-cooled engine, because he wanted that frame on his motorcycles regardless (in spite of) the type of engine it had. Was that a sound engineering decision? Or was he in love with that frame. Buell was not the first to use a fuel-in-frame design. The frame came first---truth be told. "We'll make it work, somehow". Then they chased all the gremlins (that resulted from that decision) until it stopped production. The HD relationship was certainly a double-edged sword. And don't forget he received cash and HD stock (and stock options, plus an employment contract) for selling his company to HD. It was a money maker for Erik, no doubt. He's not poor because of his selling out to HD. Plus, it gave him an instant distribution network and funds to move forward and build upon his designs...but at a very high price. Kinda like selling your soul to the devil, I imagine. They micro-managed him into a corner. One could argue of course, that it was the situation (e.g., the Buell/HD marriage) that failed Buell - not HD, and not Buell. HD was the 900lb. gorilla, getting its way, all the time. But the truth most often lies somewhere in the middle, right? Just a thought. ... (Message edited by johnboy777 on May 10, 2012) | ||
| 7873jake |
Actually Ski, its a vers-I-tile you-lee-sys. ouch. At least they didn't describe it as being "built on tried-and-true sportster architecture". Hate it when I hear that one Johnboy, I always had a weakness for that Fiat Spydah ever since the sister of a girlfriend in high school let me drive hers. That car is like most boats...best ones to drive are the ones owned by a neighbor but I could never shake the desire to buy one and stick a Civic or Corolla engine in one and then hot it up. (Message edited by 7873jake on May 10, 2012) | ||
| Firstbuell |
fortunately, I pretty much knew from the very beginning what I was getting into with my new '99 M2 [1] found PACBOG & American Thunder group online, & eventually, BadWeb [2] attended 2 ASBN gatherings, meeting Danny, Jack, JimA, Woz, Rex, Fireman Jim & all the NorCal gang [3] abandoned belief that it'd be immediately reliable - my only bike - being quite familiar with the DeTomaso Pantera saga & [correctly] anticipating that my Buell ownership experience would be similar [4] purchased the M2 from an AMA Pro 883 Series-savvy, Championship-winning dealer - received a well-detailed delivery from one of his top, race-tuning mechanics [5] bought the factory 7-yr warranty [for mebbe $800 - a KEY part of my overall satisfaction] my M2 has: - always burned/used/leaked a little oil - shown to be nicely lo-side crashable, on either side - suffered most every motor/exhaust issue common to that era's Buells [& Sportsters, for that matter] - proved 100% reliable otherwise [thanks to Donny Rabb, Feike Banning, Terry Parseley & FMJ] - been festooned with American Sport Bike stuff - thanx, Al thank G-d, Tuono Joice owns 2 'prilers - so I've always had some bike to ride...... in sum, no regrets I believe that an XB12Ss is my own M2 - evolved - & so will always wonder about having one, or alternatively, its only air-cooled competition - a big Ducati Monster or a carefully-upgraded Ducati GT1000 all in all, I'd rather own either Buell..... | ||
| Bobbuell1961 |
As i know it he was also promised a water cooled engine. Not that i know a thing. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I love my fuel in frame air cooled pushrod bikes. I think they are brilliant. | ||
| Beached |
Right on Reepicheep. Elegant engineering is using the simplest design to accomplish the desired result. | ||
| Al_lighton |
How could you (or better yet, why would you) put an air-cooled engine in a big metal box? Who does that? Why do that? Fact is, if you want to raise the power limits of an air cooled engine (or any other power dissipating device, for that matter), the thing you do is: 1) Add forced convection. 2) Put it in a box and control that convection. 3) Optimize the fin/spreader design in the box. I'm not saying Buell's implementation was perfect (they really only did 2 out of 3 above). But the basic concept (frame as an air tunnel) is incredibly sound, not at all ludicrous as you propose. Marketing, aesthetic, and production cost constraints prevent more thermally optimized configurations from seeing the light of day. I'd bet that cylinder fins that aligned front to rear with the flow path across both cylinders were considered, and I'd also bet that more aircraft engine inspired fin densities were investigated as well. But I'd also bet that HD imposed constraints prevented those types of innovative designs from ever occurring. The proposed short stroke 1200 engine didn't fit the "brand equity" of the sportster ancestors or, as it turns out in the case of the XR1200, Buell descendants. For the same reasons, I'm sure radically different looking air cooled cylinders/head wouldn't stand a chance of getting implemented at HD. All liquid cooled bikes have fans too. For the very same reasons: thermal/power density. They also have water pumps. Fans suck. They're loud, they break, they need controls. But they're necessary when you start making ever higher powered systems. They're also not very expensive, not hard to change or diagnose failure on. Much of my career prior to American Sport Bike was largely thermal management of systems, almost all air cooled, of ever increasing thermal density. So I do know a thing or two about such things. Al | ||
| Reepicheep |
Also, remember that the goal for fuel in the frame wasn't to put fuel in the frame. It was to make a big enough airbox for a twin, without making the bike look goofy. Go pull and replace the airbox out of an inline four some day and come back and tell us again that you think fuel in the frame is a bad idea... It's an awful job. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Marketing, aesthetic, and production cost constraints prevent more thermally optimized configurations from seeing the light of day. I'd bet that cylinder fins that aligned front to rear with the flow path across both cylinders were considered, and I'd also bet that more aircraft engine inspired fin densities were investigated as well. But I'd also bet that HD imposed constraints prevented those types of innovative designs from ever occurring. The proposed short stroke 1200 engine didn't fit the "brand equity" of the sportster ancestors or, as it turns out in the case of the XR1200, Buell descendants. For the same reasons, I'm sure radically different looking air cooled cylinders/head wouldn't stand a chance of getting implemented at HD. Cool info. All that just reinforces what I keep saying, I'd REALLY like to see what EBR could do for a clean-sheet design air-cooled V-twin. | ||
| Tleighbell |
Could the heat issue be one reason for starting with the smaller engine on the XB series? My XB9S did not have the heat issues of the 12, and with the race kit was (IMHO)a sweeter running engine. I drove a KTM Super Duke (probably not a bad prototype of what a liquid cooled Buell engine might have been like) and found the engine like an SV650 on steroids. Faster than the Buell but for the road I certainly preferred the feel of the Buell engine. Just a matter of personal preference. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I do smell the "helping" hand of HD in the stroke of the XB12. The 9 is SUCH a sweet motor. And I bet a short stroke 12 would be just as sweet. But it would be down on torque (though up on power). I've always suspected that a 9 with an 1150 kit was a better motor than the 12. I do like my long stroke 12 for feel and fuel economy though. But I would trade both for the reliability of the 9 (though mine is working fine so far). | ||
| Johnboy777 |
Hi Al, You are correct, of course; all things being equal, engines that run hotter are more efficient and cleaner burning. So let me make sure I understand what you are telling me – Erik stuck an air-cooled engine in a big metal box based on the principle of thermodynamic efficiency. Knowing full well, that in so doing, his motorcycles would be both more fuel efficient and cleaner burning due to the added heat. Brilliant! I never would have connected the dots on that one. And this had nothing to do whatsoever with HD pulling his water-cooled engine from him, and Buell having to go back to the air-cooled 1200, once again. Now I imagine that all manufacturers will follow Buell’s lead, and place their air-cooled engines in big metal boxes so that they too can have more efficient and cleaner burning engines. Thanks for clarifying this – it makes perfect sense now. John ... | ||
| Buewulf |
I am not a huge fan of the fuel-frame, either. It makes good sense, but it sure is ugly (to me anyway). And while Al made some great and interesting points about the benefits of using the frame as a tunnel to control temperature, I have to agree with JohnBoy. You can't take a 2/3 approach on a critical issue like that especially when you know you are going to be using a Sportster engine built to within an inch of its life. Personally, I think if the XB were a water-cooled bike to begin with, or even a more sophisticated, purpose-built, air-cooled engine, that the Buell story would be much different today. When I think how much lighter the bike could have been with a proper engine and tranny, these little XBs could have made waves had they been able to put an honest 100 hp to the wheel. | ||
| Reepicheep |
*shrug*. A water cooled engine is just an air cooled engine that has been put in a big metal box, but had the metal box filled with coolant and circulated in controlled ways. Doesn't seem unreasonable to put an air cooled in a big metal box, fill the box with air, and circulate it in controlled ways. John, I'll meet you in Westerville (north of Columbus) tonight with a trailer and a $3000 cashiers check and buy your Uly (with the bits you put in the classified).... provided it doesn't make awful crank clanking noises. | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
turbo.... the XB was gonna have a TURBO til H-D killed that idea... 150 HP 120 TQ test mules were said to be more reliable than the none Turbo counterparts... Turbo.... we could've, should've had a turbo  | ||
| Uly_man |
"The HD relationship was certainly a double-edged sword." True enough. A lot of Tubers had many problems and gave Buell a very bad reputation for not being reliable in the UK. So much so that they could hardly sell them and made for a bad start to the XB series. The on-going problems with the XBs and the apathy of many a HD dealer sealed the fate of Buells here. I found two good dealers but both were 70 miles away. My local one, who I would have bought a bike from, was so bad they could not even sell me two plugs the SAME? HD is all "tassles and branding" these days. At least here anyway. Ok so a big "in-line" air cooled V-Twin engine with its rear cylinder and heads stuffed in the frame does not make the best of sense. But it can work and now does with the 2010 bike. My 06 bike worked but as said it was cooking everything and it was going to be a problem sooner or later. I still maintain that if my oil cooler was doing what it should have, as with the 2010 bike, it would have been less of a problem. They may have wanted to use a water cooled engine but how were the rads going to be placed on the bike? Like the R/CR? I love the R and still want one but those rad cowls are something that for me does not add much to the look of the bike. The XB is not perfect but then what is. It does however have something special and unique about it. It is the only bike I have ever had that puts a real thrill into every ride. Even something boring as a trip to the shops or going to work on it makes me smile. And thats good enough for me any day of the week and the reason I had to have another. | ||
| Skifastbadly |
Jeeze guys, I was making fun of the dealer. This intertube, it's a funny thing. | ||
| Firstbuell |
well, much of it WAS [& still is] "the dealer"  [;s (Message edited by firstbuell on May 11, 2012) | ||
| Buellerxt |
Thank goodness ol' Ski is such an instigator;otherwise we wouldn't have had this interesting thread!  J/K Ski, but I have enjoyed the thread. Johnboy, thanks for expressing your opinions. Without them we wouldn't have gotten the feedback and learned what we have! Al, great stuff, Man. Thank you. Very interesting indeed. Uly_man, I'm right with you on that daily dose of 'wow, this is a unique and fun bike'! Interesting thread and good input by all! Oh yeah, not only do I think the oil in swingarm and gas in frame is cool, and works well, but I also think the overall Uly look and feel is COOL! | ||
| Froggy |
Behind the rear cylinder.  | ||
| Uly_man |
Hard to see the design on it Frog but I am sure it could be done. A few bike use a rear/subframe rad cooling system. Was it the Bellinie or what ever spelling? | ||
| Skifastbadly |
I don't get it. It looks like the fan is either drawing air back wards, pushing it through the radiator, and then onto the rear cylinder, which would make today's hot leg seem mild, or it's pulling the air off the cylinder which is already hot, to cool the coolant. I need a theoretical radiatorologist to 'splain this one. (Message edited by skifastbadly on May 11, 2012) | ||
| Uly_man |
"I need a theoretical radiatorologist to 'splain this one." Thats me. What do you want to know? Its $50 per quarter hour. |
