| Author | Message | ||
     Hmartin |
Does anyone know of another US-based supplier for the blue James intake seals besides Dennis Kirk? They've been out of them for a while, now. | ||
| Pontlee77 |
Just want to point out that they are way hard to fit in, buy some original ones, but if you really want the James try twin motorcycles from Holand they carry them, shoudent be expensive if the send them in a flat envelope. Here is the link: http://www.twinmotorcycles.nl/webshop/artikel.asp? guid=YXHFSC&aid=1694&cid=442&s=&a= | ||
| Tootal |
The James seals require you to remove some length from the manifold/throttebody to allow their design to be installed. You might be able to squeeze them in there but you might distort them too. I've been working on my own design to rid us of the PITA design of the Harley derived flange seals. I've been testing for over a year on the Harley and am having real success. The Buell is next for the test. As soon as I'm convinced my design is fool proof I am going to have a bunch made along with a poor man patent. I talked to a patent lawyer who told me that patent's were for corporations who have money to fight and preserve the patent, not for a dumb smuck like me. He said to make a sh*t load and sell as many as I can before some thief takes one to China and floods the market!! Once we have the throttle body shaft finished we will start working on intake flanges. Stay tuned!  | ||
| Tootal |
Looks like you can buy from James now, here is a link. http://store.jamesgaskets.com/product_info.php?products_id=518  | ||
| Panhead_dan |
Tootal, I believe you got good advice on the patent thing. Gear up and market the heck out of them. I for one would buy a real setup from you rather than an import knockoff every time, as would anyone wanting your products reliability and performance. Keep the price right and they will sell but the market is thin compared to other bike brands so don't go out and buy that boat yet. By the way, I want one asap. (Message edited by panhead_dan on November 06, 2010) | ||
| Tootal |
Dan, the nice thing is the Buell uses the same ones that have been on Harleys' since around 1988 or so. It's a huge market, that's why I'm not just making a few for the Badwebber's and giving them away. | ||
| Johnboy777 |
I've held patents and that is good advise. Greg, are you saying that in order to take advantage of the GJ gaskets, that you need to machine the intake? I'm confused (as usual) Thanks. (Message edited by johnboy777 on November 06, 2010) | ||
| Xbimmer |
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/142 838/395530.html | ||
| Tootal |
John, the James seals have a lip that fits between the end of the throttle body flanges and the heads. The stock ones do not. They operate with a small gap between the two. The gap is not always big enough to accommodate the James seal and you have to file the throttle body down so it fits in there. Some folks have to and some don't. I personally did have to do this. You need to take equal amounts off of both sides. Measure from the edge of the machined area out to the end of the TB. Try and keep it equal. Do a little at a time, (1/64", .015"), and try it. If you have to force it in to get your flange screws to start then take a little more. They take a little work but work much better than stock. However, I have had them leak also, that's why I designed my own. I believe there is too much tolerance in the machining of the cylinders and heads that cause the compound angle to be out of spec. on some bikes. That's why some have this problem and some don't. | ||
| Panhead_dan |
I've never pulled a head off a Buell yet but on my '50FL, you need to align the heads and intake with the headbolts loose. A little play exists which provides decent intake alignment, if used. | ||
| Tootal |
Dan, that was true on my 91 FLHS. They had a 3/8" hole in the cylinder and a 1/4" pin in the casing. To get it set right I had to use an old Ramm Jett intake I had laying around. I bolted it on and then torqued my heads. I finally got it to seal. The 2002 Road Glide has a little bit of play too but it won't let me get them in the right place hence my problems. It's just my luck to get a bad one. I had a great running, great handling Road Glide and some pickup driver hit me at a stop light at 45 mph! Totaled the bike and the replacement wasn't even close to the same. After several years I have it dialed in now but I still like the original better. | ||
| Hmartin |
Not hearing of any other domestic suppliers, I went ahead and picked up some regular-old Harley seals. Took less than 2 hours to swap them out since I had already cut down a hex key and a 1/2" ratchet from last time. I spent most of that time cleaning the bearing surfaces. The Torx bolt on the left side had fallen out (I guess I didn't tighten it down enough last time; could be why the seals started leaking again). I replaced it with a 1/4" hex bolt and a lock washer. We'll see if that holds. I guess when Dennis Kirk gets some back in, I'll order a couple. I hope I don't have any more leaks for a while, but if history is any teacher, it wouldn't hurt to have some ready to go in...unless, Tootal, your Buell tests come out good. | ||
| Paul56 |
I didn't find it necessary to grind the manifold for clearance when installing the James seals on my 06. They are a snug fit, so I made it easier to get all the bolts started by slightly overdrilling the right side bolt-holes in the flanges and enlarging the hole in the left side bracket. I also used a 1-1/2" long 1/4-20 bolt with an all metal locknut installed on the bolt backward in place of the short Torx-head bolt in the left bracket. Much easier to install and tighten. | ||
| Tootal |
Paul, if you drill out the holes your manifold will not be lined up properly to the ports in the head. There will be a step. This will affect high rpm flow which will cut HP. | ||
| Hmartin |
Just d@mn. The new seals worked for about 50 miles. Now it's back to uneven idle, coughing and spitting again. I thoroughly cleaned all machined surfaces both times. I greased them last time. This time I didn't. I searched other forums and there's no end to suggestions for things to smear on there to get them to work, but no definite answers. Unless or until I can find another type of gasket, what's the surefire trick to getting the Harley gaskets to seal? | ||
| Paul56 |
It's important to find out exactly where the vacuum leak is. After installing my new throttle body with James seals I had a vacuum leak with the usual crappy idle and off idle backfire. I put about 12" of small diameter vacuum hose over the straw of a can of Brakleen (the kind with the "Highly flammable" warning on the can) and very carefully applied the spray to specific parts of the intake tract. My vacuum leak was at the front injector. The lower injector o-ring wasn't sealing the injector to the throttle body. Only by precisely applying the spray was I able to find it. | ||
| Hmartin |
I got them, put them on, and they're leaking. How on God's green earth? They were a royal pain to install. I didn't have to file the intake down any, but I did have a helluva time getting the rear bolt to start, even with sil-glyde, but after much persistence and a little prying, I was able to get it to line up without cross-threading it. Tightening it all down took quite a bit of time, too, since I alternated a full turn with each bolt. With that much gasket crammed in there, there's no way it could leak...or so I thought. I tested with carb cleaner and with propane. Spray tests were inconclusive, but the propane test on either gasket causes the rpm's to jump up at first and then causes it to nearly stall. Sure doesn't sound right to me. Please, what now??? I'm dumbfounded to still have this problem. | ||
| Pontlee77 |
Hello Hmartin, I did also install those seals and had the same problem, as i had bought a new set of original gaskets I put them on and solved the problem, and at over 40k kilometers with the original ones if the shaft haden't broken I'd be still using the original ones with no issue, and of course far easier to install, just needed a good tps reset. | ||
| Tootal |
If you have to cram them in there then you tightened them up all the way they are probably distorted. I would file some off the manifold and then snug the bolts down but don't go over 90 inch lbs. on the torque. The manual should have a torque spec. so use it, I just remember it's pretty light. If you jam it down the flanges will bend and then you have unequal pressure on them and they will leak around the manifold itself. | ||
| Hmartin |
OK, I hear ya. I'm just not much of a machinist as I only have tools for general repair work. I'm just amazed that, with that much compression evident, these seals are leaking. Perhaps something's warped. I just know that I, for one, look forward to having a better choice some day - if I don't sell this %&$@! thing first. | ||
| Tootal |
If you pull it out I'll bet the flanges are bent. Try straightening them in a vise with a rubber hammer. ( Gently!) Remove 1/32" from each side of the Throttle Body and reinstall. Tighten each side of the flanges evenly until you reach 70 to 90 inch lbs. This is just slightly more than snug. If there is any leak then tighten them a 1/4 turn each. That's how I got my last ones to last. I think the secret is even pressure around the diameter. I just know that I, for one, look forward to having a better choice some day I'm working on it...  | ||
| Petebueller |
One problem with fitting the James seals is the amount of room to have to work with. They are a lot easier to fit with the engine rotated. I've got them on my bike and the've cured the leak Tootal. A friend developed a really smart product that is now the mainstay of his business. It took a couple of years to patent it, and a lot of money. A major motorcycle manufacturer liked the idea and built it standard into their bikes. My friend went to take action against the manufacturer but while he was in the right it was going to take $6,000 to open the case and would have run into $100s of thou. The lawyer advised him that he wouldn't survive the law suit. He should have been making them two years earlier, making money and the name being the original and the best. He doesn't bother with patents anymore. | ||
| Hmartin |
I took the James seals back off, and here's what I found:    It looks like the seal was compressed underneath the ends of the intake plenum, but the bolt impeded on the edge of the seals enough to warp them. They were indeed leaking that way. I put the newer Harley seals back on today with liberal amounts of Sil-Glyde and it's gone from being crappy to just annoying. It passed the propane test good enough, I guess, but it's still coughing and backfiring through the intake from time to time. I'm either going to take this thing to the shop or sell it, or both. Any chance this might also be an ECM problem? | ||
| Tootal |
That happens on stock seals too. Not the problem. Is it coughing only before it's warmed up? What are the temps in your area? At cold temps it's hard to get fuel to atomize and they will occasionally cough until fully warmed up. | ||
| Hmartin |
Ambient temp was 60-ish yesterday. Coughs / backfires at all times - worse when cold, of course, but hot, too; it doesn't seem to matter. It happens at idle, when coming off of idle, and in closed loop cruise (which reminds me - I probably didn't run it in closed loop long enough for it to readjust, although I did reset the TPS and AFV before testing). It's an ongoing problem, though, that's been getting progressively worse over the last year or so. Replacing the seals is the only thing that seemed to help, but only temporarily. After hearing about others' success with the James Seals, I figured that would be the cure. | ||
| Tootal |
There is another seal out there that might work for you. It has the same shape as the blue James but it has a metal ring molded inside that keeps it from distorting, however, you can't over tighten them or the rubber will still distort. I think James makes them too, just a different model. I bought both and put the blue ones on the Harley and the metal one on the Buell. They both worked for a while. The Blue ones started to leak on the Harley and that's when I designed my own and have been leak free ever since, but the black metal ring ones had to be snugged once and have done the best so far. I still don't think they're perfect but until I have time to put my own on there they have lasted the longest so far. http://www.denniskirk.com/jsp/product_catalog/Prod uct.jsp?skuId=&store=Main&catId=&productId=p149384 &leafCatId=&mmyId= | ||
| Petebueller |
Hmartin The symptoms I had with my intake seals was different. The bike would run OK but the revs would hang on decel unless I dropped the idle to about 850. If I had the idle up at 1000 on a hot day the idle would creep up to 2000 in stop start city traffic. Are you able you check your AFV? Can you check it a few times after you ride it to see how far the AFV is drifting from 100? When I was playing with an baffle I found that the tune for the performance system would drop the AFV from 100 to 84 all the time when I had the baffle. The bike would run smoothly with the AFV reset to 100. Anyway I played with locking my min AFV to 100 and then to 94. It made a big difference. Still the odd hiccup sitting on a constant 3000 rpm when the bike was warming up mainly but occasional and nothing that worried me. (In the end I found that the baffle worked better with the stock tune) You asked if it could be the ECM. I think it could be. It could also just be corrosion on the connector pins (there are a few BadWeb posts on this). I've probably done every stupid thing when I've played with my bike and one of them was not to plug the ECM connector in tight enough. I'm surprised the muffler survived some of the backfires I got from that. It could also be sensors. I guess you've checked all of that, but two that you might not have looked at are the static timing and the IAT sensor. The IAT sensor can affect AFV. I'm hoping you sort it. When they run right an XB is the nicest bike. | ||
| Wademan |
Sheesh. I installed James intake seals to cure what I thought was a vac leak, and it didn't fix it. Now I wonder if I installed the seals correctly, I remember it being a PITA but I thought I had done the job correctly. Good luck OP. I too am trying to fix my poor uly from similar symptoms. | ||
| Hmartin |
Leaking again (sigh). I noticed when I took the James seals off and put the Harley seals back on it that the retaining screw on the side of the intake plenum does not hold it exactly on-center. It pulls the intake slightly to the left. That may be the problem since the leak is evident in both seals on the right side. It probably just needs a washer or something (I'll try to get a picture, but it's pretty tight in there). My next attempt will be to cut the lip off of the James seals and try them again. Bad idea or no? | ||
| Pontlee77 |
I moved the AIT to under the fly screen made a metal piece to hold it in place and screwed it to one of the top bolts that holds the upper part of the fairing, it gives a much accurate reading of the air temperature,a friend with an X1 did that and cured his problem, mine was no problem but I guess the ecm will work better with a real temperature reading. |
