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Arcticktm
| | Posted on Monday, April 20, 2009 - 12:42 pm: | 
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Not looking to argue with Vern's good experience, but as an ex-engine development guy, I would be very reluctant to switch to straight 50W on a regular basis (though I do not doubt it would have the positive impact it did for him).
A high percentage of your total engine wear comes during each cold start/warm up, and super thick 50W is going to take that much longer to get into all the tight spots than a nice modern multi-viscosity will.
Maybe it is not quite as big a deal on H-D engines with roller bearings, but there are still places that are counting on a thin oil film to run on. |
Nvr2old
| | Posted on Monday, April 20, 2009 - 01:22 pm: |
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Just made the 1000 mile service appointment with local dealer. He said according to HD, don't worry about oil usage until after 3500 miles. Just keep the level up between add and full, and definitely no synthetic yet. |
Rwven
| | Posted on Monday, April 20, 2009 - 01:31 pm: |
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"Just made the 1000 mile service appointment with local dealer. He said according to HD, don't worry about oil usage until after 3500 miles. Just keep the level up between add and full, and definitely no synthetic yet."
That sounds about right. For the first 3500 it seemed like I was adding oil all the time. I have 8500 on now and I haven't added a drop since the last oil change (2500 miles ago). |
Electraglider_1997
| | Posted on Monday, April 20, 2009 - 01:34 pm: |
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I believe that all new Harleys come with full synthetic straight from the factory. |
Nvr2old
| | Posted on Monday, April 20, 2009 - 01:38 pm: |
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Just CVO's I believe. My '08 EGC did not. But it's got syn3 in it now. |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Monday, April 20, 2009 - 05:45 pm: |
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Also, keep in mind that the rear preload settings also directly affect oil levels on the stick. The higher the preload setting, the greater the swingarm deflection downward away from the bottom of the seat. This results in the oil "sloshing" toward the back of the swingarm and away from the stick.
Since you don't check the oil while sitting on the bike, the level is highly variable based upon the suspension settings.
Oil CAN pass the rings given engine temperature variances between the pistons and the cylinder walls on air-cooled engines. Oil consumption on VW engines was a big problem for this reason.
Additionally, HOW you ride affects the amount of blow by (or suck by). Engine braking particularly from higher RPMs creates a significant amount of suction whereby oil can be sucked past the rings. This condition is greater in air-cooled engines than in water cooled because of the variances in temperature. |
Electraglider_1997
| | Posted on Monday, April 20, 2009 - 05:55 pm: |
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AND looser tolerances on the air cooled engine. |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Monday, April 20, 2009 - 07:06 pm: |
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I would hazard a guess that few Harleys are spun up to the redline that Buells are on a regular basis.
As the engine breaks in, the engine runs cooler. The heat variances decrease allowing the tolerances to tighten. |
Packdog
| | Posted on Monday, April 20, 2009 - 10:49 pm: |
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+1 on Fattys HOW you ride affects the amount of blow by (or suck by).
If I fill mine to the top of the XXXXX's and ride it like grandma it will level out to about 3 X's in 2500 miles. That was a MAJOR exercise in restraint!
As I discovered at the first oil change, when I fill the filter, then the swingarm, then the oil level is about 3.5 X's. Obviously that is with cold oil, but it gave me an idea of my starting oil level. After a quick ride to warm everything up, it was still at 3.5 - so between the heat expansion of the oil and the oil filling in the air spaces left from draining the oil, that is where it equalized.
If I ride it normally it settles at 2 X's.
If I really flog it hard a lot it settles at 1.5 X's.
Now, this oil is definitely going through the breather hoses and into the intake. Most of it gets burned, but some does pool in the air box.
As long as your plugs are not wet/oily, then you are not getting excessive oil into the combustion chamber and your engine is healthy. |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 07:53 am: |
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Since you don't check the oil while sitting on the bike
I checked the oil once with a passenger on the bike. About had a heart attack until I realized what was up. |
Nvr2old
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 08:45 am: |
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Makes sense, I think I've been mistaking a steady loss of oil as an inconsistent level. I really don't care where it levels off, just that it will level off eventually.
Several responders and the dealer said to give it more miles to finally break in. The cold weather during the 1st 1000 miles has restricted me to short duration rides. I don't think that's ideal for break in.
I had a '78 BMW R100S that I modified for dual ignition, and at the same time was putting in lightened pistons and wristpins and some other things to make it rev freer. The guy that did the head and cylinder work told me to assemble everything dry, with oil in the pan of course, and to start it up and take it to 5000 rpm and hold it there for a 10 count. I followed his suggestion and rode the bike another 50k miles without adding a drop of oil between changes. Instant break in I guess. |
Xbimmer
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 10:28 am: |
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I had a '78 BMW R100S... Still got mine:
I was told the same thing about dry high rpm start up when I went to Luftmeister 3-piece oil rings. Went from 1 qt per 1K miles to almost nothing.
Just made the 1000 mile service appointment with local dealer. He said according to HD, don't worry about oil usage until after 3500 miles. Just keep the level up between add and full, and definitely no synthetic yet.
That's odd... at my 1K service they sold me on the Syn3 swap engine and trans, of course at the time they weren't aware that the sales dept had sold me the bike with free service for two years. Guess they were hoping for a few more bucks from me. |
Electraglider_1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 10:40 am: |
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I love those fork gators. I take the time to put them on all my bikes that'll take them. I even put them on my wife's 07' Sportster. Gives the bike the old timey look and preserves those seals which is the reason for the boots in the first place. |
Nvr2old
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 10:49 am: |
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Xbimmer, you're making me cry. God, I wish I still had that bike. Great job keeping it, it's beautiful.
I had a riding buddy that owned a '76 900S, in the eyecatching orange. We rode all over the country. Most comfortable, most reliable, best looking sport touring bike ever! |
Xbimmer
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 11:29 am: |
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Natexlh1000
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 09:21 pm: |
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heh! I hadn't even thought of the suspension being compressed.
I need to experiment a bit...
Oh and nice BMW!
Back when you could run an ironbutt without losing the shaft? |
Electraglider_1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 22, 2009 - 11:43 am: |
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Wouldn't the suspension be compressed only if you were sitting on it or were fully loaded. |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 22, 2009 - 12:47 pm: |
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Compression is only part of the equation.
The suspension is raised when you dial in preload. You can see the bike rise as you dial it in. |
Hangetsu
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 22, 2009 - 01:08 pm: |
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I had a R90S and toured the country on it. Fully loaded, the suspension was never an issue; at least not by the standards of the day. But I find people complain far too much these days; about issues that back then would simply be business as usual. |
Nvr2old
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 22, 2009 - 01:42 pm: |
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True enough, I think it may have something to do with the prices. While prices may actually be less when considering wage inflation, I don't think we always think of that.
And back then you could actually fix things. For example on the BMW's discussed in this thread, if you saw your voltmeter reading going up, you could pull out the mechanical voltage regulator, open it up, and clean the contacts. The problem was solved.
You could adjust timing and carburation without a computer.
Oh, for the good ole days! |
Froggy
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 22, 2009 - 02:37 pm: |
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quote:Oh, for the good ole days!
I recently got into a pissing match on here debating that. I have a hard time fixing stuff that isn't electronic, yet last night I hacked my cell phone, changed its operating system, changed its radio, now I got 50% more battery life and about 20% better reception. I for the life of me can't figure out how to rejet a carb, but have made some adjustments to my ECM on the side of the road because I was not happy with the way my bike was running while tearing up the Dragon.  |
Etennuly
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 22, 2009 - 04:17 pm: |
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I consulted with an elder HD tech and my service manual before putting in 60W for the first time. I was thinking that was gearlube.
The tech explained to me about how his recent required tech school studied the molecular structures of the oils. How they bound together, shear strength, lubricity, mix-ability, etc. He told me to follow the book on the viscosity and the engine would never have a oil based reason to fail. He said they also tested mixing different straight W values and stated the molecular structures do not fit together causing the oil to separate, causing a cottage cheese effect.
I ran the stuff according to the service manual chart basing my use on temperature. I put enough miles on my bike that timing the oil changes for climate changes was not a problem.
When it is time to put in the 60W, remember to be patient with the funnel. It flows slow. Warm up the engine a bit even on warmer days.
Who am I to argue with people whom have presented the World with motorcycles for over a hundred years? They have spent more money than most will make in a life time, testing and teaching their techs about how oils work in the engines they have designed. After all, they want to protect them so that they don't have issues with failures. So then I do. I run Mobil 1 V-Twin oil, basically with the hope that if it weren't for the cost, they would run it from the factory. Also, because I want to. |
Smolt
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 22, 2009 - 04:44 pm: |
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quote:Froggy wrote:
I recently got into a pissing match on here debating that. I have a hard time fixing stuff that isn't electronic, yet last night I hacked my cell phone, changed its operating system, changed its radio, now I got 50% more battery life and about 20% better reception. I for the life of me can't figure out how to rejet a carb, but have made some adjustments to my ECM on the side of the road because I was not happy with the way my bike was running while tearing up the Dragon.
Hey Froggy,
I think that is cool but I'm the opposite. I can typically fix mechanical stuff and have a willingness to dive into it. The electronic/computerized stuff not so much. I guess it is all a matter of familiarity. I have a friend who is like you and will tinker with his computer endlessly but he won't touch a carburetor. I need to learn some of your skills in manipulating the ECM settings on my bike. What device were you using to do the roadside adjustments? |
Froggy
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 22, 2009 - 07:21 pm: |
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ECMspy, its worth its weight in gold. Its a great tool for whether you just need to figure out the check engine light, or do something more complex like play with fueling. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, April 23, 2009 - 08:52 am: |
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>>>no synthetic yet.
Baloney. |
Nvr2old
| | Posted on Thursday, April 23, 2009 - 09:09 am: |
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Baloney.
Haven't tried that yet. |
Ullygan
| | Posted on Thursday, April 23, 2009 - 09:35 am: |
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It's quite tastey 
I'm running Amsoil 20w50, no problems. |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Thursday, April 23, 2009 - 01:46 pm: |
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I ran the stuff according to the service manual chart basing my use on temperature.
Do you find that chart as useless as I do? It has a low temperature range but not an upper temperature range. And it's not at all clear what the optimal weight is, only the acceptable weights. It's like they went out of their way to avoid making a recommendation. |
Hughlysses
| | Posted on Thursday, April 23, 2009 - 02:01 pm: |
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quote:Do you find that chart as useless as I do? It has a low temperature range but not an upper temperature range. And it's not at all clear what the optimal weight is, only the acceptable weights. It's like they went out of their way to avoid making a recommendation.
+1 to that. |
Xcephasx
| | Posted on Saturday, April 25, 2009 - 12:50 pm: |
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straight 60?! wow. i live in las vegas, ride year round and run 20/50 full syn. got blow-by only at wot and high rpm for the first 5k miles or so. not a real significant problem now. needs less than a half quart between oil changes. dont bother checking the oil level when the bike is cold... it will just scare you. when the bike is warmed up, as long as there is oil on the XXXX's i don't worry.
on my 2000 sportster... that was another story. i was blowing oil out of that thing like a well in texas. couldn't go a hundred miles without a jug of oil and a rag to wipe the bike down. i switched to flat fifty and it helped a lot.
ecm spy: my wife just gave me a palm she found at school!!! i need a charger for it, but i'm really looking forward to that. much more convenient than bunjee-cording a laptop to the back of the bike.
(06 xb12x) |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - 08:18 am: |
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The H-D Synthetic even states right on the bottle that it is good for use from day one in new motorcycles, that there are no limitations to its use wrt break-in in any H-D product. |
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