| Author | Message | ||
     Court |
>>>Is there an actual number? I suspect it's more a pattern than nominal number. There are a couple pretty sharp folks who monitor and track everything THAT GETS REPORTED. If a pattern develops I suspect it would move something, generally tracked in a Pareto fashion, onto the radar screen. Then an analysis is done to look for root cause and to determine if it's a vendor or build issue and a response deployed. As an engineer you'd appreciate how little validity there is in some sweeping assumptions not based in fact and the silliness that a manufacturer, the folks providing the warranty, intentionally sourced "cheap" parts. | ||
| Court |
>>>>they care about the amount of downtime the bike experiences. Which seems in concert with Buells objective of "an uninterrupted ownership experience". By the way the last 500MW powerplant we built had Taiwanese bearing in the G.E. Turbines we bought from China. $1,400,000,000 doesn't see to go as far as it used to. | ||
| Skyclad |
>>>Which seems in concert with Buells objective of "an uninterrupted ownership experience". Oh, I am certainly getting ownership experience.  Just joking actually. While it is frustrating, I still absolutely love this bike. Fighting through difficulties like this sucks, but it kind of goes with getting a relatively new model. They all have teething problems. My Uly gets used hard. Since I bought the bike in January, I have been averaging over 1500 miles per month, riding in all weather and over all types of roads, including gravel, dirt and mud. I knew about the reported bearing problems before I bought the bike, so I can't say that I am really surprised. I am disappointed that I seem to have had worse luck than most in this category, but I still say, "Go ahead, try to take my Uly away from me...it ain't gonna be pretty." | ||
| Arcticktm |
Every company I have been involved with (engine OEM's and powersports) tracks warranty both by cost AND by number of incidents. How well this info is gathered and shared within the company varies widely. Typically, you weigh the estimated cost of developing a "fix" with the estimated savings in warranty reduction. That is how you justify using engineering time to fix existing product, rather than creating new stuff that grabs the headlines. I cannot speak specifcally to HD/Buell. This has gotten me thinking that I may waste a few minutes to call Buell CS and tell them that my bearings failed, and I replaced them with non-OEM parts. I can also offer to send them the bearings back, but I will be surprised if they want them, since I am not a dealer. When I was in snowmobile land, anything around a 1% or higher failure rate was considered a big problem. The company was not exactly known for top quality, outside of the 4 stroke engines. Of course, safety related or "walk-home" failures could get attention even at much lower failure rates. Walking home in a blizzard at -20F is no fun. And yes, one of the problems was a bearing failure. A clutch-side, driven shaft bearing, to be specific, for anyone familiar with sleds. | ||
| Skyclad |
I don't know if it would help if those who did the non-OEM replacement would call to report it to Buell. I know it couldn't hurt. Court, do you think it would do any good? I absolutely defer to your experience on this one. | ||
| Court |
It can't hurt to let them know. Buell, I suspect, tracks not only $$ but nominal occurrences and, like most companies, performs a risk analysis. Risk analysis is a discipline that compares reliability (in theory the inverse of the probability of failure) with the cost and severity of the consequences of failure. For example . . . it 3 sets of $40 bearings fail . . . . . IN MOST CASES the consequence is primarily an inconvenience. If the wing on a jet airliner fails, even one, the consequences can be severe. Classical risk analysis identifies, quantifies and assigns probability and then, generally in some sort of matrix, introduces severity of the consequences of failure. It's science, not emotion. In many cases the damage done to remove the bearings makes analysis of little value but it can never hurt to let someone know. Buell gets LOTS if information from owners and acts on it. My primary point above was to dispel the myth that somehow Buell ignores all else in favor of the cheapest source. That's about the opposite of what actually happens. | ||
| Skyclad |
Court, or anybody else for that matter, where could I find the specs for the OEM bearings? It is a curiosity thing for me, being a gearhead and all. Also, to those who have done their own bearing replacement with SFK's or Koyos; have you had any bearing problems since doing the change? I have not seen anything about it, but just wondering. | ||
| Arcticktm |
Skyclad, Look back in this post and do a search in this forum. The bearing specs have been posted numerous times, and cross references to Koyo and SKF replacement bearings. Summary: they are industry standard roller bearings. Rear=6006 size Front=6005 Both are "permanently" sealed on both sides and filled with various types of grease, which is typically noted as a 2RS designation by most bearing mfrs. They are also the C3 tolerance class, which is a slightly looser internal tol than the default. This helps the bearing survive some small deformations due to press fit, temp range, etc without loosing internal clearances. I used SKF as a replacement for my rear bearings, so I did a lot of research on their seal design and grease types (all available on their website). My SKF's use a polyurea thickener grease (GJN is the SKF designation) that is supposed to be good for slightly higher temps than the default fill, though I am NOT saying that heat was an issue. No issues so far, but way too early for that to mean anything (<1000 miles). 6006-2RS C3 GJN was the final designation for what I put in the rear hub. Hopefully I have them in the right order, as I am going from memory (info is all at home, and I am not). | ||
| Skyclad |
Arcticktm, I was looking for the more detailed specs. I know the bearing size. You did provide one bit that I was looking for, the tolerance class. I also believe that they are single seals, but not 100% sure if they have or have not been changed. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Skyclad- here you go: http://www.koyousa.com/KoyoCatalog/ProductDetail.a spx?br=60062RS&c=010-010-020 Metric units, but you can figure it out. | ||
| Jackbequick |
The load contact patch on tapered roller bearings is much higher and they have much better service life than ball bearings. Tapered rollers are pretty common in use on motorcycles and may be the better choice. I can't help but wonder if the ball bearings were chosen for reasons other than how good they are for the application. Like if they were chosen for easier assembly to wheels and/or on the production line and to save some time on servicing (no bearings to re-pack). I just replaced one of the two rear wheel tapered roller bearings on my FXD. Probably because it was not shimmed right about three years or so ago. The other bearing is still in perfect condition and is about 10 years old. I have to play with spacers and shims to set the end play but that only takes a few minutes. If there is enough material on the hubs, the upgrade path for Uly bearings (before that around the world ride) may be to bore the hubs out to create a shoulder for seating a tapered roller race and with enough depth to add an external seal. Doing that would probably also lessen the wear and tear on the wheels from more frequent replacement cycles for the sealed ball bearings. The bearings on my Dyna call for a repacking at 10,000 mile intervals but the first two times I inspected mine they were clean, uncontaminated, and rolling free, so I just forced fresh grease through them and put them back for another year. This year I elected to replace the grease and found one discolored so I replaced it. Jack | ||
| Hughlysses |
If there is enough material on the hubs, the upgrade path for Uly bearings (before that around the world ride) may be to bore the hubs out to create a shoulder for seating a tapered roller race and with enough depth to add an external seal. Doing that would probably also lessen the wear and tear on the wheels from more frequent replacement cycles for the sealed ball bearings. Jack- no doubt rollers will handle much higher loads than ball bearings. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be much excess material in the hub of the Uly wheel. The inner shoulder is very thin (maybe ~1/8"?). It still might be possible to do a retrofit if you were willing to go to enough trouble. You could do something like bore all the way through the wheel, then machine and press in a steel sleeve (with a good application of Locktite Bearing and Sleeve Retainer) with the necessary shoulder dimensions. Not sure if there's enough meat in the diameter of the hub to allow that, but the sleeve wouldn't have to be very thick. You'd also have to manufacture a new spacer. Adjustment of the play/pre-load would be really easy though because of the Uly's axle mounting. If you could find someone with a bent or otherwise unusable rear rim, that'd be a good way to test this out without destroying a good wheel. | ||
| Jackbequick |
I noticed the Uly has a 30mm axle and uses a bearing with a 55mm OD. That is quite a bit bigger than the 1.5" (38.1mm) race and .75" (19.05mm) I.D. on the tapered roller bearings used on most H-D products until recent years. H-D is using 1" axles on many of the newer ones now but I'm nut sure if the bearings are still the same type. Maybe they went to sealed bearings too? So another approach on the Uly might be to down size the bore with a sleeve or something to fit a off the shelf tapered roller with a 30mm I.D. I think that, generally speaking, ball bearings have a greater O.D. to I.D. ratio than tapered rollers so there is probably a bearing out there that would fit in the available space or even less. It has nothing to do with this but I'm a little queer for Timkin tapered roller bearings after some years as a machinist. They put together some sets of bearings to tolerances that are pretty impressive. The races have to be indexed to each other and the installation and preloading is a little tricky. But there are some well maintained WW II and earlier vintage machine tools out there that will still hold nice tolerances with their original ABEC-7 class bearings. Jack | ||
| Hughlysses |
Yea, Timken has a pretty impressive record. Take this application for instance:  Built in 1950, had something like 1,000,000 miles on the original Timken roller bearings (8 axles on the engine and 6 on the tender, plus ~16 on the rods) when it was retired in ~1958. Restored to service in 1980, pitting was found in two of the rod bearings (probably due to being stored outdoors for 20 years). Timken polished those two bearings internally using grinding compounds; eventually developed adapters so that modern bearings could be used to replace the no-longer-available originals. AFAIK the engine ran without bearing problems until it was re-retired in 1994 due to management's decision to stop passenger excursions. I would trust Timken rollers to hold up the rear of a Uly. | ||
| Jackbequick |
The Norfolk & Western Class J, what a wonderful piece of machinery. I needed a good cry so I went here and listened to the sound cuts and read the story of The Last Run of 611 again: http://www.retroweb.com/611lastrun.html Jack | ||
| Skyclad |
I am back on the road. The shop was not able to find any reason for the seals going out on my bearings. They also did not have any in stock, so I said da hell with it, and ran out to get a set of SFK's. So hopefully I should not be having any more problems in this particular area. | ||
| Rahbert |
My rear wheel bearings ate it at 1220 miles. Replacement under warranty is underway, but are ceramic replacements the answer? | ||
| Jwnsc |
Another '08 Uly. Sorry to hear it. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Wow- 1220 miles is about the lowest mileage I've heard. I wonder about the ceramic bearings- seems like they'd be brittle but who knows? They're definitely $$$$. I don't think we've had any reports of failures with aftermarket replacements (Koyo or SKF), have we? | ||
| Jlnance |
are ceramic replacements the answer? We don't really know. They are certainly an expensive option. I've got the Koyo bearings, they have been fine for the last 12k miles. Of course the OEM bearings were fine when I replaced them at 33k miles. The piece we are missing is why my OEM bearings were good after 33k miles and Skyclad's failed twice in 6k miles. That makes good answers difficult to give. | ||
| Bud |
8000 miles, i kown off the problem, had a very close inspection with my last tyre change, i'm very anal with tq and neversees on axels , bike never been washed, several trackdays, put here one's to the max weight ( perhaps over it , friend off mine had a bike problem and he hopped on the pillion , but the bought off us are large blokes, i'm wide he tall ) perhaps this was the killing blow but still it got me by suprice, going 100 mph on the highway, the bearring failed the bike did drive a bid funny, but i blamed the back tyre, and made a mental note to check the bearrings good again when i'm changing the tyre. it feld like a flat tyre when the bearing failed, but than with clunking sounds  pulled here over to the side and inspected the problem..  well spacer gone as well, little dammage to the inside off the wheel, i did not like to wait next to the road in the flaming sun, so i very slowly drove her to a parking place with some shade ( 2 miles down the road ) my mate came to pick me up. put some SKF bearrings in and a new spacer. thing that worries me most is this was in between service miles and between tyre changes.. do i need to check the bearings more often ? i really don't want this to happen when i'm scraping my foor pegs | ||
| Rahbert |
[The piece we are missing is why my OEM bearings were good after 33k miles and Skyclad's failed twice in 6k miles. That makes good answers difficult to give.] My theory is that the belt tension is incorrect. I would not rely on factory literature alone for tension specs; it seems that Buell has gotten these items wrong before with predictable results (oil drain plug for instance). A driveshaft would solve this problem by removing the tension load. My R1100 RT has 115K miles on the original bearings with no issues. } | ||
| Iugradmark |
Have any of the non-OEM replacement bearings failed yet? We have had riders with low mileage and very diligent mechanics that have carefully checked bearings between tire changes and still had failures. This makes me wonder if it is a quality control issue with the OEM bearings. If it is true that nobody has had a failure since swapping to a replacement manufacturer, it may be worth taking the preventative measure given the relative low cost, especially when I hear people on vacation experiencing $450 towing fees. | ||
| Johnboy777 |
"...A driveshaft would solve this problem by removing the tension load. My R1100 RT has 115K miles on the original bearings with no issues." Good Point! BMW's has no driveshaft failure issues, whatsoever. . | ||
| Jlnance |
My theory is that the belt tension is incorrect. I would not rely on factory literature alone for tension specs; It may be the belt tension, but as that is a non-adjustable quantity, there isn't much we can do about that. | ||
| Jlnance |
Have any of the non-OEM replacement bearings failed yet? Not to my knowledge, but our sample size is very small. | ||
| Bross |
Quoted by: Jlnance "It may be the belt tension, but as that is a non-adjustable quantity, there isn't much we can do about that" What about that spring loaded tensioner? That would be my first upgrade, it seems a way better solution than the fixed tension system of the stocker and the Uly's increased suspension travel just aggravates the problem. | ||
| Busykat |
At 6K+ miles, it looks as though my rear wheel bearings have called it quits on my 2006. I dropped me Uly off at Low Country H-D and their tech has diagnosed it as the rear wheel bearings. Unfortunately, they haven't a lot of Buells, and of course much less XB12Xs that come through the service department, so the wheel bearing failure is a new one to them. I did buy the extended service warrantee, so the service writer is calling to find out if warrantee will cover it, (I don’t know why it wouldn’t). The thing that caused me to bring it in to the dealership was the strange noise that was emanating from what I thought was the drive train. At low speeds, I would occasionally hear a popping/crunching kind of a noise. It made this noise the first time in a parking lot; I thought I ran over something and parked the bike and looked around to see if I did. Of course, there was nothing to see on the lot or on the bike. On the way to the dealership, I was driving through my neighborhood at 20 MPH in 2nd gear, steady throttle and it made the noise again. So, have any of your wheel bearings made a noise before they were replaced? | ||
| Spike |
The spring loaded tensioner is a nice fix for a problem that no one has demonstrated to exist yet. So far there hasn't been any data to show that the belt tension is excessive or even variable throughout the range of travel. Aside from that, if it were an issue with belt tension somewhere within the suspension travel it seems like the problem would be more widespread. We have a decent sample size here on badweb of guys riding the Ulysses in all sorts of conditions and we've yet to find a constant with the bearing failures. I might buy that it's a bad batch of parts that are at the limits of the tolerances that cause the belt tension to be excessive on specific bikes, but that sort of thing would show up in a pattern, perhaps on the build date of the bike. Maybe if we could track the bearing failures with the vin and/or build date we could get a better handle on why this is happening. | ||
| Busykat |
In the spring 2008 Fuell magazine, Abe Askenazi, Director of Analysis, Test, and Engineering Process, Buell Motorcycle Company wrote, “Shortly after, when we started working on the Ulysses,® we knew that severe offpavement debris would be the next challenge for the belt. We also discovered that the Ulysses duty cycle yielded a 25 percent increase in maximum belt loading. So we collaborated long and hard with Goodyear on developing the next generation belt to surpass the hard targets created by an extreme debris test against a higher maximum load. As a result, for the 2006 Model Year launch of Ulysses, we were able to deliver the next level of belt technology to the XB platform, retrofittable to the 2004 Model Year XBs (see chart).” https://www.buell.com/en_us/_media/pdfs/owners/Fue ll-2008/Fuell-Spring-2008.pdf Do any of you recon that the 25% increase in maximum belt load may be contributing to the rapid wheel bearing failures? I suspect it does. Wheel bearing failure doesn’t seem to be as rampant on the other XB models as it is on the XB12X. |
