| Author | Message | ||
     Wolfridgerider |
Another avenue may be Harley-Davidson. Don't they own 51% of Buell? 100% I thought it was 98% any who... New Koyo bearings are in hand. | ||
| Arcticktm |
'08's use the same bearings as before. NTN 6006 in the rear, 6005's in the front, made in Taiwan. All the '08 Buell demos (less the Blast) had the same in them at MB5 last weekend, including the 1125R. I do not recall any evidence about European SKF's being somehow better than other locations. I would bet money that the same machines are making them in all locations. Some are making too big a deal about the country the bearing was made in. I really believe the seal design is more relevant, but we will see in time. These are industry standard, off the shelf bearings, and there really should not be too much room for interpretation in the internals. The seal is still individual to the manufacturer. I also do not believe the spacer (side loading of the bearing) has anything to do with this (in my case, anyway). My stock bearings showed no sign of any mechanical loading or wear problems when I tore them apart. Simple water entry and corrosion were at fault. Of course, water+corrosion will lead to grease going away, increased friction, and then heat/failure down the road. If you look at the specs for these 6005/6006 bearings (SKF, Koyo, NTN or anyone), they are no where near the limits for static loading or RPM in our application. I also do not believe we need high temp bearings. The standard grease for all the listed bearings is good to around boiling temp of water, per listed specs. If my bearings ever got that hot (ouch!), then I would not have seen so much water in them, since it would have turned to steam and escaped through the seals. These seals will not hold any significant pressure. | ||
| Jwnsc |
Hugh, as best as my 54 year-old eyes can tell they're NTN 6006 from Taiwan. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Arcticktm (damn! we've got too many "Jims" on this forum!), I don't think anyone every presented any evidence that the country of manufacture influenced the reliability of the bearings, that was just thrown out as a logical possible reason. My bike had ~8300 miles on it, I was doing the third rear tire change (I've done them all and have followed proper procedures). I popped the seals and there was no sign of moisture or corrosion inside the bearings and the lubricant was clean. OTOH the exterior of the outer races were rusty, and there were drops of water behind the bearings in the machined recess in the wheel hub when I got them out. There was about 1/4 cup (!!) of water inside the hub of the wheel when I removed the spacer. The bearings felt noticeably rough when I'd hold the wheel up by the bearings and spin it. It feels as smooth as glass with the new Koyos. I guess the ideal thing to do would be to saw one of the old NTNs in half and examine the balls and races under a microscope. Surely that would give a good idea of what's causing the problem. | ||
| Johnboy777 |
"OTOH the exterior of the outer races were rusty, and there were drops of water behind the bearings in the machined recess in the wheel hub when I got them out. There was about 1/4 cup (!!) of water inside the hub of the wheel when I removed the spacer." Hughlysses, did you drill any holes to keep water from collecting there in the future - or is that something, in your opinion, that we should consider doing?? My outer races are very rusty as well. If other model XB's with differing wheel designs are not having this problem, that would lead me to perhaps look toward the wheel design, rather than the bearings themselves...no? John | ||
| Jlnance |
saw one of the old NTNs in half and examine the balls and races under a microscope. Surely that would give a good idea of what's causing the problem. Well, at that level we know what is causing the problem. The seals fail, grease leaves the bearing and water enters. The bearings rust, and overheat. What we don't know is why, particularly since the other XBs are using this same bearing. My guess would be it's a manufacturing problem. The Uly uses different wheels than the other XBs, so it is plausible that they are being made on a different line or in a different factory. Perhaps something on that line is damaging the bearings when they are installed. | ||
| Johnboy777 |
"My guess would be it's a manufacturing problem. The Uly uses different wheels than the other XBs, so it is plausible that they are being made on a different line or in a different factory. Perhaps something on that line is damaging the bearings when they are installed." I would think just the opposite, to be more probable - that is, the inherent design of the wheel itself. If, for example, its holding water, then there's one possible reason. Logically, if other XB wheel bearings are not failing at our failure rates, then why look at bearings, or for that matter, think that different bearings will help at all ... I guess only time will tell, though. BTW, I'm no bearing or wheel expert, but I did stay at a - oh hell, never mind. . | ||
| Arcticktm |
Hugh - My rr brngs pretty much matched your exact conditions and mileage, except I actually had water come out of the bearings. Now that I think of it, the water came out of the wheel assembly when I placed it flat on the floor, so it could have been water in the hub, I suppose. I took it to a shop for the press out/in, and he said more water did come out when he removed the old bearings. This is after the wheel sat in the garage for 2+ weeks! The OEM rear bearings I took out were a bit rough in action. The brake side had rust colored paste inside, from water/rust/grease mixing. The belt side was not nearly as bad. Of course, they all had corrosion on the outside, since they are just steel bearings exposed to the elements. | ||
| Jwnsc |
If we know for a fact that the OEM wheel bearings aren't sourced from a special Uly-only NTN run, at this point I'm inclined to agree with JohnBoy, that somehow the Uly wheel design is contributing to water/dirt ingress. If that is true, will the replacement bearings fare any better? Are their seals better than NTN's? Disclaimer: I know even less than JohnBoy, because I can't even remember the last time I slept in a Holiday Inn Express, and what's more, none of my previous 11 bikes had a bearing problem. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Jlnance, I suggested that because my bearings (at least on the outer sides) didn't show any trace of water or rust. I should go ahead and pull the inner seals and see if they look any different. I suppose it's possible I've got traces of moisture/rust on the inside side of the bearings. Regarding the water in the hub of my wheel- I just don't see how that much water could get into the center of the wheel during normal riding (i.e.- not submerging the wheel for an extended period during a stream crossing). I've ridden in the rain quite a bit, but there's nothing to "drive" the rain into the center of a wheel spinning at several hundred RPM through a couple of possible infiltration paths (the bearing inner race/axle interface) which is a small, smoothly machined joint. I wonder if it's not something incredibly dumb like the wheel manufacturer (in China) leaving the freshly finished wheels sitting outside prior to shipping them to Buell, allowing rain to accumulate inside? I did coat the recess in the wheel with grease to help get the bearings in, and I think that'd help seal water out. I also put a fresh coat of anti-seize on the axle which should do the same. | ||
| Johnboy777 |
"...like the wheel manufacturer (in China) leaving the freshly finished wheels sitting outside prior to shipping them to Buell, allowing rain to accumulate inside?" Chinese rainwater  ...those bastards! . | ||
| Hughlysses |
Hey, they still burn a lot of coal over there. That stuff is probably acidic as hell- yea, that's it. Chinese acid rain causes the bearing failures...  | ||
| Michael1 |
I think that the bearing is just undersized for the Uly. I know the Uly gets/takes a lot more of a load than any of the XB's or 1125R's out there. And when mine failed it was loaded to the gills as well. I also do plenty of two up trips. I think they have too thin of a cross section and with the smaller balls in there of a 6006, they cannot handle the loading that we do on our bikes. The sad part is... there isn't room in the wheels for a larger cross section bearing. I'll just keep spares on hand and replace them every 20k or 30k miles. | ||
| Johnboy777 |
"...too thin of a cross section and with the smaller balls..." Hmmm... small balls and Chinese rainwater. . | ||
| Hughlysses |
Michael, I'd agree with you that the Uly typically gets loaded down more than any of the other XBs, but that's not necessarily the maximum bearing load. The load on the bearings may be much higher under maximum acceleration, in which case the worst case load is no worse for a Uly than other XBs. If the bearing's adequate to handle that load, the difference in the static load may be insignificant. I haven't sat down and done a back of the envelope estimate, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was true. IF he load on the bearings the problem, it might still be possible to deal with it. Since you can't machine the recess in the wheel deeper, you could mount a slightly wider bearing and let it protrude from the wheel slightly. It'd require that you machine some material off the shoulder on the axle and the boss on the brake rotor side of the swingarm. (Message edited by hughlysses on March 31, 2008) | ||
| Michael1 |
I see what you are getting at, but there isn't a bearing made that is wider in those dimensions. Anything wider doesn't net you anything unless you try and stuff a double row design in there. Plus, no one makes a wider bearing in the 35mm ID and 55mm OD that is an "off-the-shelf" bearing. The issue is this: The thinner the cross section of a bearing the less load it can take. This is due to the diameter of the rolling element. The smaller the element the smaller the "contact" elipse. The smaller the contact elipse, the smaller the max load each rolling element can handle. And when you get down to the nuts and bolts how a bearing actually works, only one rolling element carries the max load in the "load zone." As the rolling element travels into the load zone it's load increases until it reaches the 6 o'clock position (on our wheels) and then the load decreases as it leave the load zone. With the small cross section and low number of rolling elements, there may only be two or at most three rolling elements taking load at any given time. In other words.... WE NEED BIGGER BALLS!!! | ||
| Hughlysses |
I edited my post above (I'm still not convinced the load is the problem), but you answered the question re. wider bearings. I imagine a double row bearing would be more than 2x as wide and there's almost certainly not room to fit that. OK, what about taking the other approach- change the aluminum axle to a smaller diameter steel axle of equivalent strength and use bearings with a smaller I.D., which would allow bigger balls? Anything off-the-shelf that fits that bill? | ||
| Tipsymcstagger |
I'll just keep spares on hand and replace them every 20k or 30k miles. Not that this will have any imminent consequences - I'm sure changing the bearings every 20k or 30k miles will equate to several years - but didn't someone here (or was it on ADV?) once post that you could only change the wheel bearings so many times before causing permanent damage to the Uly wheel hub? Tipsy | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
Well, I pulled the wheel off the bike and the tire is toast. So I'm just going to take it to the dealer and have the bearings pressed in while the tire is getting changed. | ||
| Sekalilgai |
Hey Mark Sorry to hear about your wheel bearing woes. FWIW I had mine changed out while replacing the rear tire right before MBV because they felt a little notchy/draggy (14k miles). Had Koyos from local Applied shop installed and they appeared ok after the trip. Oddly enough, the old bearings felt quite smooth once out of the wheel (as per Hugh's comment) ... there was some monster torque required to loosen the axle (surprise!)...no water evidence though. There was no evidence of rust and a wee bit of grease when I pulled the seals). I might clean, regrease and toss them under the seat as emergency spares.... Ken (Message edited by sekalilgai on April 01, 2008) | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
I was going to attempt the bearings myself but the tire needed replace so I just dropped it off at the local dealer. It should be bout ready to come out of the oven now.... | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
Just got the phone call.... The sleeve inside the wheel that runs between the bearings is toasted...F#@K!! Any ideas on a quick fix? | ||
| Hughlysses |
Mark, I don't blame you for taking it to the dealer; changing the bearings wasn't an easy job. (Yea, and my new Harbor Freight tire changer didn't exactly make my rear tire change a piece of cake either....). I just popped the backside seals on both original bearings and there was no water or rust there either. The grease wasn't quite as pristine looking (the blue looked a little grayish) but I don't think that was a problem. I do notice one of the bearings has the slightest hint of roughness when I turn it while the other one feels just like the new Koyos. Ken, I've been thinking about what you said- keeping the old ones as spares, but it might be better to just order another set of Koyos for ~$35 and keep them on hand. I'd hate to have to change a bearing on the road and then come back a few days later and replace it with a new one. I still have a feeling (despite any true evidence) that the Koyos are going to solve the problem permanently, or at least for a reasonable amount of mileage. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Mark, that sucks. Are you still under warranty? If you don't want to wait on the factory part, I'd imagine a machine shop could whip out a replacement in short order. | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
Are you still under warranty? Yep... If you don't want to wait on the factory part Never do, but may need to. When I talked to the service tech he thought it would be a easy fix. Make a Depot run and find something that will work. Just a hassle I didn't want to deal with. | ||
| Hughlysses |
BTW, according to the Applied catalog, the dynamic load rating on the Koyos is 1855.00 lbf. According to the catalog, that is the maximum constant radial load that one of the bearings can endure for a life of 1,000,000 revolutions. Since we've got two of them, that means the rear wheel could be subjected to a constant load of 3710 lbs for a million revolutions without causing a bearing problem. I don't think the Uly is overloading the rear bearings and therefore that's not the reason for the failures. | ||
| Tipsymcstagger |
Just a FYI...I've had good luck with "All Balls" bearings in the past (GoAllBalls.com). Their website doesn't list Buell in the fitment lookup, but you can search by dimension. When I entered 30mm ID x 55mm OD x 13mm W I came up with "Tucker Rocky 41-6006" as a distributer. When I Googled that, I came up with this result at $6.59 a piece. Tipsy | ||
| Sekalilgai |
Hey Hugh, yeah for $35 it may not be so smart. I'm a diehard packrat, I keep old plugs so that I can compare them with the next set when replacement time comes around. Yeah weird. Maybe these old NTNs will be a grittiness baseline ....I should really spend more time riding .... | ||
| Chadhargis |
My source for bearings says the Koyos are "high end" bearings and can save me a buck over the internet cost, so it's most likely not work ordering a big lot of them to save a buck each. | ||
| Jb2607 |
I went ahead and purchased the Koyos for my 08 ULY at 16.80 each. Thanks Johnboy for the info. My boyscout days told me to be "prepared". |
