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Hughlysses
| | Posted on Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 05:50 pm: | 
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I just did my first oil change on the Uly (Just out of warranty). After 4900 miles I inspected the drain plug magnet. No chunks of metal but a small amount of metallic colored paste was found on the magnet. I thought that was okay considering the mileage. Is this common?
Carlos,
Yea, that's what I've seen on mine and it seems to be pretty common from what I've read here. |
Cycletlh
| | Posted on Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 07:51 pm: |
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Let the flaming begin!
For most of us, using anything more than a generic oil that meets the manufacturers specifications/certifications is a waste of money. When was the last time you heard of an oil related failure? Dino oil changed regularly will probably give most of us over 100,000 miles of service.
My dad used 30 wt car oil as premix in the 60's and 70's. Plugs would foul, but nothing ever blew up. Todays oils are far superior.
And yes, I run Mobil1 15-50 synthetic in all of our motorcycles. Run whatever makes you happy and be confident that it is giving your favorite ride more than enough protection. |
M2nc
| | Posted on Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 10:12 pm: |
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I read something interesting in the Service Manual last night during the oil change. I always use HD 20W-50 oil but that is not always the best weight oil for the motor according to the manual. Here is what it said.
10W-40 - Below 40°F
20W-50 - Below 60°F
SAE50 "Regular" - Below 80°F
SAE60 "Heavy Duty" - Above 80°F
If you look at what head temperatures the fan runs (360°F to 428°F) the thicker oil is needed according to the factory. How many of you use straight weight oil in your bike during the summer? |
Etennuly
| | Posted on Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 10:29 pm: |
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Carlos,
I follow that chart for my oil changes and have zero usage or problems. I tried the 20-50 in hot weather and it was all gone in 600 miles or so. I have 50 in it now and will be changing to 20-50 with my next change for winter.
I have found my engine to run quieter than many of those that I have been around that I know have synthetic in them.
I believe in the benefits of synthetics, I run Mobil 1 in all of my other vehicles once they are broken in. |
Gotj
| | Posted on Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 11:06 pm: |
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Just to complete M2nc's info, the manual says those temps are the "lowest ambient temperature".
That means if you live in an area where the temperature doesn't drop below 60 degrees for long periods of time, you could switch to a 50 weight oil or if not below 80 degrees, a 60 weight oil. Just check your weather records to see how many days you go with the lowest temperature not falling below either 60 or 80 degrees.
Here is a link for average monthly temperatures to give you a guide:
www.weatherbase.com
For my area, Knoxville, TN, the monthly average low temps for for June, July, August and September are 64, 68, 67, and 61 degrees respectively (the only months with averages above 60). The average highs for those same months are 85, 88, 87, and 82 degrees. I'm comfortable with the 20W-50 because I get the quick lubrication of a 20 weight oil on the days cooler than 60 degrees plus the protection of a 50 weight oils after warming up. I'm not sure what advantage I would get with a single weight oil. YMMV |
Etennuly
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 12:04 am: |
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George,
That is truly pertinent low temperature information that is relevant to the issue but, I don't often get started at five am on what will ultimately be a ninety five degree day for all but three hours. If there is a dip in temperatures it is easy to compensate by letting the bike warm up a little longer before taking off.
I think it is more important to consider when and how you will be riding regarding the temperatures. |
Chas1969
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 12:34 am: |
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Yes one can warm the bike up longer on a cold day, as I would with my old VW Bug. The idea to reduce wear.
But 5w oils have an advantage especially in a low pressure lube system as the Harley/Buell ... it will prime itself and flow much faster. Hense less wear and more lube. The 'W' is at cold viscosity and has no bearing at hot temps, only at start-up. How can 5w oil which is light at cold temps be bad, the engine when warm is 185-220 degrees and xW-40/50 is still 40-50 weight at what most the time is at engine running temp.
I've ridden Hondas, and BMW's and the manuals all had detailed oil charts for what temps but Buell has "Lowest ambient temp" as the only indication and some self promotion "ASAP use HD oil" ... Why would I use good quality non-Harley oil like Rotella or Rotella synth because if a motorcycle company self promotes only their oils then I bet it is crap becuase that is how they are treating the owners.
IMHO
Chas
(Message edited by chas1969 on October 22, 2007) |
M2nc
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 12:55 am: |
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185°F-220°F engine temperatures are running temps for water cooled motors. According to the Service Manual the exhaust fan does not come on until head temperatures reach 360°F. My fan runs all the time during the summer so that tells me that the engine runs at temperatures much higher than the water cooled cars I use 10W-40 oil in. A 5w Oil to me is too thin for those temperatures.
As for other oils, the manual calls for motor oil certified for Diesel engines. So if you feel that HD oil is not the best, should you be using oil that is certified for air-cooled V-twin (Advance Auto Parts sells one), or diesel engines with CF-4, instead of a run of the mill motor oil? |
Jmhinkle
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 05:48 am: |
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My choice of Rotella Syn is because it has been a proven performer in all types of motorcycles and ATV's repeatedly and I've used it in every one I have owned along with my Diesel cars and trucks over the years. The other reason is two fold, but it boils down to 20w-50 not performing properly in the engine. I live in a High desert climate which means cold at night and hot in the day. 40-50 degree swings are not uncommon. The 20W was too thick for starting when cold unless I like the sound of metal on metal grinding in the cold. In the heat of the day, 50wt is too thick to flow as well as 40 wt and does not release the heat required to properly cool and lubricate the engine. The 5w-40 Rotella will meet or beat the demands of the 20w-50 with bonus side effects especially in an aircooled design. Those of you thinking you need 50wt oil because of the heat where you live might find it interesting that many of the AZ riders find 40wt to perform better for the heat release reasons I gave. Do you have higher temps than them?
Carlos,
I'm not trying to sound like a dick here, but do you understand how oil weights work? What the w in them means? Your statements of a 5w at 360 degrees is extremely wrong. That is the same as saying you are currently running a 20wt oil in your bike. Do you believe that? Lets just forget about trying to explain that portion for now and let's look at it this way...You say your fan runs all the time in the summer. That means your temp probe is over the 360 and not cooling right? There is a shut off point to that probe. If your oil cooled and lubricated effectively (not just properly) it would cycle the fan on and off. So, for shits and grins, we will say that a 40wt and 50wt meet all the temp and load requirements of the Buell motor. Which one will flow better at 360 degrees? The thinner 40 or thicker 50wt? Will more flow through the engine and oil cooler lead to better or worse cooling effects? Do you see what I'm getting at? During the heat of the summer(90-100 here), my fan only runs at highway speeds and actually cycles on and off like you would(should) expect it to around town. Why doesn't yours? The Buell oil pumping and cooling system is pretty small so helping it with an oil than can flow better at a given temp and release more heat because of the better flow is only a good thing. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 05:51 am: |
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Chas, you have the theory right, but in practice there is still some voodoo in there.
My 9sx will consume 5w50 on a hot summer day at a rate that borders on alarming. On that same hot summer day, it will consume 20w50 at a rate that is decent for an air cooled motor.
There is more to what that low number means then just cold weather, at least in our engines. |
Jmhinkle
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 06:10 am: |
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Reep,
Are you sure its consumption and not blowby of excess? Where on the dipstick did you fill too? Would it continually consume until you had knocking? |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 09:14 am: |
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Yup... it would drink it down well past the bottom mark, and did it on several occasions. I remember one 400 or so mile ride (hot day, hard ride) where I went from the top mark to the bottom mark in one day.
All my procedures stayed the same, but I switched from the Castrol 5w50 to Castrol 20w50 (both full synthetic), and I now fill it up to the top dipstick and it goes 1000 or 2000 miles before getting to the bottom mark (even on hot days, hard rides). |
Etennuly
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 09:51 am: |
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I had the same problem with 20-50 in my City-X. It went totally away, not into the air box, in 600 miles. And when the check engine light came on I was shocked that the oil level had dropped that far. It was a 85F weekend of riding, the bike had about 4000 miles on it. It didn't matter that it had been filled to the top marks on the stick.
I shut it down immediately when the light came on and coasted to my driveway. It took over a full quart to bring it up to the bottom of the stick.
I went back to the book and have never had a problem since. The level is always at the next to the last mark on the Uly and never has to be topped off between changes.
The other reason I run it that way, is how much quieter my engine is compared to the engines that I have been around with the syn oils in them. I doesn't matter how slippery the oil is if the internal parts are crashing into each other there is wear happening. |
Jmhinkle
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 09:56 am: |
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Top mark to bottom mark is pure blow-by. Anything over 3x's is overfilled and is going out the breather. That's why you still see it go from top to bottom on the 20w-50 as well. Try filling it to 3 x's and seeing how long until it starts to knock If you are truly consuming that much oil in that short of a period it has nothing to do with brand, type, or weight. That is an engine problem. |
Jmhinkle
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 10:00 am: |
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"I had the same problem with 20-50 in my City-X"
"I went back to the book and have never had a problem since"
20-50 is the book. What are you trying to say? Are you running straight weight instead? According to your post above, you are, but that isn't xactly by the book.
If you think your engine is more quiet starting on straight 50wt than mine is on 5w I find that amazing. You realize the extent of dry running your engine is doing starting on 50wt? Do you not consider all that thrashing and grinding on startup noise? I can't believe you haven't lost an oil pump yet.
(Message edited by jmhinkle on October 22, 2007) |
Gotj
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 01:38 pm: |
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I don't understand what head temps and high ambient, e.g., 95 degrees, temps have to do with the manual's oil recommendations. The manual's table contains recommendations based on the LOW temps which has to do with startup wear and ease of starting. A 20W-50 will provide 50 weight protection at the upper temps.
I DO understand that old saw about topics that should not be brought up at a party: religion, politics, and OIL! |
Lorazepam
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 03:43 pm: |
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I love a good oil thread. |
Etennuly
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 05:48 pm: |
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I run the straight 50W when start up temps between 60F and 80F. That has still been true for me as I have not started my bike in the mornings when it is below 60F. My next oil change will be to 20-50W soon though.
What I said was that when I tried running 20-50 in hot weather(above 85F) in my City-X the oil disappeared in 600 miles. Not just to the lower marks on the stick, as in gone until the low oil light came on.
THEN I went by the book on oil weights based on ambient temperatures when I start and run my bike.
If it is 45F at 5:00 am and I get my bike out of my shed and park it in the sun when the temperatures have risen to 60F by 10:00 am and I allow a complete warm up before riding, I don't see it as an issue. The oil pressure light goes out as quickly as it does on the other days that I start the bike and let it idle. It doesn't turn over any harder.
If you don't tell the oil it was fifteen degrees cooler five hours ago, and the machine that it is in is allowed to come up to the ambient temperature by start up time, it won't know. So please don't tell my oil or it will be pissed at me and I just couldn't take that. I'd have to change it now rather than later disposing of partially used oil causing a waste of natural resources and I don't want Al Gore on my ass because I don't have the ambition to take all of the blame for global warming.
I'm not saying that you are doing it wrong either, as it is obvious that everyone has a different way of doing everything. That is why there are so many brands of everything jumping up with banners and specifications screaming "buy me, I'm better".
Look at toilet paper. So many brands promising this or that. What happens when you run out? Used to be a Sears catalog was in the outhouse. Maybe a paper towel to the rescue.....uh-oh what brand there? Loyalty says you would have the same brand as the toilet paper, but what if they don't make the kind you like. Just wipe your ass, wash your hands and get on with life.....just don't tell anybody what you did that works for you, even if they go on this forum and ask what if this happened to you.  |
Az_rider
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 07:39 pm: |
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It is not only start up temperatures to be concerned about; this from the Uly owner's manual:
Winter Lubrication
In colder climates, the engine oil should be changed often. If motorcycle is used frequently for short trips, less than 15 miles 24 kilometers , in ambient temperatures below 60° F 16° C , oil change intervals should be reduced to 1500 miles 2400 kilometers .
The further below freezing the temperature drops, the shorter the oil change interval should be.
60° F is 'colder climates'? (Well I think so  )
Since much of the country is seeing temps below 60°, do people change oil at 1500 miles (or less)? |
Teeps
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 08:12 pm: |
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Lorazepam Posted
I love a good oil thread.
Me Too... So
I'll add my 2cents here, too
I have been using Rotella 5/40 (approx 5k miles)since Jmhinkle proclaimed that his Uly's fan ran less. I can report that on my bike no such change has been noted. Fan operation remains, as it has been for the last 9k miles.
The most noticeable difference between Rotella and the others (Mobil 1 V-Twin, Valvoline VR1 20/50 & straight 50) I've had in my Uly, is cold starting. The engine seems to spring to life quicker and has a more stable idle.
And add after 200 miles of freeway yesterday at 75mph + speeds, my Uly used no oil. So there.
I'm using Formula + (by HD) in the primary.
(Message edited by teeps on October 23, 2007) |
Iugradmark
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 08:38 pm: |
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Teeps,
What are you using in the primary? I wouldn't think the 5w40 would be good in there especially during warmer periods. |
Etennuly
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 08:45 pm: |
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Az,
In winter the actual problem is moisture. Metals seems to attract it when it is cold and humid. Some people have reported having enough show up to make a gunky yellow/brown foamy film in the oil tank.
If the engine is run for short trips, and not completely warmed up to the point that it will boil off this moisture, it will need more frequent changes.
I run Rotella in my diesel dump truck and Mobil 1 in my diesel tractor, SUV, jeep, cars, generators, dirt bikes, lawn tractor, and other small equipment. I only run the HD cheese whiz in my Buells.
I really prefer a JCPenney catalog to a Sears(my mom worked there for a long time). |
M2nc
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 03:42 am: |
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I love a good oil thread.
Yep.
It is interesting to me that the factory recommends a straight weight in hotter temperatures. I have always seen single-grade motor oils as old school. Multi-grade oils were an advancement to motor oil and most car manufactures recommend the multi-grade oil. Here is the difference between a Ford and the Lump in the Buell. Air Cooled motors reach temperatures that would cause warped heads and coolant leaks on a water cooled motor. Stepping outside of the internet chat arena and researching Multi-grade oils I think gave me the answer. Viscosity of oils change as the temperature chances. The SAE standard is set up at water's boiling point or 100°C/212°F at 1 atmosphere. The higher the weight, the higher the viscosity rating of the oil and the better it protects the motor at higher temperatures since all oils break down with heat. On multi-grade oils polymers are added to give the motor oil the viscosity of a lighter oil at colder temperatures, but still has the viscosity of the straight weight oil at higher temperatures. All this most of you already know but here is the kicker. Those polymers that give the low viscosity break down in higher temperatures and produce film on the motor components commonly referred to as Carbon Build up. That to me is the answer. The Muli-grade oil is better for cold start ups (Below 60°F) but not better for a motor that runs above 300°F. Synthetic Oils do not have these additives, they only rate like multi-grade motor oils because they have the same viscosity range. |
Jmhinkle
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 05:13 am: |
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Vern,
What you were saying about why you use the weight makes more sense to me now. Thanks for clarifying. Also, you mentioned that gunk buildup from moisture. I had that problem with 20w-50 oils as well. My short rides probably didn't get it warmed up good enough, but at the same time my fan would run when cold or when I shut the bike off after a 5 mile ride home. Nothing seemed to make sense to me on the higher weight oils. I haven't had the gunk on Rotella, probably because it does warm up quicker being of the lighter weight to start, and my fan rarely runs in the cold weather on it at all and usually only when shutting it off. When I shut the bike off in the mornings after riding home from work it doesn't come on at all. One last series of questions, you say you go by the book, does that include using only HD brand oil as well? Also, the book mentions that if "HD" oil is not available use a good Diesel oil. How do you feel about that and why do you think it says that?
AZ,
I fall in to that category on the extreme side. 5 miles back and forth to work. It will be 36 when I leave work this morning and 67 when I return tonight. I have no set change schedule yet. I changed at 100, 500, 1200, 2000, 4200, and unexpectedly at 5500. Been lots of experimenting on my part trying to find an oil that performed correctly for me. Now that I have been so happy I only plan on changing Spring and Fall unless mileage dictates otherwise.
Oil posts always turn out this way. Someone starts it off with good intentions, like AZ did with his UOA. It's when the challenges come as to why someone would step out of the guidelines of the book and eventually it leads to two things. 1) If you aren't using the most expensive designer oil made you are an idiot, or 2) If you don't use the exact oil stated in your manual you are an idiot. It never turns out good and we all go off angry about it until a new post comes along and we argue the same points again. Gotj was absolutely correct in stating you never discuss Religion, Politics or Oil in a public setting. There is no happy ground.
I will finish by saying that "I" have had quite remarkable results on Rotella T Synthetic, but do not expect anyone else to even try it. It works perfectly for what I need an oil to do in this design of an engine. I expect no one to have the exact same demands of an oil as I do. What you use is your choice for your reasons and be happy with it. I'm sorry for getting crabby with you guys about it if I did. |
Treadmarks
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 07:26 am: |
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Man, I love this thread. It is one of the best bike specific oil threads that I have followed.
For what it's worth, here in the hell hot republic of miami traffic I have been searching high and low for a better oil. From amsoil 20w50 to mobil 1 v-twin and 15w50 then syntec 20w50. Not much difference in fan cycles and heat is still an issue once stopped in traffic. I did actually try some mobil 1 5w20 when I was flushing from dino to syn as I had some and curiosity got the best of me so I took it for a warm up ride in traffic. Fan never came on. Engine felt way cooler. I left it in for a week and did notice a considerable difference in traffic temps, reduced warm up times and the motor would wind up considerably quicker, both hot and cold. My only observed drawback was more valvetrain noise, but they are pretty noisy to start with. It did use oil a little quicker, but not by much.
So, I think there is something to be said about the 5w part and I will be giving the rotella t syn 5w40 a shot, just to see how it goes. |
Etennuly
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 06:55 pm: |
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Joel,
Yes, I use oil from HD only in my Buells. It is because of previous heated oil threads that I call it HD Cheese Whiz. Well, that and I accidentally picked up a quart of 60W in the winter one time and it was as thick as cheese whiz.
I like running what the manufacturer recommends, at least during warranty and break in periods, because if there were an oil related failure and they recommended it, they eat it. It is also a good time to "test" their recommendations before running off to do some brand loyal home remedy of a problem that hasn't happened.
I like that so many people are concerned with longevity in a world where few actually run something long enough to wear it out(unless they beat the crap out of it).
I have a truck repair shop and sell Rotella and other brands to fleet owners for their trucks. In the real world leased or short term fleet owners base their choice strictly on price. All they care about is that it passes some minimum testing and that it is cheap.
Long term fleets like to use name brand oils usually because if they are large enough to get the oil manufacturers attention, they can have a fleet specific warranty deal with those oil companies. Record keeping is more important than the work at that point.
I have had trucks in my shop that run Rotella oil that have had over 400,000 miles with no oil related issues. I have also had trucks in that run the Walmart Tech stuff with 300,000 + miles and the only oil issues were a couple of leaking gaskets. All of that means nothing as the truck with the Rotella likely has an owner that cared more to replace a leaky gasket when it happens.
IMHO, really, it isn't so much a matter of what brand you run, it is how you take care of your equipment. But, what ever brand you do run, first common sense is in play, then follow its manufacturers instructions for the product you are putting in your specific vehicle.
All of that leads me to a question. Those of you running Rotella T or syn, or Mobil 1, or Castrol syn, or Amsoil, do they have specific instructions for running their oils in a '06 Buell Ulysses? I don't mean a generic "hear is your V Twin oil". Do they even list it? My point here is they tell me to put Rotella T in a truck for 10,000 miles. Is that the rule that should carry over to a bike?
Most V-Twin manufacturers recommend different things. Is the oil change mileage rule and brand the same for HD's, Tubers, Blasts, XB's, and now the 1125r? I've been curious about that. How would that relate to V-Twins from across the ponds? |
Etennuly
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 05:31 pm: |
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Joel,
I forgot about the "how you use it" factor. It seems to me that you found what is the right oil for your use based on; 1.thinner oils do start easier and 2. you have found that it doesn't retain water as the dino oils have for you. That five mile trip each way probably isn't enough to generate the heat needed for long enough to boil off water that is accumulating.
If I rode that same scenario I would likely be looking at the Rotella or the Rotella syn too. When I start my Uly the shortest trip I'm going to make is 16 miles, and more likely 25. When I ride on weekends I seldom ride less than 300 miles a day. That doesn't allow for much moisture to accumulate in my oil. Since the head temperatures are over 300 degrees for hours at a time it allows for a pretty complete boil off. |
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