| Author | Message | ||
     Electraglider_1997 |
Anybody got a good argument that I shouldn't use Shell Rotella Synthetic 5w-40 for my next oil change? This site thinks it's the shizzle. http://www.motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Consumables.h tml#Oil I hate paying more for oil than I have to and the other day a WalMart I noticed that Mobil 1 15W50 Syn was $24 for a 5 quart container. I can live with that but Rotella 5W40 Syn is under $20 but that may only be for a gallon. Anybody have any experience with it? | ||
| Jmhinkle |
I'm using it now and so are some people in AZ and the motorcycle runs way better on it. 20w-50 is too heavy for the bike. | ||
| Adrian_8 |
I would not use 5w40 in the air cooled motor except in colder climates....I have been using Mobil 1 15/50 in my bikes. On a trip of 6-7K miles I am thinking about using 20/50 Mobil 1..If you get caught in a traffic jam in very high heat or jamming down the road at 75mph for hours on end I feel like your protection would not very good with 5W40... and that is my opinion. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Jmhinkle, What differences have you noticed? Does the fan run more or less or same? MPG? | ||
| Roadrailer |
I'm using it now and so are some people in AZ and the motorcycle runs way better on it. 20w-50 is too heavy for the bike. Define "way better." Smoother? Faster? Cooler? And why do you say 20w50 is "too heavy?" Any data to back that up? (Message edited by roadrailer on May 11, 2007) | ||
| Johnnylunchbox |
If you read this section http://www.motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html he mentions that 5W40 should not be used in HD engines. Although used oil analyses show that 5W40 seems to be OK. | ||
| Hughlysses |
The main reason I can think of not to run it is the viscosity range may not meet the manufacturer's recommendations for your climate. Anyone know the recommended viscosities off the top of their heads? I've run Shell Rotella Synthetic 5w-40 in my water-cooled 1983 Honda VT500FT Ascot (500cc V-twin) for ~4 years and it's been great in that. The last time I bought a gallon, it was ~$13 at Wally World. It's recommended on several motorcycle sites for use in Japanese water cooled bikes; here's one with an excellent discussion of oils for motorcycles: http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Consumables.html# Oil Joel- have you had Used Oil Analyses (UOAs) done on your oil to prove it's holding up in the application? IIRC you have said your bike seems to run cooler with this oil, and your feeling is that the lower viscosity allows higher flow and therefore better cooling? I can see some validity to that argument. | ||
| Thunderbox |
If you use 5w40 or even the Mobile 0w40 the only real difference you should notice is when it is started cold. It will idle better cold with a lower vis oil and may make more noise. Once it gets warm there really isn't that much difference between a 50 and a 40. Both will do a good job. Lubrication will be better when cold with the 0w40 or the 5w40 than with a 20w50 there is no doubt about that. Depends on your climate I guess. If it's cold when you go to work maybe the lower vis oils will be better. You will get better mileage with the lower vis for sure. How much, give it a try. | ||
| Jmhinkle |
Hughlysses, When I switched I promised to get a UOA for you guys. It is not time yet though. I will when it is time as promised. Roadrailer, Smoother, quieter, cooler. Living in a high desert climate It can be 90 when I go to work in the evening and 45 when I get out of a morning. The bike was always hard starting from day 1 on 20w-50 no matter the temp and sounded rough. Through the winter months it was unbearable. The bike cranks right over now and doesn't have all that racket in the engine when cold. When hot, the fan only comes on for sustained high speed runs (I was discussing this offline with someone that the fan seems to be programmed to come on at highway speed to help direct airflow or something) and as soon as I get back to a normal 35-55mph pace it shuts off. In stop and go it will still run if needed, but will shut off shortly after resuming a decent pace. I also no longer have the white goop in my reservoir like I did with 20w-50. On 3 different 50wts (HD dino, HD syn, and Amsoil MCV, the fan would come on within 5-10 miles of leaving the house and not shut off until the bike did. I have used the Rotella Syn in every Motorcycle and ATV I have owned along with my diesel trucks and cars and have been overly impressed with it's abilities. It is my personal opinion based on everything I have read and experienced that a good diesel rated 40wt will survive any requirement of a 50wt, but allows for better temp regulation through more volume and less pressure. | ||
| Teeps |
On Jmhinkle's suggestion, I switched to Rotella 5/40. Starting ease and cold idle speed/smoothness is improved. The engine might even be a tad quieter,(except for pining  ) however, I do recognize that placebo is powerful medicine. I've put several hundred miles since the change and the engine has not consumed any oil, so far. | ||
| Mesa_cityx |
I am running Mobil Delvac 1 5w40 in my city x now. I did a uoa with 2500 miles on the oil and Blackstone labs gave me a big thumbs up, the oil was holding up just fine. I owned a BMW Airhead for 16 years and ran 15w40 for most of that time, no problems at all. The BMW would often exceed 300 deg. on a summer day with 20w50 castrol. Switching to 15w40 gave me a 25 deg drop in oil temp under the same conditions. My fan also runs only on the highway. The post saying 5w40 should not be run in Harley engines is missing one fact; motorcycleinfo says that diesel oils should not be run in engines that share oil with the transmission and clutch because of friction modifiers in the oil and shearing in the transmission. ( bit of a runon sentence there.. subtract 5 points) | ||
| Jmhinkle |
The part that I read, and the way I always understood it, is that Diesel oils are good for motorcycles with wet clutches because they don't have friction modifiers and handle the sheering better. Car oils generally have the friction modifiers to get the energy conservation rating that diesel oil doesn't get and that can cause the clutches to slip. Taken from the diesel section; "The latest commercial certification is CI-4 Plus, which includes extra protection for high temperature high revving motors. CI-4 Plus differs from CI-4 with higher detergent requirements and better sheer stability. The shear stability is exactly what motorcycles need due to running the engine oil through the transmission." Since our Buell does not share with the tranny, I considered using good quality of 10w-40 car oil, but decided against it due to the sheer stability. Someone, I think Chad, mentioned Redline 10w-40 car oil and it looks like it would also be a good product for a Buell engine. Price alone on Redline products around me rule them out though. http://www.redlineoil.com/whitePaper/motoroils.pdf | ||
| Javadog |
Since it has its own oil supply , what are you and the rest of you oil ex-spurts putting in the tranny? I was recommended to put 20W50 synthetic auto engine oil in there and haven't noticed much of a difference except it seems that gear changes are a little smoother. (Message edited by javadog on May 11, 2007) | ||
| Cavi |
there is a rotella semi syn that is like 15-50 also from wallyworld, I have used it in all my bikes forever, just not yet in this one. | ||
| Blake |
Buell's Specifications for Engine Oil Viscosity versus Ambient Temperatures Diesel rated oils are fine. The friction modifiers are in the automotive "Energy Saving" oils; no motor oil with an SAE viscosity grade greater than 30 qualifies for that category and thus is not likely to include the clutch killing friction modifiers. I'd avoid using a grade 40 oil in the Summertime. Viscosity matters. Lower viscosity will let the engine run smoother and freer with less friction, but the lubricating film will be thinner, especially at higher ambient and operating temperatures. At some point if the viscosity is too low, some engine components will suffer significant metal to metal contact, which is not a good thing. | ||
| Mesa_cityx |
People whose livliehoods depend on very expensive engines running and running use 15w40 or 5w40 oils. Use whatever you like, I'm using this stuff. | ||
| Az_rider |
I have been using diesel rated oil in my Buell for the last 12,000 miles. First Delo 15w40, then Rotella 15w40 during the hot summer months in Arizona. I posted my used oil analysis in the Knowledge Vault. During the winter, I ran a blend of Rotella 5w40 and 15w40, results also posted in Knowledge Vault. Wear metals looked good, the oil stayed in grade (2500 mile intervals), still had a lot of additives left, and oil temps dropped 10-15 degrees in the sump. I prefer the dino 15w40 over the synth 5w40 simply because I choose to use 2500 mile oil change intervals, and don't want to pay extra $$$ for a synth. I know- not very scientific. As I see more used oil analysis for the 5w40 oils, I may change my mind. | ||
| Hughlysses |
People whose livliehoods depend on very expensive engines running and running use 15w40 or 5w40 oils. Use whatever you like, I'm using this stuff. I don't think anyone here is arguing that these are not good (actually excellent) oils, it's just that the available viscosities which are intended for heavy duty diesel engines may not be appropriate for our roller bearing, air cooled engines. (Message edited by hughlysses on May 13, 2007) | ||
| Adrian_8 |
Manufacturers pay many qualified engineers to test their engines and transmissions under varied conditions and determine what oils are the best for them..I usually do as I am told...even at home..most of the time. I know guys that put more stock in what his lunch mate says than the OM book..Maybe Goober knows best. | ||
| Jcbikes |
I have been using Shell Rottela T 15w40 in the xb12 for over 15,000 miles and love it. change oil every 1,500 miles and it is silky smooth and nothing ever on the magnet. I use a 80w90 gear oil in the transmission though. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Manufacturers pay many qualified engineers to test their engines and transmissions under varied conditions and determine what oils are the best for them..I usually do as I am told...even at home..most of the time. I know guys that put more stock in what his lunch mate says than the OM book..Maybe Goober knows best. I tend to agree with what you're saying, but HD's credibility isn't so good. They've made it a practice to market their own HD-branded oils and strongly suggest (but not actually require) that you use only these oils in Harley or Buell motorcycles. Synthetic oil was sure to cause "bearing skate" until HD started marketing their own synthetic oil. They'd have a lot more credibility if they recommended a widely recognized oil specification and THEN note that they sell very good oils that meet these specs. | ||
| Adrian_8 |
I do not use HD branded oil but I do use the recommended viscosities..I was using Dino 20-50 RevTech in my Superglide in high heat..got stuck in traffic and lunched a rod thrust bearing... "maybe" if I had been using a synthetic this might not have happened. Maybe...maybe not..but the synthetic 20/50 would have given me a little more margin in such adverse conditions. I now use Mobil 1..so far so good. | ||
| Royintulsa |
I am totally ignorant on oils, and depend on the dealer for oil changes. My question is, does the transmission require a different oil than the crankcase oil? Dealer says to use Syn 3 for everything. What say you experts in oil? | ||
| Jlnance |
does the transmission require a different oil than the crankcase oil? It does on the Uly, and perhaps the other 06 and later bikes with the helical cut gears. Before that, engine oil was used in both the engine and the transmission. | ||
| Cavi |
deffinitly use a tranny oil for the tranny, either a motorcycle tranny oil or if really necessary either a automotive tranny oil or even a automotive oil that is not, and I repeat not Energy conserving, the energy conserving ones have special lubes that will goof up your clutch plates. keep in mind you do not need to change the tranny oil as often so use a trany specific oil, it is worth the money. | ||
| Jlnance |
It is somewhat disconcerting that the chart of oil viscosities (linked by Blake) contains a column for the lowest allowable ambient temperature, but no information about the highest. | ||
| Hughlysses |
It is somewhat disconcerting that the chart of oil viscosities (linked by Blake) contains a column for the lowest allowable ambient temperature, but no information about the highest. Good point, Jim. For all the cars I've ever owned, the owner's manual shows a recommended temperature range for several recommended viscosities. As far as you can tell from the Uly's owner's manual, 10W-40 is just as suitable for 110 deg. F operation as is straight 60W. | ||
| Adrian_8 |
Big Harleys have three oil cavities...engine, transmission, and clutch/primary...this way they can use a specific type of oil for each..Harley now says you can use SYN 3 in all three but many guys are going back to the 70/90 gear lube in the tranny...I like this system because you do not get transmission grindings and clutch scuffing stuff mixed into the engine oil...The Buell does not mix engine oil with the transmission/clutch/primary chain...to me a good thing. People say these are antiques.. but it makes good sense to me. | ||
| Strokizator |
"It is somewhat disconcerting that the chart of oil viscosities (linked by Blake) contains a column for the lowest allowable ambient temperature, but no information about the highest." I believe this is because most engine wear occurs at cold start-up and the sooner you get oil flowing, the better. | ||
| Blake |
Jlance, Your statement concerning transmission lubricant may be inaccurate depending on the model year in question. Please review and correct. I have a dentist appointment to have a loose filling replaced, so I don't have time at the moment to do the required research. Prior to the release of Syn-3 and the new transmissions, I'm pretty sure that Buell recommended a special tranny lube, namely Sport Trans. Now they allow either Syn-3, which is an engine lube, or the Formula+ a special tranny lube which also provides an extended 10,000 mile drain interval. I'm not for sure on when they first allowed the use of Syn-3 in the tranny. I think it was as soon as Syn-3 hit the market, which was prior to the implementation of the new helical cut tranny gears. Would you please check on this? I may be confused too.  | ||
| Jlnance |
Thanks for the heads up Blake. I can't find a definitive source. The 06 owners manual calls for Formula+. It makes no mention of Syn3, but I don't know if that means don't use it, or it's mentioned some place else in the syn3 literature. I found lots of syn3 info, but it's not clear to me if it postdates the 06 transmissions. | ||
| Lorazepam |
I seem to recall last year that harley announced syn 3 could be used in the primary case, as well as the engine. I was buying some syn3 and formula+, and the guy at the parts counter said that I could use it instead of formula+, and it was a new announcement. | ||
| Adrian_8 |
I use formula+ in the Buell transmission..for three reasons.. it is cheaper than a full synthetic like Syn 3 or Mobil 1 and it feels a little heavier which it think is more gear specific; and that is what the MOCO recommends. I would almost bet that the HD dealers would love to sell Syn 3 for all applications..just more $. I believe guys that were running Syn 3 in the new 6 speed Harleys were getting excess gear whine so many have gone back to the old stuff.. 75/90 gear lube.I use Mobil one 15/15 or 20/50 V-twin in the engine and Formula+ in the Trans on the Buell. On my Harley I use Primary lube and Transmission lube and Mobil 1. Three oils.. each one for a specific application. | ||
| Dennis_c |
Has anyone tried G M type automatic transmission fluid [dexron]? Thats all I ran back in the 1970 to early 1980 In all of my dirt bikes. No clutch or transmission problems | ||
| Hughlysses |
Dennis, At least one Badwebber, Rocket (rocketman) is running Dexron ATF in the transmission/primary on his S1W. See discussion here: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/32777/124550.html Not sure how it'd work with the new clutch and transmission of the 06-up bikes. (Message edited by hughlysses on May 15, 2007) | ||
| Motornoggin |
Can't imagine why this continues to be such a matter of contention. Open the owner's manual, take note of the API service specifications the manufacturer calls for. Take note of the recommended weight for the climate you live in, go to someplace the sells oil. Buy oil that meets or exceeds the API service specification called for. Why is this soooooo hard to do? If you can't decide something as simple as which oil to use, maybe you shouldn't be riding a motorcycle, or driving a car, or making a sammich, or breathing! Sheesh! | ||
| Lorazepam |
Motornoggin, dont be dragging common sense into this thread. It is about oil, after all. | ||
| Jmhinkle |
Common sense has no place in an online forum! Shame on you! | ||
| Jmhinkle |
EG97, I missed your post way at the top asking me a couple of questions. I answered some of it to Hughlysses, but I forgot to add the MPG part. I cannot comment on if it has caused an increase because I changed oil at the exact time winter gas was phased out so I went from 140 miles to 180+ a tank. I can't directly say how much was related to the oil, but the best I remeber from pre winter gas last fall I was getting around 160-170 a tank, but the bike was also low on miles to. Just for some non scientific fan data, I worked a double MSF this past weekend and rode the bike both days. Saturday was 55 degrees when I left at 6:30AM. Route is 15.61 miles from the house which breaks down to about 1 mile dirt road @55 MPH, 4 miles city streets @35MPH, 2 5 mile sections of highway type riding 60-90MPH. Fan only came on when I shut the bike off. It didn't even come on for the highway portion but I was riding at speed limit of 65MPH. At 6PM it was 85 degrees and muggy. Fan came on somewhere on 2nd highway portion when I was running 85-90. That portion turns into a 45MPH road and dead ends where I turn onto a 35MPH street for a 1/2 mile then another for a mile or so. Fan turned off while waiting to turn left at the intersection of the two 35MPH roads. About 2 miles from the 65MPH portion. Came on again when I shut the bike off. Sunday morning was 60 degrees. Had to bypass the second portion of the highway as I needed gas. Fan only came on when I shut the bike off for gas about 4 miles from destination. Came on when I shut the bike off again at destination. At 6 PM it was 85 again but not as muggy. Fan came on somewhere on 1st highway section, but I was running 90 the whole time on both sections. It turned off on one of the 35 MPH roads about 2.5 miles from the house while at a stoplight. Only turned on again when I shut it off. My point is that the fans seems to run in a fashion that makes sense now and the oil seems to release heat better. The bike doesn't seem to be boiling hot as it was on 50wt oil all the time. Once my fan came on with 50wt it was on permanently until key was off. I believe from my experience that the volumetric flow of 40wt allows it to cool better than 50wt and the little loss of pressure from lighter oil hasn't created any engine noise. It's actually quieter than on 50wt too. About the only sound I notice now is the top-end harmony in the 2.5k to 3k no-load cruising range and it is more subdued compared to the metal ringing (not to be confused with the pinging under load sound I have experienced at sea level) sound it had on 50 wt. |
