| Author | Message | ||
     Stevem123 |
Well I have an observation from my bike that may help others. This may be a bit long but here goes: I ride 27 miles to work beginning at 500 ft elevation, going up over 2000 ft elevation and then back down to sea level. I leave at 4:45 in the morning with temps ranging from 35 to 45 degrees. The last half of the ride is super-slab at sea level. Bike has the race kit installed. I routinly run 80 to 110 MPH on the super-slab for 15-20 minutes so I know the ECM is re-learning the AFM during that time. In the afternoon I can't run that fast and the temps are 70s-80s. I find that this scenario causes my bike to ping badly during the warm part of the day until I can ride out the learning curve of the ECM. Then the pinging stops. Yesterday my wife and I went up over Mt. Hamilton in nice warm temps and the bike never pinged once. I was flogging it hard as it is a very steep and twisty road. My wife and I together put over 500 pounds of payload on the bike so loading the engine is an easy thing to do. We were leading a pack of Buells and Sportsters for this ride so the pace was very spirited to say the least. The Uly performed flawlessly and I have to say I LOVE the bike more every time I ride it. I now have 16K on the clock and it runs great. To make this long story short: Pinging issues can be related to the AFM learning curve from the last ride you did; but knowing this you can ride it out and the pinging may stop if everything else (static timing) is OK. It just takes keeping the RPMs above 3000 for I think 10-15 minutes continuously. That re-learns the curve. I hope this helps some of the pingers out there! BC Steve | ||
| Teeps |
I too have noticed the Uly pinging phenomenon to be fickle with stock ECM, '06 or '07flash. Bottom line, there's something (wrong?) going on in the mapping of the fuel/ignition. | ||
| Jim_sb |
Steve, You may be on to something. I have noticed recently that my bike does not always ping under consistently repeatable circumstances. My typical ride always starts at sea level (home) but will often see altitudes of 6000' or more. So I ride through significant temp. and altitude variations in a short amount of time. Hmmm... Is my computer a "slow learner"? Jim in Santa Barbara | ||
| Stevem123 |
Well, like I said, I think the learning curve for the AFV (adaptive fuel valve) is the main culprit. It does do what it's supposed to do but it's too slow to learn in my opinion. I don't think there's really a problem or anything wrong. Just the nature of this beast. They'ed have to change the updating algorithims in the ECM to make it learn faster but that might require a faster processor. I'm no programmer but I'm pretty good with hardware issues. I've never had a problem when I have done long rides. The micro-climates we have on the west coast can tell you a lot about that. I've also noticed the condition and level of the oil can make a difference to how hot the bike runs too. I only use dino oil so you syn guys may not see that. BC Steve BC Steve | ||
| Davo |
The AFV can learn in less than 10 minutes. Get the engine to operating temperature first then ride 50-55 mph on level ground. Steady throttle with very little if any TPS movement and the ECM will renew the AFV if needed. The AFV is only used during open loop. It is possible to prevent the ECM from learning a new AFV but there is little benefit in street riding. O2 sensor is the substitute for AFV in closed loop. During the closed loop the O2 is sending signals to the ECM to maintain 14.7:1. There is a way to keep the O2 at the default but if it is disconnected after booting up the ECM then the O2 value drops to the bottom of the scale which is not good. Regardless O2 and AFV manipulation is not beneficial for street applications. It is beneficial for diagnostics and off road closed course activities. If you lock in your AFV at a high altitude when the engine is not pinging then you will have more problems at lower altitudes when you enter open loop. If you lock in AFV at low altitudes then enter open loop at higher elevations then then you may go richer but most Uly's do not ping at higher altitudes. It is my opinion and I stand alone with this opinion that the surging at 3K cruise and pinging is a result of spark curve and is not related to fueling of the bike directly. | ||
| Stevem123 |
That's interresting Davo. I Don't want to lock in the AFV. That would defeat the purpose of fuel injection in my thoughts. You may be right about the spark curve but does it change in the mapping? Otherwise, why would my bike ping on some warm rides and not on other warm rides? Fuel differences could also be a culprit but I usually gas up at the same place when im doing the regular commute thing so I don't see that as a being a possibility here. I wish I knew more about the programming. BC Steve | ||
| Jbuly |
Can anyone describe the pinging noise? I have a Mar '06 Uly and on the throttle I hear a faint noise like a compression release valve would make from down around the exhaust connection area. Possibly just a faulty connection at the exhaust or do any others here this old familiar (two stroke) sound? The dealer installed a Drummer SS before I took delivery along with the race ECM and a K&N air filter. Otherwise, performance appears normal. | ||
| Nutsosane |
That does not sound like pinging. NUTS | ||
| L_je |
The pinging will sound like your Uly ingested some marbles. Because the rear cylinder is shrouded by the frame, rear cylinder pinging can be a little muffled, but you'll know it's going on by the reduction in engine power. | ||
| Stevem123 |
OK here's another one. After my usual high-speed run yesterday morning in 40ish temps I had to make a 40 mile run mostly on the highway to a meeting then 40 miles home. I was running late as usual so I was running hard till I went through town where traffic made me slow down. Before I hit the traffic I had put on about 15 miles in high speed mode. In traffic I had the telltale ping just above 3K RPM if I whacked it hard. After some subdued riding through town the ping went away. Out of town I hit it hard again until I got to the destination. Again I got ping when I slowed and whacked the throttle above 3K RPM. Finally on the way home I kept it respectable and even had to lane-split for several miles of stop&go traffic. I didn't have ping even after sitting at long stoplights. All this was at relatively the same temperatures of about 70 degrees. I think it has as much to do with the AFV learning the temps of the engine and adjusting accordingly. Heres my thoughts why: At higher speeds the engine runs cooler and the AFV can set the AF ratio leaner. Then as you slow and the engine runs hotter with less air flow, the AFV is still set for the cooler condition which equals PING! It needs to learn quicker! BC Steve | ||
| Stevem123 |
Ok I need to clarify some. My 80 miles to the meeting and then home was done in the afternoon at 70 degree temps. Mainly what I see is that in town dealing with traffic and stoplights there is no way to maintain constant RPMs to allow a new AFV setting to take place so the last value is used. If you have been running higher speeds the greater airflow across the engine and the constant RPMs make the AFV set for a leaner condition resulting in pinging once you hit traffic and slower speeds where constant RPMs can't be held long enough to change the AFV setting. I haven't verified this with VDSTS yet because I'm waiting for them to upgrade the software so that timing will be logged as well as the other stuff. I'd really like to see them also log speed but I don't think speed is sampled by the ECM so it may not be possible. Modern technology; how did we ever operate without it? LOL! BC Steve | ||
| Davo |
BC Steve, The ping you described is at closed loop and the AFV is only used when the engine goes back to open loop. The pinging you experienced is at the 2800-3200 cruise with low TPS (9-12%). At this parameter the ECM puts an added 10 degrees on average into the ignition. When you throttle up then the added advance drops off and the condition for pinging reduces. I have run logs with the VDSTS on board and have documented this condition several times. The solution is later timing, increased fuel quality or lower compression. I think that a factory authorized solution is very close. | ||
| Stevem123 |
Thanks Davo, Glad to know they are working on a solution. I didn't know the ECM changed the timing curves as well as the fuling maps. I thought the timing curves were set in stone and only the fuling maps changed based on conditions. It's not really too bad on mine but I'm sure the fix will make it a much better ride than the already superb bike that it is. From my experience with old muscle cars, 10 degrees is quite a lot! I'm using the Ipaq pocket PC running windows mobile 5.0 and VDSTS. Mine won't log timing? It looks like the version for standard PC does but I can't carry a standard PC on the bike and I don't have a laptop to use so I'm stuck until they upgrade VDSTS for mobile platforms. BC Steve | ||
| Davo |
BCSteve, The timing map cover a lot of realestate. The condition that you described has advance numbers in advance of 50 degrees according to VDSTS. The initial static procedure sets the CPS about 7 BTDC. Therefor the total advance for your condition is around 60 degrees if VDSTS is accurate. I have watched the advance curve at no load rpms with a light and the software is accurate. In order to verify the numbers at your condition it requires a dyno to load the engine while watching the flywheel with a light. I do not think anyone has done this yet. | ||
| Stevem123 |
Interresting observations Davo. I would think that real data from an operating bike would be more beneficial in determining what's actually happening. There's more to the equation than just engine load as my bike shows under real circumstances. Temperature and airflow (bike speed) seems to have more to do with it than anything else. I don't understand the open/closed loop thing other than the open loop doesn't use the O2 sensor until the bike comes up to operating temp. If I ride easy it will eventually stop pinging when whacking the throttle at 3K RPM. I do have the race ECM installed which I'm sure has agressive timing in the upper RPM ranges. My tuber race ECM was needed to stop the lean condition in the midrange for those bikes and totally solved the pinging on my 01 S3T. I've been tempted to check for pinout differences between the two, and if they are the same, swap them out and see if that's a fix. I just haven't had time to do that lately and doubt I would be so lucky to have the same pinouts on bikes 4 years apart. BC Steve | ||
| Ihavemanyfleas |
I was having identical problems, and Buell took my power plant to run tests on it in the lab. I'm hoping this helps them provide some answers. | ||
| Teeps |
Davo Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 11:51 am: BC Steve, The ping you described is at closed loop and the AFV is only used when the engine goes back to open loop. The pinging you experienced is at the 2800-3200 cruise with low TPS (9-12%). At this parameter the ECM puts an added 10 degrees on average into the ignition. When you throttle up then the added advance drops off and the condition for pinging reduces. I have run logs with the VDSTS on board and have documented this condition several times. The solution is later timing, increased fuel quality or lower compression. I think that a factory authorized solution is very close. Davo, I hope you are correct about the factory "authorized" solution being close. I have thought from the start that a remap of the ignition curve would solve the problem. | ||
| Lorazepam |
I guess I need to log the timing curve for you davo. I have a race kit, and it solved the lean surge and gave me more top end, but the midrange feels about the same. No pings, and I noticed that the timing changed from 47 to 5 when the temps were up to operating level. If you are interested, I will make an attempt to log it, and email it to you. Email me what you want, and I will do my best. | ||
| L_je |
Can we adjust the timing curves to compensate for the Earth's magnetic field? Just today, we were up in Suches, GA, for MBIV. I wrung out the Uly with not even a hint of ping. When my wife and I returned to metro Atlanta this evening....ping! Same tank of gas. Go figure. My 616 front tire has 12k on it, and it was wearing unevenly on the sides. Because of this, I had a tough/unnerving time today carrying speed through the corners. A lot of times I had to wrench the throttle coming out of the turns to try to close down the distance between me and my wife. ...in metro ATL, throttle commands like this would often set up a pinging condition, but up in the mountains, nothing! ...the elevation in metro ATL is about 1000 ft MSL, and maybe 3000 ft MSL up in the Suches area, so there isn't much of an elevation [pressure] difference. ...this leaves me with the feeling that global position has something to do with my ping. ...so, I'm going to start fabricating an iron-alloy shroud for my ECM, to better shield it from magnetic field effects!  | ||
| Dentguy |
My uly is at the dealer this week for the pinging. I have not heard anything yet (I did tell them to take their time) but, I did speak with customer service today. They are very involved with the dealer trying to fix the problem. Customer service has been very helpful so far. Keeping my fingers crossed.........ihavemanyfleas did you get the engine broken in yet and does it ping? | ||
| Ihavemanyfleas |
I really want to know if anyone that has on 07 has had the ping experience that the 06 fellas have had... Please PM me if you have. | ||
| Teeps |
I really want to know if anyone that has on 07 has had the ping experience that the 06 fellas have had fleas, Good question. I haven't seen an '07 on the road yet... I wonder if any have even been sold. From my experience the fickle nature of the pinging, is such that, a person may not discover "their bike" pings for some time. Ironically, mine didn't start pinging until I started reading about the problem here... That begs the question of, when did the engine really start pining, was it there from new or at around 4500 miles, when I started "looking" for it? Either way, I've yet to read about an engine failure due to pining. | ||
| Dirt |
I have an 07. Experienced some electrical problems as of late, but the engine runs very strong with no pinging. 3.5k on the odometer using 89 octane. So far so good. | ||
| Teeps |
Dirt, You're lucky if you can run 89 and not have any pining. Next time you find yourself riding up a hill on a warm day (+70F.) try this: In 3rd gear, cruise at about 3500RPM, then accelerate moderately. If your bike pings it should be evident in the 4K to 4500RPM range. One thing I didn't mention above, is I can't hear pining with ear plugs in. | ||
| Dirt |
I've put over 70K on my softail using 89 octane. Never have had a problem, even in the middle of summer with temps in the 90's and over 100. For now, I figured I'd try the same with the Buell. It's still a little cool here, but I may have to switch to 93 octane when it warms up. | ||
| Tootal |
I hadn't had any pinging problems until last weekend when it hit 80 degrees here and I was stuck in traffic. Just leaving the stop signs sounded like a bucket of marbles and I wasn't flogging it either. Mine is an 06 and I thought I had it running perfect after a hot TPS setting and resetting the AFV to 100. Resetting the AFV did the most to cure the surging/bucking at low rpm. Al from American Sportbike had a thread somewhere that claimed you should reset the AFV at Sea Level if possible. Since your travels get you to sea level you might try reseting it to 100 there and see if there is any improvement, it sure helped mine. The pinging is mostly a timing issue and I hope the software I have will allow a timing check. I wish they had incorporated a knock sensor in with their other sensors. It's not new technology and is in the S&S ignition I run on my Road Glide and it works! (Message edited by tootal on April 08, 2007) | ||
| Teeps |
As I understand it, the AFV is a moving target. That is the ECM is constantly adjusting the AFV to the ambient conditions. | ||
| Tootal |
I found the thread and reread it and my memory did not serve me well. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/384 2/248933.html?1167764004 This is what I read and Al was saying at sea level the afv should be around 100. I don't know how I read into that statement that you needed to reset at sea level. Must have been drinkin! Anyway I understand the afv is a moving target but for some strange reason my bike was unhappy when I pulled into the garage and after resetting the afv to 100 it was a lot happier. Even when cold it doesn't surge and runs smooth down to 2200 rpm. 2000 is pushing it but it's much better than before and I don't understand it but I'll take it. | ||
| Davo |
There was some speculative discussion some time ago about getting your AFV higher by riding conservatively at sea level and then get it locked in by removing the VSS at the ECM ("the other white wire"). This would keep a slightly richer value for open loop operation. This was purely speculative and has not been tested to my knowledge on a dyno with a O2 sensor. The purpose of the pursuit was to develop another diagnostic tool or maybe to improve off road activities. | ||
| Alchemy |
First pinging today. I was ending up an hour of riding by grabbing a sandwich at a drive through and the car in front was taking a long time ordering and also getting their order. I was left sitting and idling for longer than I expected waiting behind this car (fan was on). When I got my order I stuffed it in my jacket and pulled away onto the highway and I had pinging in 3 gears at certain speeds as I accelerated with the hot engine. This is the first time I have experienced this. I have about 3200 miles and the 07 air box and reflash (several weeks ago). Maybe this is to be expected if the engine is particularly hot. It was in the low 80's today. The pinging is distinct and gets your attention. |
