| Author | Message | ||
     Vr1203 |
I want ABS ,have it on my 1150GS BMW and will not give it up until I find another bike with it. Buell was going to offer it ,has it happened? | ||
| Stevem123 |
Better keep riding the beemer then. I don't remember Buell saying anything about ABS? I don't want ABS and never will on a motorcycle. Cars yes, Bikes NO! IMO if you can't keep from locking the brakes on a bike then maybe you shouldn't ride one. No offense intended just my opinion. BC Steve | ||
| Arcticktm |
Stevem123, I think the whole point to ABS is to encourage people to hit the brakes harder without fear of locking on unpredictable road surfaces. Most accident analysis seem to agree that people are too gentle on the brakes in an emergency (4 wheels or 2). My BMW R1200C has ABS, and it is fantastic, especially in the rain. Gives you more confidence. I am not lacking in poor condition braking confidence, having done AMA Enduro racing in MI and MN. That being said, I bought my '06 Uly with little concern over it not having ABS. My experience with Ducati showed me that proper brake feel and rider training can be more effective and less complex. The Buell has such great front brake feel that I do not long for ABS on it at all. BMW brakes, along with their front suspension, do not seem to give the same feel as the Duc or Buell, so confidence can be harder to come by. | ||
| Thunderbox |
Well Steve I guess you are going to be without a new bike in the future then. For 08 or 09 all motorcycles sold in Canada over 650ccs will be equiped with ABS. No Ifs buts or ands. Sorry to blow your bubble kid. I just have to ask have you ridden a bike with ABS and actually did multiple surface full brake stops. It is awsum. Try it without and you are down right now. | ||
| Arcticktm |
Geez, I sure hope you are wrong on the Canadian law change. I hate it when the government thinks they know better and tries to "protect us" from ourselves. I just cannot see the OEM's putting ABS on bikes that don't already have it just to sell in Canada. It just isn't a big enough market to justify the expense. I know H-D does ABS for police models, but they also charge a lot of $$$ for them. Maybe it would be good news for BMW of Canada, though. | ||
| Thunderbox |
I think thats why they are not firm on the date for implementation as it is causing a lot of problems in the manufacturing segment. I would not be surprised to see it extended again. But who knows. Probably will add about 400 or 500 bucks to the price of a new machine. Now I want ABS on my snowmobile lol. | ||
| Treadmarks |
I have had ABS and it is ok for a street bike, but not for a track bike. The difference is beemers and goldwings are not race inspired like the Buell line up. I would like to have it on my soft tail, just not on my Uly. | ||
| Jim_sb |
Wow, looks like the do-gooders are ruling the roost in Canada. I understand that ABS will help less skilled riders - but I don't think it helps those who are skilled - especially if they practice hard braking as taught by the MSF courses. I guess next they'll put governors on all the bikes and limit us to 55mph? Then they can put on anti-wheelie devices that shut off the engine if a bank angle sensor goes above xx degrees. Or hey why not go with mandatory 3 wheelers that way no one can fall over? Don't worry son your Momma is gonna protect you from yourself... I personally wouldn't spend the extra bucks for ABS - there are times off pavement when I would want to turn it off so I could lock up my rear when I need to - like going down a loose, steep slope. I think the Canadian government has gone too far. ABS is readily available in the market place - if folks want it they can buy it. Sheesh. Seriously ask yourself one question - what happens to the poor SOB who learns ZERO braking skills - because the computer does it all for him - the first time his computer takes a vacation and he finds out in a panic stop that his anti-skid computer is out to lunch? Ruh-roh... It's the same way in flying. Even a small airplane can have an autopilot that will fully couple and shoot an awesome ILS approach right down to minimums. What happens if you allow your skills to erode using the electronic black box - the first time it goes Tango Uniform and you're in pea soup and you need to land that aircraft? For better or worse I like to be the one operating the controls. The black boxes are great to have - but I'm not going to bet my life on the black box being perfect. Best, Jim in Santa Barbara | ||
| Arcticktm |
ABS is going for $1000 on most models that offer it as an option in the US. I wouldn't mind ABS on my Uly if it didn't mess up the brake feel, but it would have to be like a BMW GS where you can shut it off for off road. I would not have paid $1k for it, though. I have had cars where I wanted it shut off in extreme conditions like loose gravel and ice. Thunderbox - I was a Engineering Manager at Arctic Cat for 4 years, and I can say that of all the stupid ideas we considered, ABS was (thankfully) not one of them. | ||
| Stevem123 |
Well I haven't ridden a bike with ABS so maybe I am a little biased. I do like ABS on the car though! But I'm still on the fence for bikes because I'd rather have the feel. I guess for those bikes with less feel-ability it probably does make sense. I used to ride regardless of the weather but with age, wisdom, and the wifes/kids input, I have decided to relagate my riding to fair weather. I do get to ride in the rain as long as it happens when I'm already on the road. Otherwise I get the third degree from family if I even think about starting the bike on a bad weather day. At least here in Cali the weather is good most of the time. Sorry for sounding so negative about it. I'm against being forced to buy something I don't want even if it's good for me. Don't like helmet laws either but that's another subject. Funny thing is, I'd still wear one without the law. Just would rather have the choice myself. BC Steve | ||
| Reepicheep |
My Buell M2 Cyclone had aftermarket ABS... All I had to do was let the local Harley shop mount a new front tire. Mounted it all back up, pumped the brakes up, pointed it down the steep driveway towards the street, and let 'er rip. Scariest left turn of my life. They must have bent that damn rotor 1/4 inch or more. I'd like my motorcycle to have ABS, but I don't want all the complexity currently required to achieve it. | ||
| Roadrailer |
In a perfect world, a perfect rider riding the perfect road on the perfect bike would get no benefit from ABS. In the real world, however, even experienced riders can benefit from the occasional braking assistance for an unseen patch of gravel or oil, oddball surface irregularities, or even just a plain ol' brain fart. Even the MotoGP guys get it wrong every once in a while. You're not that good. I'd love to see Buell offer ABS as an option. | ||
| Jim_sb |
Sure I can benefit. I can also be lulled into a false sense of security then have the black box fail and be in an ugly spot. You won't learn feel with the computer doing the work every time you hit the brakes. But I do agree with one thing - I'm not that good. But practice sure is fun. Buy ABS if you want - don't force me to buy it. Best, Jim in Santa Barbara | ||
| Roadrailer |
You seem to be awfully fearful of the ABS failing. Is that a very common occurrence? I've not heard of it happening with any regularity. You also need to remember that ABS only activates when the wheel locks. You're not locking your wheels (or coming close) at every stop, are you? ABS brakes "feel" like normal brakes up until the point that the wheel locks, therefore allowing the rider to continue to learn progressive braking, without the penalty of slamming his ass to the pavement when he takes it a bit too far. (Message edited by roadrailer on April 11, 2007) | ||
| Froggy |
I would love to have the ABS. When i was shopping for my Uly, i compared it to the BMW GS and the ABS is what made me give it a serious look. Unfortunately i don't have ABS on the Uly, and if the 08 model has it, odds are ill be trading in for it in a heartbeat. (Message edited by froggy on April 11, 2007) | ||
| Soloyosh |
Try stopping from 50mph on ice. ABS proves its worth then. | ||
| Jmhinkle |
Those systems are not designed for anything besides pavement. Off road requires a totally different driving style that is counter-intuitive to the ABS sensors. It's just like the stupid traction control in both my vehicles that thinks mud or sand is ice and tries to get me stuck. Great idea, but not quite smart enough yet. I personally don't want it and would rather it be an option instead of standard if it becomes available. If I were forced into it, I would wear out the switch turning it on and off. I have a couple of GS friends that wish they didn't have the ABS or the servo brakes because it has caused them all kinds of issues off road. On a street only bike, they are a great idea, off road they are a danger. | ||
| Adrian_8 |
NO ABS for me...when a ZX10R/GSXR/R1 and a CBRR has ABS then I might retthink the situation..When you ride stupid no elecronic gismo is going to save you..if it is 10 degrees below Zero with ice on the road...HELLO.. stay home...Eric Knows Best | ||
| Chinook |
I for one left BMW and am glad my Uly does not have ABS. I always chuckle when my BMW friends turn "off" their ABS when we hit the dirt. Uly = Simple and effective. Did I mention I love the lack of doo-dad and complex shit? | ||
| Vr1203 |
I knew this was going to cause much flinging of opinions. However when the Uly was first introduced the mag articles mentioned Buell was considering ABS and it might be available in the future ,which is now. I don't do dirt with this beemer pig but with the telelever front antidive front forks and ABS I can late brake in any road conditions without bother. Then I can concentrate on the urban or rural obstacles at hand . One less thing to deal with on my small attention plate. When you're tip toeing through potholes, dirt and sand I'll be blasting by and stopping much later and moving on .With rain, ABS is a must . However the rest of the beemer is boring and I was looking for a change.Maybe KTM? | ||
| Madduck |
The dirty little secret with ABS is that it significantly degrades braking performance in normal riding conditions. Something like 98% of all mototrcycle miles are traveled on clean paved roads in the sunshine. An ABS equipped motorcycle will take longer to stop than one without. Check the stopping distances in any motorcycle magazine. My Harley Street Rod would outstop my R1200RT by 20 feet from 70 mph. Before you buy ABS consider how often you will ride in adverse conditions. My BMW also tried to kill me twice when the ABS failed, bad sensor equal poor traction condition also. Scares the hell out of you when the onboard computer decides you don't really need to stop now. I much prefer my motorcyle to not do too much thinking on its own. One of many reasons I traded it in on a Harley Street Glide. The ABS system only works when all of its components are functioning perfectly. Run your heated gear too much and the battery voltage falls and the ABS goes to safe mode, where you have the braking capability of a 1940 Indian. Brakes need to "always" work. Squeeze the lever and you get reliable, predictable stopping power. ABS is designed not to do that one simple task. | ||
| Thunderbox |
I know ABS equiped cars do take longer to stop if the ABS system is racheting. The big difference is on a bike if the front tire locks you are down and down now. No ifs buts or ands. Not quite the same result with the car. Only result of not having ABS on a car is flat spotted tires. I did a BMW driving day with the police last year. Every bike had ABS and we tested on a surface that had multiple surfaces. Sand, oil, pavement and gell. I didn't trust it but you could come on to that section of track with the brakes full on and there was no body dropping the bike. Every fibre of my body said don't do that but it worked extremely well. | ||
| Jim_sb |
I am sorry sir but I must disagree with your "you are down now" comment. I have at times intentionally practiced locking up my front brake and have not gone down during the process. Please understand I do not recommend this technique - but I personally like to explore the limits of braking grip. I also have recovered from the onset of front wheel "tuck" under heavy braking. Again, this is getting into an area that is outside the realm of normal riding - don't try this at home, etc. But if your balance and reactions are proper you can ride through either. Best, Jim in Santa Barbara | ||
| Roadrailer |
In a straight line, on a perfectly clean road, yes, you could save it. I've done myself. Add in sand, gravel, rain, and/or a bit of lean angle and your chances of pavement surfing go way up. | ||
| Jim_sb |
Yeah sure. I don't disagree. But we all have different goals and aspirations from our riding. I first began experimenting with loss of grip on the pavement with my old Sportster. I became comfortable with backing it into corners using the rear brake or perhaps a slightly aggressive downshift. It was easy to do because the stock Rocklops had little traction. Surprisingly controllable. Or so it seemed. Then I went "Buell" with a lovely S2. As my cornering improved and confidence increased I encountered situations where the front, rear or both tires would let go while cornering. At first this really got my attention. Sometimes it was simply from going a little too fast, other times from moisture, temperature, dirt, gravel, etc. As luck would have it I was able to ride through these modest adventures. Then I went out and bought a dirt bike because I figured these bikes are gonna slide from time to time - I may as well learn how to control it. In that regard the dirt bike has been an excellent teacher. I have learned so much about staying on top of the bike when both tires are sliding all the time. Then I sold the S2 and bought a Ulysses. I have found that it grips well in dirty corners - when my friends are sliding my 616's are typically hooked up. Having said that I have pushed it to the point where both wheels slide during a corner. Anyway, I am not per se afraid to slide the bike a bit. I can back a Buell into a corner the same way I did my Sportster - although I rarely do. I have lost both wheels on my Ulysses in the rain during a curve and ridden right through it. Once on my S2 I came over a rise and the road had an immediate (unmarked) sharp turn to the left. Very hard to perform maximum braking while turning. The front wheel tucked on me. I saved it and still made the turn. I was lucky. Was going too fast for what I could see. That's not the point. The point is you can slide your tires and stay upright - front or back or both. And you can do it while cornering or in a straight line. I know this is NOT recommended behavior. But I do feel as if my dirt riding has ingrained many proper reactions - such that I am not thinking what to do as much as I am just reacting to the feel I receive from the bike and staying on top of it. Will it bite me one day? Maybe. I hope not. I agree though - your chances of surfing increase dramatically. Don't try this at home unless you're prepared to pay the bills. For me this whole thing has been a science experiment - learning how to ride. Learning how to control the bike even on the fringes of acceptable activity. Now if I could only wheelie on demand like my friends...  Jim in Santa Barbara | ||
| Wademan |
I personally would love a law that enforced the option of ABS on all bikes. Motorcyclist (I think it was them) did a test with riders of varying skill levels from professional road racers, to grandpa time who had over 500,000 miles under his belt, to Johnny Boy the new rider who uses his bike for mostly commuting... They used ABS and non ABS FJR's and ST1100's. Know what they found..... Only on perfectly dry, clean, pavement could anyone out perform the ABS in stopping distance. That one guy was the pro road racer. He barely beat it by less than five feet. The other tests included stopping in the wet, stopping in the wet over a metal sewer cap, and stopping on gravel (and probably others I dont remember). In everyone of those tests the ABS equiped bikes stopped in drastically shorter distances than the non ABS models. I tried finding this article but could not locate it. In anything other than a track dedicated bike I would love ABS. I am convinced that at some point in time it could save my life. Claiming you can stop as fast without ABS may be true, but don't for a second argue that it is not a good idea for any road going bike. When Soccer Mom decides to take a left in front of me I want to be praying to God, not worrying about applying the correct brake pressure. | ||
| Wademan |
Here it is.... http://www.ibmwr.org/prodreview/abstests.html Although long it is a good read. | ||
| Madduck |
Wademan, They had a functioning ABS. When the computer decides you really don't need to stop what do you do then?? You will have only a few seconds to figure out the override. Your brake lever now just querys the computer suggesting to it that braking is needed, it decides whether it is safe to brake or not. This can be really not good. | ||
| Ka5ysy |
FWIW, the new ABS system used on my BMW R1200R is outstanding and has none of the quirks of the servo boosted system previously used. I have played with the abs to see what it does, and it is awesome. From 65mph, I did a "panic" stop on dry road over a measured mile area. Stop was like dropping an anchor, or making a trap landing on a carrier: 105 feet, no squealing tires, no drops. Rear brake only: Again, 65 mph and stomped it: 120 feet, no tire squeal, no wobbles, perfectly in control. Gravel driveway, deep gravel: straight stops allowing the front wheel to wobble around like a dirt bike. Real world stuff: Hard left turn trail braking when some non-obvious sand patch was hit. Front end sensed the wheel stall and released the brakes very quickly and the only noticeable activity was a very slight step-out of the front end until the sand was cleared, which recovered easily. This abs system has a normal feel, no pulsing at all, and does not degrade the brakes if anything fails. Net result is that I personally love this abs implementation and would recommend it to anyone. Regardless of what the street wisdom is, ABS will save you butt faster than a non-abs setup when it really counts. If you have not experienced this abs, go find a BMW dealership and go play with it for a real-world test. One other thing: This setup is small, and could be implemented on Buell bikes, unlike that mess HD uses for the police bikes that take up half of a side case. Yikes! Doug | ||
| Arcticktm |
Madduck, Sounds to me like your negative ABS experience is more due to BMW's power boosted brake system. It really has nothing to do with the ABS. When the boosted system fails, you lose a lot of your braking power, and it is downright scary, based on my experience with a friends RT1150. My R1200C has only ABS, no linked system, and no boost system. Even if the ABS wheel sensors fail (low voltage or fails to calibrate on start up), the brakes still work normally. You just don't get the anti-lock feature. Most of you probably know that BMW has FINALLY decided to drop the much hated boost system. |
