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Brucelee
| | Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 12:31 pm: | 
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Oh, by the way, pull out your dictionary and look up these words.
FACTS
FEEDBACK
DATA
EXPERIENCE
Instructive. |
Steveford
| | Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 12:41 pm: |
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On the subject of the fans, when the XBs were getting ready to go into production, they had the fan capable of running in both directions. At certain speeds it'd cool better blowing air towards the cylinder but when they went into production they just went with extracting the air.
I'd like to hear from the XB12Ss owners to see if their fans run as much as they do on the Ulysses. I just asked a fellow with an '05 XB12R and his fan hardly comes on at all.
Is it the new frame design that's causing the higher engine temperatures? |
Az_m2
| | Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 01:59 pm: |
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I think some folks are just bothered by the fact that the fan runs period. I think there is a psychological 'thing' that makes one think that if a fan is running, it must be because the engine is on the verge of melting.
I'll admit that's part of it for me. That and the attention it draws to me and the bike.
"Is it the new frame design that's causing the higher engine temperatures?"
From what I've read, I think it's a luck of the draw thing. Some folks fans run constantly, some very little. Tho, I haven't paid attention to bike model.
I thought I needed more miles before the fan came on less, but no such luck.
I did experience 2 consecutive days when the fan ran very little. Both days there was heavy rain here in Phoenix. But I also rode in heavy rain before and after with the same result I've got now.
Isn't it a GOOD thing (and proof of how far Buell has come) that we are complaining about fan noise as opposed to something else (like EFI, leaking shocks, parts falling off, etc.)? |
Lowflyer
| | Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 03:32 pm: |
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My fan doesn't come on all that much at all. I honestly don't know what all the fuss over it is about. As I said, mine comes on when I shut the bike down or am stuck in traffic. Forgive me if I don't think a second scoop could be very effective when the bike is not moving. It seems fairly straightforward to me.
" install the scoop, and the fan runs about 2-5% as much as it ever did before.
If that is good enough for you then great. You must have different riding conditions or some other variable that caused your fan to come on while cruising.
"It is just funny that you guys who don't actually have it are sitting here trying to argue that it can't really work."
I am not arguing that it can't work. I am arguing whether or not you or anybody truly knows if it does, or if it is just that you feel like it does.
"Did you do your own dyno on it to prove it works BEFORE you bought it and paid $600? "
I'm not saying that I have to do my own research. I am asking if anybody has come up with the numbers. As for the race kit, there is already plenty of data and I feel content in my decision not to purchase one. I am not sure about the scoop and would like to see some data because it does not appear to me that it could cause my fan to run less. In fact, I would wager that my fan runs about as much as yours with the scoop installed. I would wager that your fan out of the crate ran 95-98% more than mine.
This discussion has gotten ridiculous. All I am pondering is whether or not the second scoop is really necessary, and if so, what are the true benefits. I suppose if I was predisposed to bitch about fan noise and I could somehow perceive less of it after installing the second scoop, that would be one benefit. That is obviously more than enough justification for some folks to jump on the band wagon and start waving the two-scoops flag. I'm just not wired that way. What I would really like to know is will it cause my rear cylinder to run 33.25% cooler at highway speeds? Will that even the temps between the front and rear? What are the critical temps? How does the air flow change with the new scoop?
The Band-Aid comment is just plain mean. You know exactly what I am driving at. It costs $0.03 to determine which bandage works best. There is a difference there, at least in my mind.
Mods are funny things. Some folks get emotionally attached to them for some reason. I like to stay detached and look at them in terms of cost vs. benefit. That is probably why I have so few mods on my bike.
The bottom line is that you have no idea if you require the second scoop because of a faulty temp sensor, faulty fan switch, or faulty programming in the ECM, or chafed wires, etc... |
44mag
| | Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 04:17 pm: |
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Ahhhh ... the "flat earth" defense used on a motorcycle. If the Earth looks flat, it must be flat. Right?  Why consider any other data? |
Az_m2
| | Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 05:48 pm: |
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Lowflyer, if your fan ran 95-98% more than it does now, literally running every second on high the entire time your ride after warm-up, would it bother you? |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 06:28 pm: |
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Too cool can be problematic too.
Erik's comment about oil cooking in the heads pertains to a heat-soak situation after shutting down the engine when the oil just sits there. It does not pertain at all to any kind of operational condition, even idling in stagnant air.
I'm not all convinced that running a right side scoop is a good idea or not. In really hot conditions, it would not be a concern, but in cooler conditions, it could well prevent the oil from achieving optimum temperature and evaporating accumulated moisture. |
Lowflyer
| | Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 07:17 pm: |
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Az,
Yes, that might bother me. I would probably be looking for relief. However, that would not cause me to throw logic out the window and act emotionally. At least not until I had exhausted all other possibilities that cost less than $250. I'm not saying that the right scoop doesn't work. I'm also not saying, "Where're the happy right side scoop customers." I am asking where's the proof? Obviously, some guys have it and swear by it. What they swear is that their fan runs less than before. Now we even have a 95-98% fan operating reduction figure from one happy double-scooper. That's great. What are those percentages based on? Was this data gleaned from some sort of fan duty cycle log?
I know a guy at work that swears his gas mileage is improved by leaving the tailgate of his pickup down. I have known a number of other folks including my own dad that agree with that tailgate technique. I believed that for years myself until I learned a little something about aerodynamics. It took a Mythbusters episode to bring my Dad around. Everybody says it so it must be true. Right?
Scoop or not, until somebody tests it for real, it's a leap of faith either way. The only thing I can do is postulate that it would make little or no difference on my own bike. That is based upon the fact that my fan only seems to operate when the bike is not moving or moving relatively slowly. In those cases, you can have 5 scoops and it won't matter. |
Ulendo
| | Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 07:37 pm: |
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"I'd like to hear from the XB12Ss owners to see if their fans run as much as they do on the Ulysses. I just asked a fellow with an '05 XB12R and his fan hardly comes on at all.
XB9Sx - when brand new, it cycled a lot. now I'm over 3000km, it hardly cycles at all.
Symptoms I've noticed:
highway riding - no fan
mild riding @ >2500rpm no fan.
mild riding @ <2500rpm fan on while riding.
hard riding - fan on, up to 2 minutes after I slow down, then off.
short trips - no fan, even when I stop.(all others do the quick cool down fan cycle when I stop)
seems to me its the stop and go type driving and / or lugging the motor that really gets the fan cycling at 'odd' times on the CityX. Scoop wouldn't help me much, as its a low speed issue. You'd asked for comparison info - all subjective, $0.02 YMMV |
Az_m2
| | Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 08:25 pm: |
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Lowflyer, understand and agree with your point.
Oh and my dealer checked it out and confirmed that it's operating normally. |
Teeps
| | Posted on Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 10:45 am: |
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Steveford Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 12:41 pm:
<snip>
I'd like to hear from the XB12Ss owners to see if their fans run as much as they do on the Ulysses. I just asked a fellow with an '05 XB12R and his fan hardly comes on at all.
Is it the new frame design that's causing the higher engine temperatures?
I can say (based on personal observation) that it's not the ECM. I have an '05XB12 ECM in my Ulysses, and the fan still runs as much as it did,with the Ulysses ECM.
So, by observation, I would suppose it has something to do with the Ulysses configuration. How or what is a mystery to me.
For now, foam earplugs and looking straight ahead when stopped at a light works for me. |
Davo
| | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 10:34 pm: |
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I removed my right side plate today to get a look inside the beast and it is pretty clear that the plate is there to preheat the fuel delivery system and to lock up some heat in the heads. I will be conducting some tests in the next couple of days with cool down times at rest with and without the right side cover. If I can get cool down recovery as quick or quicker without the cover I may try running it open to reduce high speed pre-ignition. |
Aeholton
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 08:57 am: |
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I've been running without my right side cover since my fan quit. You will feel more heat on the right leg, but I believe it allows better cooling. My fan isn't running as long after shutdown. |
Davo
| | Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 10:05 pm: |
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Aeholton,
I ran some tests tonight with the right side plate and without it. I ran the same test loop and worked the bike over pretty good. Three times: without, with and then again without. These are my arrival temps. 379, 397 and 401. Each time I arrived back at the garage the recovery cool down time for the engine idling was about the same. Each time it recovered by about 7 degrees in about four minutes. The most significant finding was less pinging during stop and go and it appeared that the cool down after periods of idling was better with the side plate removed. My conclusion is that the right side plate traps heat around the injectors during idling and therefor creates fertile ground for pre-ignition. I am going to keep it off and do some more hot weather riding with it removed. |
Ray_r
| | Posted on Saturday, June 17, 2006 - 10:06 pm: |
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I have a XB12Ss, and my buddy has a '05 Firebolt. My fan comes on sooner than his. I think it's part of the "enhanced cooling" that was advertised for the '06 models. |
Davo
| | Posted on Saturday, June 17, 2006 - 10:21 pm: |
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It seems the pinging is gone! I was being too conservative with retarding the timing. I am much later than factory. I think there is a static timing issue with the factory. Similar to the TPS reset issue.
FYI I am about 7 degrees after fuel pump/CPS excited to 5 volts. The TDC mark is just visible past the right side of the timing window! The CPS is about 2.5mm counterclockwise from straight up or factory setting.
Went out for a hard ride with the right side cover on. I let the bike idle for five minutes then 10 miles home. 397 F and no pinging!
(Message edited by davo on June 18, 2006) |
44mag
| | Posted on Monday, June 19, 2006 - 02:23 pm: |
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I think that I need to retard my timing more. I still ping when the bike is hot and accelerating on steep hills. Davo ... could you post a picture of where the timing mark should be in the window? Also, how far did you rotate the timing adjustment? |
Davo
| | Posted on Monday, June 19, 2006 - 10:10 pm: |
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44 mag check out "timing" thread I am hoping the factory will chime in on this one. The timing solution makes scoops and right side covers a moot point. |
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