| Author |
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Lovehamr
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 08:39 pm: | 
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Lowflyer, don't knock it until you've tried it. If for no other reason other than the way it sounds, it's still worth it. I do agree about the stoplight grand prix though, not it's forte' even modded. However twisties with your brother in-law on his GS can be even more entertaining! LOL You just have to pick your opponents, not every R1 that comes down the pike. |
Buelldyno_guy
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 12:54 am: |
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This thing is still an XB and even though it's longer and taller, it will still turn inside of almost any other stock sport bike out there. It looks like there will be a some mods that will compliment it's place in the sport bike food chain. I only have a few thousand miles on mine and have done a 500 mile day consisting of both twistes and interstate and a serious 275 mile twisty day on less than perfect roads. I think that mine is going to end up with 1250-cc with Rev Perf Stg 3 heads, Micron Exhaust, and a remapped stock ECM. I believe it will come in somewhere between 110 and 115 RWHP and about 85 ft/lbs of torque. I hope I can keep the MPG somewhere between 35 and 40 which will drive the MBFU down between 140 to 160. ... Terry |
2hogs
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 06:44 am: |
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Terry,
Humm, I didn't actually think about possible lean conditions with the race ECM and a muffler other than the Buell race can. Maybe I'll just have to order the race kit from Daves at some point. Too bad Buell doesn't make the race can in black.
Call me crazy but that shiny muffler looks like it would be hard to keep clean with the tar, mud, etc kicked up from the front tire. Not spending hours cleaning it was one factor in my XB12X purchase.
Cheers |
Lowflyer
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 09:45 am: |
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My tone was meant to be more inquisitive than mocking. I just have no clear understanding of what the purpose of the race kit would be on a Uly.
Let's break this down. Please skew this to suit your own point of view. I'm not baiting anyone. I just want to see if the race kit is worth a damn to me.
Pros:
1. Bike is faster than stock.
2. Bike sounds better.
3. Rider gets good feeling from more sound and speed
4. Rider can talk endlessly about components added, resulting changes to dyno results, and future mods in store for the bike.
5. Rider generally sounds more knowledgeable about bikes when talking to strangers about performance mods done to bike.
Cons:
1. Bike may be less reliable.
2. Bike burns more gas.
3. $600 cost.
4. Motor will wear out faster.
5. A$$ still gets kicked regularly by any sport bike out there; only now without any excuse or plausible recourse.
6. Transmission will wear out faster.
7. Bike no longer ideal for touring.
8. Warranty voided?
9. Wife pissed about the $600 blown on intangibles. |
Electraglider_1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 10:52 am: |
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Lowflyer,
I tend to agree with you. I also own a Harley and have always been amazed at the expenditure on chrome, especially the bikes for sale with under 3,000 miles with $5,000 worth of chrome on them. I'd be embarrassed to be selling a bike with more dollars of chrome than miles. I've heard these same chromosexuals bragging about all the shiny ••••• on their now over weight sleds. Anyway, here is how to get all these expensive noise and power mods for probably no cost: Wait a year or so and just watch for the ULY's up for sale that someone has spent a fortune modifying but has not really ridden. Probably get the bike for under 10 grand. Mark my words, you see these kinds of bikes in the classified ads all the time. Personally, I'm more into comfort mods like seats, windshields and maybe that front fender. The ULY is plenty fast. Now if someone can figure out a mod that will give me 10 or 20 more mpg then I'll be interested. Oh yeah, I can see how someone that races a bike wants every advantage but to race mod for street only is over the top to me. To each his own though. |
Lowflyer
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 12:33 pm: |
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Again, I am not knocking the race kit, I am trying to rationalize it. Perhaps this is one of those things that should not be rationalized; like having kids and/or bowhunting. |
Thunderbox
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 12:36 pm: |
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Why buy a race kit when you can get real usable torque and HP increases where they count. From 2000 to 4500 rpm using the Drummer muffler. Nothing is as good as the Drummer for real world driving. If you want to do mods to get hi HP numbers at 6800rpm then go with the race kit. |
Brat
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 04:02 pm: |
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I'm confused, you want someone to rationalise an add-on to a 200kg 1200cc off road bike, yeah right!  |
Lovehamr
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 07:45 pm: |
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Lowflyer,
"I am trying to rationalize it” Just MHO here but trying to rationalize just about any motorcycle is an exercise in futility, but here goes;
#1 What would make it less reliable? A different muffler? A K&N type filter? A different factory ECM? I’m may be missing the point. Wouldn’t be the first time though.
#2 OK it may use more gas. If that were a big concern I’d drive a Prius or something, not a 1200 cc play bike.
#3 It costs what it costs, if that’s to much for a person then they shouldn’t buy it. There are cheaper alternatives. That same cost question could be raised about the purchase cost of almost any MC that’s not someone’s sole transportation.
#4 It’s not much of an increase in stress on the internals. Let’s just say that I’m no more worried about that than I am about my Toyota Tacoma with a supercharger that now has 107K mi. on it. Non issue.
#5 Not in the twisties and try playing with a beemer GS or something comparable rather than something like an R1. If you’re talking about the stoplight grand prix again then I have to say that anyone who bought this bike for that is a duffus anyway.
#6 See #4
#7 “Bike no longer ideal for touring.” Uh, it’s not a touring bike. You can do that with it within certain limits but if that’s what you really want buy a Lead Wing or something.
#8 My dealer has no problem with it.
#9 “Wife pissed about the $600 blown on intangibles.” I only have one thing to say to this one……..Pansy! LOL  |
Dave
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 07:50 pm: |
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Cons:
1. Bike may be less reliable. Not fact-speculation
2. Bike burns more gas. Fact or speculation? I've seen reports that suggest the heavy throttle hand causes poor MPG
3. $600 cost. Fact...though you're talking the whole kit and not just a muffler
4. Motor will wear out faster. More speculation...if not complete BS
5. A$$ still gets kicked regularly by any sport bike out there; only now without any excuse or plausible recourse. More speculation? Naw...just BS
6. Transmission will wear out faster. Specualtion/BS...it seems to be running together now
7. Bike no longer ideal for touring. Speculation and personal opinion
8. Warranty voided? No
9. Wife pissed about the $600 blown on intangibles Depends on the wife |
2hogs
| | Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 06:42 am: |
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Lowflyer,
This isn't a personal attack, but you put "more speed" in your profile for what Buell can do to improve their motorcycles. Have you owned Buells in the past or is the XB12X your first Buell? My XB12X is my first Buell and I love it. I knew the XB wasn't a straight line speed machine when I bought it, but it's comfort and curve handling are 2 things it does well and 2 reasons I bought it.
My personal opinion on the overall engineering behind the Buell is this: It has 103hp from the factory and it would last a long time, maybe 100k+ miles, at this output with proper maintenance. So adding the race kit, offered by the same folks that designed the bike, should not effect it's longevity by itself. What may effect longevity is how you ride the bike after the install. Finally, most dealers I've spoken to, with respect to my FLTRI, is the warranty is ok unless I add camshafts to the beast. I've already added the 95" EFI kit (up from 88"), SE mufflers and intake and the warranty was valid when I had the starter replaced ($550 total, I paid $53). The starter fried due to a shorted wire, nothing to do with the performance upgrades. These are just my experiences, and yours may vary.
Cheers |
Chadhargis
| | Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 10:13 am: |
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I think the point of the race kit is to get the bike as it should be, not as the EPA wants it to be. I know it's not going to turn it into a GSXR, but it's going to uncork it a little and let it breathe. It's going to allow it to burn more fuel at the proper ratio and make more power. It's going to sound better too and maybe loose a few pounds if the race muffler is any lighter.
"Race" is a word used mostly for marketing in this case. I don't think anyone racing a Buell is only using the race kit to do it. I think it is what sells merchandise.
I don't think it's going to hamper reliability any. 6000rpm is 6000rpm wether your making 80hp or 85hp. The same amount of friction still exists. There will be more stress on the driveline, but I doubt the race kit adds enough juice to break anything.
The beauty of Buells is that they are "street" bikes not "race" bikes. I've got a friend who has a ZX-6r, and it's a fun bike to ride on the track or a really twisty road, but I wouldn't give you 10 cents for it any other time. He constantly complains about how uncomfortable it is and he primiarly rides his V-Strom because of it.
Yes, the Uly is fine as delivered. It goes fast enough to break every speed limit in the US. It handles better than any 500lb bike I've ever ridden (and some lighter ones). That's what I love about it. If I wanted to go fast in a straight line, I'd still be riding my FJR1300. |
Lowflyer
| | Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 10:24 am: |
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Speculating is what a person does when they don't know for sure. There is nothing wrong with speculating. I have seen no scientific data or bona fide research laid out in here so as far as I am concerned we are all speculating.
My belief that the reliability may (I said "may") suffer is based upon the old saying: "Don't fix it if it ain't broke." I have learned well that lesson in the past. Tinkering begats more tinkering.
Gas = $2.xx per gallon. Burning less gas = spending less $$ on gas = good. Purposely burning more gas when you could burn less gas with the same vehicle = bad.
The cost of the kit is not too much. It is just a value thing for me. WTF am I getting for my $600?
If you increase the capacity of the motor and then use that capacity, it is almost certain that the motor will suffer in the long run. This is why race engines get changed every race, but a similar engine in your family truckster will last for 200k. A supercharged Tacoma? What can I say? I guess that would be useful at altitudes above 10k feet. Without a pressurized cab, or supplemental oxygen that seems sort of like overkill. I would like to hear from you again at 280k miles. That is how far my stock Toyota went before I sold it. It was still running like new.
I think any bike you can sit on comfortably for 200 mi between gas stops is ideal for touring as it sits. Anything less than that is less than ideal for me.
I agree with the duffus comment. That is probably why I can't rationalize the race kit. I leave the racing to the R1s and GSXRs. The Beemers I have played with have been no cause for me to run out and modify my bike.
Pansy or not, a pissed wife = bad. A happy stone gathers no moss. |
Lowflyer
| | Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 11:04 am: |
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1. Bike may be less reliable. Not fact-speculation -- Hence the word "may."
2. Bike burns more gas. Fact or speculation? I've seen reports that suggest the heavy throttle hand causes poor MPG -- Fact. More gas going in means more gas getting burnt.
3. $600 cost. Fact...though you're talking the whole kit and not just a muffler -- Yes the kit as mentioned in the title of this thread.
4. Motor will wear out faster. More speculation...if not complete BS -- Educated guess based upon the notion that the engine components are designed to have the most longevity when operated within certain parameters. Operating the engine outside those parameters will increase the likelihood of component failure. The speculation lies in whether the race kit actually provides the juice to operate outside those parameters.
5. A$$ still gets kicked regularly by any sport bike out there; only now without any excuse or plausible recourse. More speculation? Naw...just BS -- This is known as "humor."
6. Transmission will wear out faster. Specualtion/BS...it seems to be running together now -- See 4.
7. Bike no longer ideal for touring. Speculation and personal opinion -- Based upon assumption of poor gas mileage.
8. Warranty voided? No -- Bonus!
9. Wife pissed about the $600 blown on intangibles Depends on the wife -- Secret savings account. |
Chadhargis
| | Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 01:50 pm: |
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If the race kit isn't for you, it isn't for you, but using your logic, you could get 200k miles out of your Uly if you detuned the engine to Sportster levels. Say about 50hp or so. Choke down the intake and restrict the muffler a bit should give you a bit of low end grunt and have your fuel mileage go up a bit.
Just kidding of course. LOL!
My real reason for wanting to change to the race kit is to sidestep the EPA tree huggers. To me, it's foolish to have a low production motorcycle choked down while we give trucks and old cars a pass (at least that's how it works here in Tennessee with vehicle inspection).
I simply want the engine to perform the way it is supposed to, not the way the United States of the Offended government enviro Nazis say it should run.
Motorcycles are not inspected in Tennessee, so you can do what you want to them. |
Solarbri
| | Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 02:50 pm: |
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"I simply want the engine to perform the way it is supposed to, not the way the United States of the Offended government enviro Nazis say it should run. "
Whoa there Chad, what is an "enviro nazi"? |
Kds1
| | Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 02:59 pm: |
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I don't think that any of you will ever have to worry about the engine unless you don't change the oil often...intake and exhaust mods that create efficiency will make more power and increase the fuel mileage under normal driving situations......
Kevin
www.kdfab.com |
Lowflyer
| | Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 03:10 pm: |
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Solar,
It's like a tree-hugging, granola crunching, lesbo-feminazi only with more emphasis on preserving the environment.
Chad,
You are using a bastardized reversal of my logic. The engine will last a million miles if you pull the bike around on a trailer. 
My point is that to squeeze the motor for more horses is to induce stress that may cause premature failure of some components. I like what you said in your earlier post about the race kit not adding enough juice to do damage. I suspect you are right, but it sure is fun to argue with you guys.
Now look, it turned political.  |
Grimace308
| | Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 03:20 pm: |
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alrighty then. for the novice buell guy, is the 1203cc engine going to lack passing power between 45-75mph, for my rotund (235lbs buck naked) self?
10% more useable torque at moderate rpms asounds like a good idea, but its never as easy as it seems. can a guy get there, installed, for under a grand? |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 03:28 pm: |
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I've never had any trouble passing cars on any motorcycle I've ridden. The Buells do better than most. |
Grimace308
| | Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 03:45 pm: |
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fair enough, let me rephrase that question. with the full hardbag kit, 2 upand a max weight load, are we going to have problems passing or maintaing highway speeds at altitude (4000+ feet) while in the mountains? |
Lovehamr
| | Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 04:44 pm: |
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G308, no. I'm even more rotund than you and I/we have no problems at all. As for the cost on installation of the kit I don't know, I installed mine my self. I did have to have the dealer stick the bike on their machine for the TPS but I did all the mechanical stuff and this is my first Buell. Needless to say mine was well under a grand and I dig it! |
Lowflyer
| | Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 06:12 pm: |
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I think it packs quite a punch without any modification at all. I do have a hankerin' for one of those Drummers though. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 06:25 pm: |
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No worries Grimace. You'll still have plenty of grunt to spare. |
Daves
| | Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 10:02 pm: |
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Grimace,
I sell the full race kit for 589.45(556.71 if you bought the bike from me)
Installation should be 2.5-3 hours of shop time,this would include the TPS reset.
We charge 65.00 per hour so here, 3 hours would be 195 labor. |
Opto
| | Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 03:39 am: |
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Grimace, the 4000ft doesn't matter cause all the vehicles you're passing are also at 4000ft. (Well let's just say that all vehicles there have the same disadvantage)
I originally went for a Drummer 2 years ago (XB12S) for several reasons: to hear the motor and give motorists and pedestrians some idea that I was nearby, I am sure this is a significant safety factor. I really enjoy the sound and it adds feedback to the whole riding experience. The original Drummer has strong bottom end power and doesn't really require a race ecm (and tps reset), and the stock fuel consumption is retained. The actual power gained from a race kit or original Drummer isn't that big of a deal on a 12, it doesn't mean you're going racing or anything, it's just letting the engine breathe better which gives good benefits without busting anything. |
Lowflyer
| | Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 09:08 am: |
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"Grimace, the 4000ft doesn't matter cause all the vehicles you're passing are also at 4000ft. (Well let's just say that all vehicles there have the same disadvantage)"
That is true unless any of the vehicles happen to be turbocharged compact trucks.  |
Chadhargis
| | Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 09:48 am: |
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"Grimace, the 4000ft doesn't matter cause all the vehicles you're passing are also at 4000ft"
Well, actually it does matter. If the car you want to pass is doing 60mph, that's still 60mph no matter what altitude. If you must go from 60mph to say, 80mph to pass, you will probably not pass as swiftly if your FI doesn't correct the mixture a bit. I'm sure the Buell ECU corrects for altitude. It even has an air temp sensor to adjust for hot and cold air, so I'm sure it will adjust for air density.
All that being said, the fuel injection system should compensate well at that altitude and you shouldn't notice any power loss. I ride at that altitude quite frequently, and I've never noticed any of my bikes losing power. My friends who ride carbed bikes do notice a difference though. |
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