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Ravnos
Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 01:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Why doesn't Harley let Buell build an all new engine. Harley has the money since the termination of the VR race program. Something that would be competitve to the Japanese bikes. That way they could race in AMA superbike and prove their worth.
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Dynarider
Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 02:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Hell they arent restricting them, in fact heres a spy photo of the rumored S3 replacement. Plenty of luggage room in this baby.


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Jim_Witt
Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 11:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Greg wrote:

Hell they arent restricting them, in fact heres a spy photo of the rumored S3 replacement. Plenty of luggage room in this baby.


Or ... room in the back for a spare bike in case it breaks down. Hell there's even enough room in the back of that puppy for spare parts, just in case something falls off and/or breaks. What a cool idea.

Thanks for the spy photo,
-JW:>;)
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Rick_A
Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 02:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

What are you talking aboot?

They've built two new engines...the P3 and XB engines. Sheesh.
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Spiderman
Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 03:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

>>>>>>>>What are you talking aboot?

They've built two new engines...the P3 and XB engines. Sheesh.


He wants a water cooled OHC MO FO
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Newfie_Buell
Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 03:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I would say this will happen in due time.
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Rick_A
Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 05:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I think they "prove their worth" already. I don't see the Japanese brands as the universal standard.
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Racerboy
Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 06:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

"I think they "prove their worth" already. I don't see the Japanese brands as the universal standard."

The market does...Just as the market sees Harley's as the cruiser gold standard...

See Ya!

Bob
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Ravnos
Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 06:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I wouldn't call the P3 and the XB motors "all" new. I would like a motor that could make comparable power to the jap or Euro bikes and keep the same handling and earn some respect for the Buell name. We all know they are good bikes but the rest of the world doesn't.

Josh
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Kcbill
Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 07:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Ravnos Buell built the motor they wanted. The sell off of the company to Harley gave them money to build a new motor. They had to use their own money I was told by a zone rep.
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Kcbill
Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 07:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

One more thing Ravnos. From what I have seen the Buells will run with any Jap bike. A good rider can run with or out run them where they were designed to run, thats in the twistys. I have read several articles about how surprised the bike mags were that in the twistys they were nipping at their heels or going around them. Long straight aways are their weakness.
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Rudebike
Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 08:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Another reason is that it doesn't pay for Buells to be wildly popular, as that might cut into Harley sales. Harley makes money on the aftermarket stuff too, something that they do less on the Buell. That's why Bob Dron cut Buell loose. It wasn't so much the integrity of the bike, it was floor space used for less profitable bikes. The sales manager told me this point blank.

Jon
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Racerboy
Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 09:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Jon..."it was floor space used for less profitable bikes. The sales manager told me this point blank."...And I don't blame the H-D dealer one bit...Another reason why this is a marriage made in hell...Geez, it's been said over and over by some smart people and even demonstrated that Buell's should be sold either in a sport bike dealership with other brands or in stand alone dealerships...Trying to make these two so different objects coexist in the same retail environment is really problematic...Some, such as Waterloo, have done it but only because of a really strong personality (Dave)...

See Ya!

Bob
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Mightymouse
Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 10:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Technically, from all I've read in the cycle mags, Buell doesn't build (or design) their engines. Those duties are handled by the Harley engineers residing behind the Sportster engine factory in Milwuakee.

It would be interesting to know what kind of engine the folks in East Troy would come up with, if given a clean slate.
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Anonymous
Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 10:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

>>>>>I was told by a zone rep.
What was this zone reps name?
Cause if he is anything like my Zone rep
LOL my zone rep doesn't know jack about Buell's It is great to have a Ex-Motorhome salesman as your rep.
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Rudebike
Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 10:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I agree that Buells should operate on their own. EVERYBODY seems to be saying that. Does Buell really make enough money to to be kept around by Harley Davidson?
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Davegess
Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 10:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Mighty, HD builds 'em but believe me Buell designs 'em. If you dig through the archives here you will see stories about Gary Valine who was a Buell employee who ran the dyno in East Troy. They did and continue to do major engine design and development work in East Troy.

Technically the engine may be drawn in Milwaukee but it is drawn the way Erik and his team want it drawn.

As far as engine design, Erik likes v twins because they are compact, very narrow. I doubt very much you will see an inline 4 from Buell anytime soon. If Buell does a clean sheet of paper engine it will be every bit as radical as the XB chassis is. It won't follow conventional wisdom and it will work well ON THE STREET. I can't see Buell building a superbike style bike, I think they are committed to street bikes.

For those that say the Erik needs to be in that market because that is what everyone else does...if Erik did what everyone else did he would still working at HD designing nice handling dressers.
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Xb9
Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 11:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Bob said it all. Blows my mind that they try to sell these bikes next to the HD marque. After I bought my XB9R, the mentality of the dealers was a complete turn off. They are not sport bike oriented in the least. I had to try several dealers until I found an acceptable one. And it still doesn't feel right when I walk in. Christ, if your wearing a helmet to the dealership, everyone looks at you like your some kind of freak! If they want bigger sales numbers, they ought to know enough that this is where to start. If they can't figure that out well.....an old salesman's saying......"listen to your customers, they will tell you all you need to know"
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Rudebike
Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 11:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Speaking of street bikes (as opposed to race bikes)....

I love riding my X1. It's a great ride for short or long trips, like to Yosemite (long trip) and back, (with a stop in Escalon for homemade peach milkshakes with real peach). The Altamont pass is a kick in the butt if you're going fast and the cars aren't.

I would never compare my bike to an inline four etc,. I am not alarmed that my bike is what it is nor am I even interested in the offerings of the rest of "bikedom" (except for Ducati, mamamia...).

This bike is the bike for me...not because I don't know any better or because I couldn't afford something else. It's just "it".

Jon the Buelldork
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Dynarider
Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 11:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Buelldork..I love it.:D
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Blake
Posted on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 08:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Hello, my name is Blake, and I'm a Buelldork. :]

"Something that would be competitive to the Japanese bikes. That way they could race in AMA superbike and prove their worth."

My Buell Cyclone doesn't need to "prove its worth" to anyone but me. It does so FAR BEYOND what any UJM repliracer could. Let the herd of inane squids and racer wannabees swarm to the latest greatest repliracers from Japan. You get exactly what you pay for. I personally want much more than "one more of the same as everyone elses." I am grateful that Buell builds the kind of bikes that are "different in every sense." Of course I wouldn't complain much if they resurrect the M2 or something like it in a truss frame style. I do miss the truss frame with its open view of the engine.
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Benm2
Posted on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 08:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Now THAT would be a cool bike. A tube-framed bike with the XB9 engine & the dimensions of the XB9S. I wonder how it would look with that big swingarm, though...
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Tavs
Posted on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 10:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Just a thought, and don't get mad, but has anybody thought the reason that Buell hasn't made the engine people keep asking for (water cooled, 4 valve, etc.) is because they can't? As in they don't have the expertise to do it? Is it easier to improve an existing design than start from clean sheet? Any thoughts?
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Racerboy
Posted on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 11:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Gus...Nice M2, by the way...Great ass end...Rolling your own engine has to be a very expensive project...Evidence the Vrod...Also note where H-D went for assistance with the Vrod engine...Porsche...Aprilia came from nowhere as far as large displacement street bikes and did it with a Rotax engine...Fischer, the new American kid on the block, is said to be going to use the RC51 engine from Big Red...MV is using the 750 from Suzuki and reworking it...So there is plenty of precedent for how not to re-invent the wheel...But I have read over and over that Erik really believes in air cooled engines and heard it from some very reliable folks...I think an air cooled engine could be designed in the 45 degree config that would be suitable if counterbalanced...But then you give up some of that weight advantage of air cooling...No free lunches out there...The biggest issue I have had with my Buells is the long term reliability caused, I think, by the vibes...Sooner or later they just seem to fatigue or work parts loose...Knowing what I know now my future purchases will not make a female on the pillion break out in a big smile and moan...

See Ya!

Bob
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Davegess
Posted on Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 12:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Buell has all the expertise it needs to do any engine it wants. Getting the 100 million plus dollars to do a clean sheet of paper engine would be the problem.

Divide that amount by 100000 bikes sold and you add $1000 to every bike sold just to pay amortization. Now that 100 mill number is low and it will take the better part of a decade for Buell to sell 100000 bikes so that $1000 number is way low.

It is very well understood in the industry that you have a serious price point at $10000 and that every $1000 over that is also significant. Not many folks buying $12000 sport bikes. Jose can probably give use the numbers. How many of the expensive Ducati's sold in the US lst year?

Dave
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Benm2
Posted on Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 07:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Overhead cams do NOT require water cooling. Eric's forced-air cooling could be used to duct air between new heads, with LOTS of small fins, to increase surface area. 80% of combustion heat is lost throught the head. Some extra oil passages & a larger oil pump combined with an oil cooler (ala old GSXR) would help too. Millenium-type cylinders would help, as the iron liners of current units restrict heat flow more than aluminum does. I, personnally, wouldn't want it counterbalanced. If the engine were shorter-stroke than even the xb9, the reciprocating mass would be lower anyway. They smooth out when they go faster, and I like the way they move around a little at idle, its kind of a more visceral way to know something's going on between your legs. The current downdraft setup could be easily modifed to feed four intake valves instead of two, and I was thinking of a belt-drive system for the cams, with at least the intent to use a cam drive setup similar to the existing one, except driving timing belt sprockets. A variable advance setup on the cams would be a nice touch, too, but THAT would add some bucks.

I think that HD DOES restrict Buell, but in ways unlike prevention of a new engine. I think they merely say "here's your budget, and the finished bike must cost less than this." Many great engineering ideas get killed this way, trust me. I've never met Eric (on my to do list), but my guess is he'd love to make a better, NON-conventional racebike and shove it up the AMA's posterior.
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Court
Posted on Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 08:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

>>>>but my guess is he'd love to make a better, NON-conventional racebike and shove it up the AMA's posterior.

I've met him and have only one thing to add.....SIDEWAYS.

Erik has a low toleranace for dishonesty.

Dave Gess could not have worded the engine case (pun intended) any better. $10K is "THE" point in the market. Developing, testing and producing an engine that will provide significant performance increase, while maintaining that price point, is tough. It has been attempted.

Court
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Stormfool
Posted on Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 03:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

A stand alone Buell dealership has great appeal for me for many of the same reasons stated above. I never expected my X-1 to be a UJM or an Italian Sportbike--I could have had any of those (although the Speed-Triple is still mighty appealing) I wanted an aircooled pushrod motor in a tube frame. Period. That it handles better than I could have imagined is a big plus. Yes it vibrates--I like that. Yes it makeslots of mechanical noises--I like that too. The only part I didn't/don't like is that I have to take it to a Harley shop to have it worked on--they simply don't have the committment to excellence inherent in the Buell design in their level of service. They want to screw chrome bits on dressers and choppers. They can't even put on tire fer chrissakes without mangling the alloy rim!
A stand-alone Buell dealership network with a high respect for the machines we prize would go a long ways toward rectifying many of the ills associated with half-assed Harley service!
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José_Quiñones
Posted on Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 07:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)


Quote:

Jose can probably give use the numbers.




I can try, I don't have all the numbers.



I don't know if Aprilias total includes scooters.

If it does not, then they sold 1,949 over $10k, 1000cc V-twin based bikes in 2001 out of 110 dealers.

Buell sold 2,695 651+cc $10k or under bikes in 2001. How many Buell dealers were there in 2001?

The interesting thing would be to compare the number of Aprilia and Buell dealers in 2001 and the average number of bikes sold per dealer.
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José_Quiñones
Posted on Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 07:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

The Harley Dealer network should be Buell's greatest strength, but it's their biggest weakness until the attitude towards Buell changes at the Dealer level.

They KNOW this, they are working on it......
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Racerboy
Posted on Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 08:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

José...You're absolutely right that the H-D dealer network should be their biggest strength...That was the single deciding factor when I purchased my first Buell over a Ducati Monster...But how the heck do you tell people at these shops how to "feel" about a product...I can't wait to meet Dave in Waterloo IA just because he's so Buellish...Frank in KC is the same...Kevin at Widman was/still is (except they're no longer a dealer)...At another dealer here I constantly hear negatives from the shop and then from the owners so guess where the shop attitude comes from?...This negative momentum is just horrible to overcome in any business...Unfortunately it's not the facts that count in business, it's the perception of the facts...Just ask anybody who uses a Mac or used IBM's OS/2 and is also skilled in Windows...The facts don't even come close to explaining why Gill Bates won out in the marketplace...

See Ya!

Bob
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Blake
Posted on Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 09:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

How many of those 6,000 ought Ducati's are 748/998 repliracers? Certainly less than half, I'd think. Most Ducs I see are Monster models.
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Featheredfiend
Posted on Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 11:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

According to several news wires, Harley announced this week the intended units of motorcycles to be manufactured.

Bleustein: "Strong demand for our products gives us confidence in maintaining our production goal of 289,000 Harley-Davidson motorcycles for 2003."


Feathered
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Piggos
Posted on Sunday, January 26, 2003 - 04:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

A tube framed XB9 is an alluring idea, but you wouldn't be able to get much gas in the frame... couple of pints tops I'd think...
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José_Quiñones
Posted on Sunday, January 26, 2003 - 07:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I went through my 2001 BRAG Touring Handbook and found out the following:

There were 732 Harley Davidson Dealers in the U.S. in 2001. Add two more if you want to include Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands.

278 of these were also Buell Dealers in 2001.

Bob want to count the 2002 Touring Handbook?
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Dynarider
Posted on Sunday, January 26, 2003 - 07:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I listed the amount a while back in one of these threads. I believe it was somewhere around 400 were Buell dealers.
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