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Ar15ls1
Posted on Sunday, January 05, 2003 - 11:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I have seen that the power commander is now available for the xb9r. Does anyone have any experience with it. Would it be worth getting over the Buell race ecm. There is a local shop that does custom maps with the power commander. I am just wodering if it would be worth spending the extra money on getting one. I already have the buell race ecm.
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Blake
Posted on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 02:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

No. It is a waste of money. Especially if you already have the Buell race ECM.
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Dynarider
Posted on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 03:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Some of the Harleys benefit from this device, but from everything I have read, heard, etc, the negatives out weigh any possible positives. Some folks swear by them, but then they also seem to buy the race ecm & the commander at the same time so its hard to tell if its just the race ecm that they see any benefit from. But more often than not the power commander causes the bike to run like shit. Even the infamous Cecil had a power commander issue with the one on his ZX12R. Save the money for a couple of track days, you will benefit more from those & enjoy it.
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Jdbuellx1
Posted on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 09:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I had a power commander on my '99 X1 for awhile. Seemed to work good with just the forcewinder and race kit. After I rebuilt the motor with Nallin goodies I zero mapped the PC and it ran rich,
developed a dead spot around 4500 RPM, and my check engine light would come on intermittently, removed the PC all together and all symptoms stopped, runs a hell of a lot better now.
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Spiderman
Posted on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 01:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Actually the power commander was out 6 months before the XB9R was.
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Mls1
Posted on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 02:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I was told Power Commander will void warranties. I guess I can understand that, you could easily burn up the motor by tuning it too lean.

Mark
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Stormfool
Posted on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 02:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I originally installed the the race ECM and exhaust/air filter on my 2000 X1 and noticed an improvement in the midrange, but still had some "notchiness to the throttle input--seemed to like it all the way in accel or deaccel mode/cruising would seem to fluctuate. Also seemed to lack any low end guts.
Added PC without ant special map/ then added Hi Perf Ox sensor (see X1 files for part #) and seemed smoother but no noticable power increase/then had Cyclerama run bike on dyno and create map/NOTICABLE improvement in lowe end throttle response/smoother/no real change at top end/seems to still use a lot of gasoline (40-30mpg depending).
Before and after dyno maps were posted by Kelly on SacBorg a while back/ no change in max output/but considerable bump up in lowend torque/feels smoother overall to me. The money spent might also get you some flow work on the heads, or a cam, or some other goodies that would yield a higher actual output/ but if you want to try smoothing out the throttle reponse or specific tuning on a dyno you can't alter the fuel map with the stock/race ECU.
Could be the negative comments reflect the use of the map loaded into the PC out of the box/there are many to choose from (on the PC Website) andthey can be altered step by step with a laptop computer on the fly.
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Dynarider
Posted on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 04:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I was told Power Commander will void warranties.
==================================================

Not wearing matching underwear & socks will void your warranty depending on which shit head dealer you talk to.
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Nevco1
Posted on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 06:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

No experience with the Power Commander. However, on my X1, I did the race ecm, gutted air box, a V&H can and did a dyno tune. The bike was still running quite lean so we added a Techlusion digital fuel optimizer and it did wonders on the dyno and in the real world. When investigating the alternatives, the race ecm and the DFO were considerably less than the Power Commander and I really like the results.
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Ar15ls1
Posted on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 10:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Thanks for all of the information. I will probably stay away from the power commander for now until I see more real world results on the xb9r's.
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Blake
Posted on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 10:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Stormfool,

Almost certainly, your PCIII solution addressed the symptoms of another problem such as a poor calibration of ECM wrt TPS (TPS Reset/Rezero). The race ECM is after all programed for optimum performance. How can you improve on that?
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Nevco1
Posted on Tuesday, January 07, 2003 - 02:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

AR15...Regardless which ecm you are using. Have the bike run on a dyno for a complete check. If you are running too lean you should start saving for the holed piston surgery. If not, you should be happy. I put the DFO on before the race ecm and it resulted in a surging problem. The race ecm alone still left me very lean. The combination race ecm and DFO produced a bike I can live with and should last forever. Well, at least until the EPA makes me put it back to stock. LOL
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Stormfool
Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 01:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Had the TPS reset by the book (see other's comments above) as I had a feeling it was not right. Also (see other's comments above) bike was running lean at certain points during a full throttle pull on the dyno. As far as "optimum performance" since every engine has slightly different needs due to the slightly different build on the factory floor (and/or internal wear/tolerances) that's a bit like saying "one size fits all". I have the dyno charts to back up the subtle smoothing out of the powerband "wiggles"--"notchiness of throttle" is a bit harder to define. I unplugged/replugged the PC several times when I first was installing it, and tried to run the same bits of road the same way to get a "feel" for it either way, and definitely noticed a difference in that regard.
Regarding "optimum"--Optimum for what--the race track? The street? Lowend power? Top End Pull? Fuell Economy? Drivability? That's why one may wish to tune the "optimum" in my opinion...
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Blake
Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 03:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Optimum, as in best possible power output at all throttle positions for all engine speeds.
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Rick_A
Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 06:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

IMO the Power Commander is a good bet only if you actually have the thing tuned on a Dyno and have custom maps programmed. From what I've heard the maps available on the unit as sold suck. Not all certified shops actually know how to use the software, though...and some don't even how to tune a bike properly to begin with.

The race ECM may not have a map for every situation. With the PC the possibilities are nearly endless. What there needs to be is a fully programmable unit by laptop. I guess then again...just like carbs...there'd be people screwing that up, too. The EPA wouldn't like that either...but race use only?

Unless someone comes up with such a system for Buells I'm sticking to the trusty 'ol CV carb.

A dyno tune is a must. I ran a jet kit in my CV and used the manufacturer's recommendations for my intake/exhaust and it ended up being pretty wrong.
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Apex1
Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 09:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

For what it's worth, I've just read that the yet to be released Force pipe for XB's will require using a Power Commander (for full benefit/ proper operation?). The PC unit (including custom mapping) yields no benefit over Buell's Race ECM for '99 & newer X1's, as evidenced on several dyno runs I've witnessed, even with big bores (up to 1250cc), stage 3 head work, & .536 lift cams.
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Blake
Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 10:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Apex1,

I think the PCIII comment wrt the XB9's was in reference to a Nallinized version with higher compression pistons and ported heads and 1050cc displacement.
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Rick_A
Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 11:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I've heard a lot of claims from people of improved driveability through the power range with some setups using the PCIII.

Seems the Buell race system is pretty damn good, though.
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Dynarider
Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 11:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I've heard a lot of claims from people of improved driveability through the power range with some setups using the PCIII.
==================================================

My opinion on that is it's a lot like a placebo. You paid your money, its supposed to work, so it obviously must. You even trick yourself into believing it actually works. Hell if I spent $300 or whatever the cost is, you damned straight it would work. Who wants to admit they blew that much coin on a useless pile of shit?
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Rick_A
Posted on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 01:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

yeah....kinda like all the $$ I spent on my bike to make it look good and sound pretty. All I got out of all that $$ was a fat midrange...but if I could do it again most of that would've gone into headwork and the rest of the crap could've waited. Oh well. I don't lie about it though. 0 hp increase, 15+ ft-lbs@3500 RPM
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Blake
Posted on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 02:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Whadaya mean 0 hp? +15 FT-LB * 3500 RPM/5252 = +10 HP. That's nothing to sneeze at! I know, you meant peak HP. I'd rather have the midrange.
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Pammy
Posted on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 07:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Well I have a, somewhat, educated opinion on the PCIII(R).
Blake, with all due respect, I think by adding a great flowing(IMHO) force to a bike, the services provided by a PCIII would be beneficial.

Alot of times the PC won't allow us to pick up top end hp but it makes all the ranges up to TE alot smoother and more efficient. That usually translates into a considerably stronger midrange.

Believe me, it's not a placebo. But there are times(rarely) that the PCIII won't help.

Now Blake, don't smite me for this post.....You know how sensitive I am
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Rempss
Posted on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 12:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I have personal experience that differs a bit. Mine was not made with any dyno runs, just a bank of digital meters I had attached to all of the DDFI sensors for a while. Maybe not making the "most" possible power in all ranges, which a dyno would let me know, but the rideability it now has is well worth a few possible HP.

I kept detailed records for about 5000 miles now(100+- pages) of the readings with the PCIII connected and running an adjusted map, running a zero map and then running just the Race ECM (PCIII removed). Also noted the "feel" the bike had with many adjustments, under various conditions.

With the Race ECM only the O2 sensor reads a touch rich under partial throttle, rich under heavy throttle. Seems to be just right throughout the engine range for a normally aspirated engine. I don't know what the PCIII could bring to the party to help. Maybe without the Race ECM more?

See my extended rant right after removal of the PCIII here

Jeff
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Blake
Posted on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 01:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Pammy,

I think we might actually agree. The PCIII is to fuel injected Buells as a bigger/better carburetor is to the normally aspirated Buells. Once you get above a certain flow rate (HP) the stock system may not adequately support the fuel requirement. The characteristics of the engine have changed beyond the ability of the ECM to respond. A longer duration fuel pulse, commanded by the PCIII would then help to make up the difference.
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Dynarider
Posted on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 01:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Wow, Blake actually back pedaled:D

Has Aaron done any dyno tests with a pc on a FI bike with stock exhaust vs slipon vs race kit vs Force type deal?

Or is this still as Blake says "No. It is a waste of money. Especially if you already have the Buell race ECM."
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Nevco1
Posted on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 02:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Thank you Pammy!!!
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Pammy
Posted on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 09:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

That Force exhaust will be hard to beat. It is a great flowing pipe.

Remember you can add the heated O2 sensor with the PC. Adds a bit more stability IMO.
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Stormfool
Posted on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 12:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Un-fricking-believable. What next--Dyna'll go get another Buell, Cecil will trade the Kwacker for a Beemer and...

:rolleyes:
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Blake
Posted on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 02:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Dyna,

You sure are a picky little poster today. Back to the "old Dyna" already? Try looking for the positive, it gives you much better karma.

It's not backpedaling at all. It's called clarification. Read my January 08, 2003 - 10:37 pm post. The race ECM needs no PCIII unless the HP, through engine modifications, climbs above the ECM's ability to supply fuel. That's a good theory anyway. I just made it up.
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Dynarider
Posted on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 07:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Nah, not being picky at all. Just every once in a while I dig the ole Dyna outta the back of the closet, dust him off & go to town for a bit:D

He's going back into his cryogenic chamber for a while, but the beast can be awakened at any time.:)
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Stormfool
Posted on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 01:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Sounds like H.P. Lovecraft's "those whose names shall not be spoken!" or else they rise from their slumbers in the nether world to claim the very souls of those that dare to call upon them... :D
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