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Gainfuloregon
Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2014 - 12:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hey everyone. This winter I had an extra 00' M2 frame lying around so I thought it would be fun to restore it. As of now the bike is 95% done.

I tried to fire the bike up for the first time yesterday. The good news is the bike had good compression and the intake systems seems to be working properly. The engine did not seem to want to fire however. Upon hooking up my timing light, the spark was very inconsistent. When hitting the starter the timing light seemed to go off about 10% of the time. Every once in a while I would see a stretch where the light would go off a good 10 or so times in a row.

My list of possible culprits:

- Ignition Coils (Used)
- Ignition Module (Used)
- Plug wires (Used)
- Fuse (New)
- CPS (New)
- Plugs (New)


I have ruled out the fuse and cam sensor. I tested the resistance on the plug wires and they seemed to fall into the correct range. I have also tested the coils and they too put out what seems to be a correct resistance per the service manual.

My understanding is that the cam sensor sends the signal to the ignition module, which opens up a circuit to allow voltage to the coils, and finally to the plug wires (please correct me if i'm wrong).

Since the wires and coils seem to be behaving normally and the CPS is brand new I am thinking my problem may be the ignition module. Is there a good way to test this? Is there any other likely causes that my be leading to my inconsistent spark? As a side note it is moderately cold out (15 degrees or so) and the bike is garage kept. I didn't think this should effect the spark however.
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Rocket_in_uk
Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2014 - 10:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If you have a strong enough spark you should concentrate on timing it statically and attempt to get it running before relying on a strobe lighting up when cranking to diagnose a fault that might not exist.

Do you have a spark?

No - you have a problem.
Yes - you probably don't.


Rocket in England
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Gainfuloregon
Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2014 - 10:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I tried to play with the timing to increase spark but didn't have much luck.

Your thinking is that if I have at least an intermittent spark, the problem is with the timing?
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Rocket_in_uk
Posted on Monday, February 03, 2014 - 07:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

My thinking is, you said it didn't fire but you have what you believe is an inconsistent spark based on a timing light signal.

So, I would be looking for a good spark at the plugs. A spark I could see with my eyes.

Have you got fuel at the plugs. They're getting wet? If so did you flood it?

You need to get the timing somewhere near at the very least and confirm fuel is getting through and you have a spark. Basics first.


Rocket in England
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Rick_a
Posted on Monday, February 03, 2014 - 07:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Something as simple as a weak battery could also be the culprit. If the battery voltage drops below 9-10V at cranking, replace it.

Make sure the chassis grounds and electrical connections are clean and tight.

I agree with the above, basics first.

An bad ignition module usually won't work at all when dead, unless a connection is bad or a wire is broken somewhere causing intermittent ignition due to vibration.

Once it is at least statically timed it should fire up.
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Buell_bert
Posted on Monday, February 03, 2014 - 09:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hey I agree, I had problems with fouling plugs, hard starting and crappy spark until I bought a new battery and I bought the biggest cca battery with the agm style. I paid about a 100 bucks but have had great luck since. Remember to clean the + and - cables on both ends.
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Buell_bert
Posted on Monday, February 03, 2014 - 09:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yea I think it is something like a weak or marginal battery lets the voltage drop to low during the cranking phase.
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Rocket_in_uk
Posted on Monday, February 03, 2014 - 08:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yes battery is a defo area to consider. If you have access to a 12v booster pack or a good battery and jump leads, you might do well to try starting it with one of these hooked up.

After winter lay up my S1W will sometimes need my Snap-On booster to give it that bit extra. In your case I'd likely be using new NGK plugs too. Once you get it running, and timed, it'll be right every time once it;'s started regularly.

Rocket in England
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Buelltours
Posted on Monday, February 03, 2014 - 09:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Make sure you are using the right timing cup. there is a different one for fuel injection and for Carb
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Gainfuloregon
Posted on Monday, February 03, 2014 - 11:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks for the quick replies guys. I let the battery charge while I was at work today. I hit the starter and the engine was turning over great but once again not firing. For the heck of it I also connected jumpers to the battery on my truck but that did not seem to help. At this point I do not believe the battery to be the culprit.

I also checked the plugs to see if there were signs of fuel and all looked well. I am just not getting a reliable spark.

I have also checked the chassis grounds and made sure I had good connections. The cables are all new so there is no corrosion yet.

In regards to the proper timing cup being used, I did see this engine running prior to purchasing it so it seems that the cup is correct. I also verified the P/N of the timing plate with the parts manual.

My buddy has a spare ignition coil that I plan to borrow later this week in order to rule that out as the problem.

Is there anything else that could kill the ignition signal? The only sensor on the bike I can think of would be the kickstand sensor but in neutral that should not matter. Are there any other sensors that I am over looking that may be causing problems?

As another side note I do not have any of the blinkers, the tail light, or brake light hooked up yet. There isn't some kind of a safety feature that will kill the bike if our brake / tail lights are out I would assume...

Any other ideas would be appreciated. At this point i'm stumped.
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Two_seasons
Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2014 - 07:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Side stand wires may not be properly tied together. And BankAngleSensor may be faulty.

You may also want to clean up the fuse/relay block. It corrodes!

American Sport Bike has Buell parts you may need.
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Rocket_in_uk
Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2014 - 08:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I am just not getting a reliable spark.

I can't follow what you mean when you say reliable spark.

Are you saying the spark is intermittent (because of the timing light signal previously perhaps?) and you can see it so at the plugs when testing or not?

If you have an intermittent spark you need to ascertain two things. If the spark is consistent when cranking the motor, and the strength of the spark.

If the spark appears to be there at every stroke of the cylinder (easy to know) and the spark is strong, you either have a timing issue (unlikely as some fuel will ignite at some point when cranking and at the very least give you a backfire) or no fuel.

If the spark is weak then you have an issue likely with the coil. If the spark is intermittent (doubtful as it still might have at the very least fired, or backfired) you might have a problem where the voltage is dropping out especially when cranking (as the starter motor is taking the amps away thus the coil is not getting enough juice)

Rocket in England
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Rocket_in_uk
Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2014 - 08:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Sorry, I should add.

Confirm you DO have fuel getting to the plugs, and if so make sure the plugs are good. I can't tell you how many plug issues I've had years ago when trying for the best. No starting / poor starting / one cylinder starting, I've only had reliability for a decade now I suppose, by using NGK's. All the others, even the special ones, are junk. Again I emphasise use new NGK plugs.

Lastly you MUST static time this engine as close to bang on as you can, but do not rule out the strength of the spark if you have any sort of spark at all.

Sticking to the very basics might seem like you're getting nowhere but until you make certain the foundations are there, the possibilty of wondering of on a tangent looking to deep will only serve to waste much of your time if nothing else.

DO THE BASICS : )


Rocket in England
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Buell_bert
Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2014 - 09:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

As an add on unless you are using a 2001 or 2002 wiring harness there will be NO bank angle sensor. 1999 or 2000 M2's had none.
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Buell_bert
Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2014 - 09:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Also coils can sometimes test good on resistance but breakdown under high voltage or as they heat up or cool down. Kind of like meggering windings.
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Gainfuloregon
Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2014 - 07:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Buell_bert you are correct, no bank angle sensor on the 00' model.

I think I may have found the problem however. I pulled the timing plate and trigger rotor and found interference. There is actually a groove cut ~ .020" deep into the back of the plate. Yes the rotor cup was seated properly. The edge however protrudes past the ledge the timing plate is seated on.

I had purchased this engine used off eBay so I am not sure the history of it. I am curious if the previous owner had the correct cams in place. Since the cam seats flush against the inside surface of the gearbox cover the only thing that makes sense to me is that the cam shaft is longer than it was designed to be for whatever reason. Either that or the gear (which I am imagining is press fit into plate flush against a shoulder) had shifted backwards somehow.

I guess at this point I will have to pull the rockerbox and gearbox cover to find out what's inside...
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Gainfuloregon
Posted on Saturday, February 08, 2014 - 07:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If anyone was curious, I was able to figure out what the problems was.

I put a spacer behind the timing plate, eliminating the interference. Immediately after I started getting the proper spark.

I pulled the gearbox cover to try to figure out why the rotor trigger was sticking out too far. For whatever reason the previous owner did not have a bushing pressed into the gearbox cover for this cam.
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Oldog
Posted on Sunday, February 09, 2014 - 12:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

For whatever reason the previous owner did not have a bushing pressed into the gearbox cover for this cam.


Yeoww! good catch!}
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Buell_bert
Posted on Sunday, February 09, 2014 - 01:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I am so glad you were able to fix this. GREAT JOB.
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Rocket_in_uk
Posted on Sunday, February 09, 2014 - 08:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yep well caught. Such hidden gems always catch even the best mechanics out from time to time.

My industry is littered with tales and stories of mechanics searching for massive problems caused by no more than a tiny glitch you'd never think to even look for.

So it runs! Good stuff.


Rocket in England
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Jolly
Posted on Sunday, February 09, 2014 - 08:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Do you have a photo of the damage and the missing piece? I like to to see photos to help cement the issue into my brain.... Recall for later moments when and if I need it!

Great job on the fix!!
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Natexlh1000
Posted on Sunday, February 09, 2014 - 06:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Wait. the cam was floating back and forth?
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Gainfuloregon
Posted on Sunday, February 09, 2014 - 07:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The cam was still constrained (was not walking in and out by any means). The bushing on the inside of the gearbox wasn't there so the tolerance stack wasn't correct. It was sticking out further than it should.

I'll have to snap a picture next time i'm able to work on her.
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