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Capital_g
Posted on Monday, August 26, 2013 - 07:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

1999 X1 - running like a champ last time I rode it.. Filled it up with ethanol free gas, rode it the last 5 miles home without issue. Now I can't get it started.
Thinking it may be bad gas I drained it and refilled without luck... Ran the battery down with only an occasional time sounding like it might crank. THe plugs look dry like it may be a fuel issue? The spark is fine.
I fiddled with the idle knob so much I screwed it out to far but I think I know how it goes back. BTW- the service manual shows it to be an "idle adjustment screw"....
The inline filter is not clogged but I plan to replace it due to age.
I hit it with a shot of starting fluid and it ran for a second or so, although very roughly.
Ideas?
PS - the fuel pump runs when key is turned on as it should.
TIA
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Ocbueller
Posted on Monday, August 26, 2013 - 07:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Clean Plugs, fully charged battery. No, or little throttle.
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Azrael_cervale
Posted on Monday, August 26, 2013 - 07:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I'm guessing clogged injectors and now the idle needs to be reset. Personally I'd pull the injector manifold but keep it connected and see if it sprays fuel, this will be messy of course. Someone else may have a better way to test them.
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Capital_g
Posted on Monday, August 26, 2013 - 08:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks for the suggestions. Battery is on charger and the plugs were replaced less than 250 miles ago.

When you say reset the idle are you talking about the hand adjustment or something else?

I did try to find out how to set the hand adjustment I screwed up but can't find anything that shows a starting point like - "screw al the way in and then back out 5 turns" etc....
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Akbuell
Posted on Monday, August 26, 2013 - 08:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Given your current situation, I would charge the battery first. Then pull the plugs and confirm good spark.

That done, take a look at the cam position sensor, and confirm no apparent heat (i.e. pre-fail or fail situation) damage. They do fail, and good spark w/a bad cps can give you spark that is not in sync with the pistons.

When my X-1 gets reluctant to start, a TPS reset cures the problem. AFAIK, the only way to get a ballpark idle setting is with electronic aids like ECMSpy, or Scanalyzer, and set the TPS to 4.6-5 deg. That will allow the engine to start; final setting to 1050rpm is done after the engine is warm.

Wouldn't hurt to check the injectors.

Hope this helps, Dave
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Capital_g
Posted on Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - 06:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Will give it another shot this weekend. Wish me luck!
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Kalali
Posted on Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - 08:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Since this happened all of a sudden, you need to first rule out fuses and relays and all the grounds - block under the seat and the strap on the swing arm. As for the idle setting, start with the throttle body fully closed and open it just enough to maintain a decent idle. Use manual throttle if needed until you get the TPS reset. Injectors or filters normally degrade gradually over time.
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Akbuell
Posted on Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - 03:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Were I in your situation, I would charge the battery, then make sure the idle adj cable was in proper working order. I'm not sure from you post if it came 'undone' or is just out of adjustment.

Pull and reinsert all of the relays and fuses, 3-4 times. Should remove any surface corrosion if present.

Do a proper TPS reset. The bike should start if no other problems.

FWIW, your question about a base setting for idle led me to check my bike w/ECMSpy. A voltage output from the TPS to the ECM of 1.2V-1.6V should put you in the ballpark.

Hope this helps, Dave
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Capital_g
Posted on Wednesday, August 28, 2013 - 07:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Good stuff guys, thanks a bunch. I will check the easy stuff first. The idle adjustment came completely out after I turned it too many times...
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Capital_g
Posted on Saturday, August 31, 2013 - 06:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

While poking around last night I found a ground wire(s) broken. Right under the tank at the back there are 2 wires that are crimped into a connector that goes under a bolt, and the connector broke...
From the service manual I believe it is a ground for the left hand controls. I have the charger on the battery, just waiting for morning to get her so I can see if she'll fire up.
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Kalali
Posted on Saturday, August 31, 2013 - 07:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"...check all the grounds - block under the seat..."

Live and learn. Hope it fixes your issue.
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Capital_g
Posted on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 09:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Still no luck. Was going to test fuel pump while waiting on ECM cable but the manual says the bike has to be running...
Put stock ECM back in and still no love.
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Jolly
Posted on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 09:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I recently had two faulty relays that I was swapping back and forth on my moto guzzi, not knowing that both of them were bad. I spent an extra day trouble shooting that one! the other relay would work in its intended function, but it would not carry the load of the fuel pump, so I thought it was good, but when plugged in for fuel pump, it would fail also, put it back where it was originally, and it worked fine so I was convinced it was a good relay that I was pulling to substitute to try and get fuel pump working....and looked at all kinds of other issues including convincing myself that I had a bad fuel pump, but then that worked fine with 12 volts hooked up... any chance its something as simple as that?
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Two_seasons
Posted on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 10:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Did you swap the relays around inside the fuse box under the seat? Do it.

Also, pull your connector behind the flyscreen that goes to your ignition switch and jumper out two pins, the red wire and the red/black wire. If you then have headlight and dash lights, make sure you see the neutral light, then tap the starter.

Those two wires, the red one goes to the ignition fuse (20A and located in the middle top or position 4 in the manual) and the red/black one goes to the master circuit breaker (30A and located under the seat, the same spot Kalali suggested you check).

You either have 1.) a broken wire in this circuit, power or ground 2.) a blown 20A ignition fuse 3.) a faulty 30A master circuit breaker.

If, when you jumper the two pin at the ignition switch connector, and get nothing, you are either not getting power to the 20A ignition fuse or the 30A master circuit breaker.

Even though your wiring LOOKS INTACT, sometimes wiring breaks inside the insulation and cuts the power or ground to that circuit. Sometimes it may have enough wire strands to continue to supply, sometimes it continues to break or it isn't enough strands, and acts like a fuse at that point, and burns open the remaining wire strands.

I'm very interested in your outcome. Keep us posted.
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Capital_g
Posted on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 11:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I will check the relays again but it my mind since the lights are all lit and the bike turns over/fires , fuel pump runs and occasionally acts like it wants to start doesn't this rule out electrical exempt maybe a weak ground? In my mind a relay is all or nothing?
Thanks again.
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Akbuell
Posted on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 12:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Relays generally are all or nothing, but not always. They can 'close' until a full load is put on them, then they can 'chatter', opening and closing rapidly, or just open and stay open. Substituting a known good one is the simple way to check.

As to the fuel pump, if you have the measuring equipment, you should be able to eliminate it as a problem in a no start situation. With ign on and engine not running, you should see something in the area of 49PSI. With the engine cranking over, the pressure should stay about there, or in the 46-53PSI limit specified in the service manual.

Pls let us know how it goes. Dave
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Two_seasons
Posted on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 12:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

OK then.

Maybe your ignition switch is not sound. Have you felt your ignition switch when it's running, before I mean, as now it won't stay that way?

Jumper what I said above behind the flyscreen and report back.

Also, make sure your idle adjust screw is at least 1/3 the way screwed in before you try again to start it.
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Capital_g
Posted on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 01:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Tried the switch jumper, no difference. Will try fuel pressure later.

(Message edited by Capital_g on September 02, 2013)
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Kalali
Posted on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 07:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Describe again what is the bike doing. Do you hear the fuel pump prime, you have spark, plugs get wet/smell gas and still does not fire up? Do you keep the throttle open a little when pushing the starter button?
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Jolly
Posted on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 08:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

+1 to Akbuell - my relay problem was that it would carry the load of lights etc, but when it was moved over the fuel pump circuit it would click on (closed) then as soon as the load of the fuel pump hit, it would click off (open) immediately, so the relay would carry low load but not heavy load like the fuel pump.
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Capital_g
Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2013 - 07:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Kalali- I haves spark, the fuel pump wines but the plugs do look too dry, occasionally the engine "hits" a time or two like it is going to start but doesn't. Starting fluid doesn't seem to change much either. I ordered new relays last night.
Fuel pressure test with a gauge tonight after work.
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Capital_g
Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2013 - 08:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Fuel pressure gauge hardly moves when fuel pump is running and when the engine is turning over. Will try the new relays when the arrive but looks like a new fuel pump will be on on the list soon.
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Capital_g
Posted on Monday, September 09, 2013 - 08:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

New relays, still no fuel pressure. Time for a new pump and seals I guess...
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Harleyelf
Posted on Monday, September 09, 2013 - 09:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

There was a technically rich but poorly written series of posts recently about diagnosing and repairing fuel pumps. Do a search.
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Two_seasons
Posted on Tuesday, September 10, 2013 - 04:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

At the top of this page, you'll see "Google Badweb". This is what Harleyelf is referring to.

Within the Google Badweb search, you can be as precise as you want. Personally, I use as few words as possible.
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Capital_g
Posted on Thursday, September 19, 2013 - 06:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I hate it when I do a search and folks never posted the solution to their issue so....
Replaced the fuel pressure regulator and fuel pump and it fired right up.. I suspect it was just the regulator that was bad because the rubber o rings looked shot, but I went ahead and replaced the pump while in there. (The folks at fuelpumps.net were great.)The old pump still primed and made the correct sound when the key was turned on.
Also did a TPS reset and replaced the fuel filter and fuel lines. Bought the OE type hose connectors 'cause i hate the worm gear type; those suckers are $3.00 bucks apiece. Ouch.
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Steveford
Posted on Thursday, September 19, 2013 - 06:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Good deal.
What part numbers did you use? It never hurts to have a good source for things like this.

(Message edited by SteveFord on September 19, 2013)
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Capital_g
Posted on Friday, September 20, 2013 - 07:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Pump - Walbro 521 (Fuel-pumps.net)
Regulator -PO166.K (Dealer)
Hose clamps -Q0115.0 (Dealer)
In Line Fuel Filter - Napa - 3032
Mesh Filter for fuel pump (because the one that came with it was huge) PO806.K (Dealer)
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Steveford
Posted on Saturday, September 21, 2013 - 06:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks!
It's time to start a cross reference thread to get everything in one easy to access spot.
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