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Buell Forum » Knowledge Vault (tech, parts, apparel, & accessories topics) » Troubleshooting (Poor Starting/Running/Handling/Ride Issues) » Archive through July 18, 2011 » X1 fires then cuts out immediatly « Previous Next »

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Rockabilly
Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2011 - 08:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I'm new to working on injected bikes so go easy on me. 1999 Buell X1 Lightning. K+N filter, Wileyco end can. Things i've tried already- new spark plugs, new intake manifold seals, new o rings on injectors. swapped fuel pump, O2 sensor and ECM (not new parts). I'm just learning about the ecmspy but i can't see anything obvious wrong. Do the readings look normal to you guys? Any suggestions where to go from here would be greatly appreciated.





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Akbuell
Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2011 - 09:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

At first blush, battery voltage. These bikes can be sensitive to low volts, some more than others.

Exactly what was the bike doing that caused you problems at the start? Dave
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Akbuell
Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2011 - 12:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

A few more thoughts:

While getting battery volts back to where they should be, and confirming that the battery is good, now would be the time to confirm that your battery cable connections (both ends) are bright, clean, and tight.

If the problem persists, try swapping the relays one for the other. If your IGN relay is in a pre-fail mode, it can cause problems. While in there, check the relay and fuse blades for corrosion. A clean-up may be in order. And don't forget to check the ECU plug-ins for corrosion. Members here have reported solving various problems with an 'electrical cleaning'.

Please let us know how it goes, Dave
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Rockabilly
Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2011 - 05:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

thanks guys. it's night time here now so i'll check all the connections that you suggested tomorrow.
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Buellisticx1
Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2011 - 08:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The TPS % 0 & TPS º 0 readings are wrong, it's not normal. This could be the main problema. TPS is set to approx 5 degrees or 5.6%. There is something wrong with the Throttle Position Sensor.

Throttle (volt) is an absolute reading. There is a Throttle Position Sensor potentiometer (pot) on the end of the throttle “butterfly” shaft, and the ECM is reading a voltage that varies depending upon the position of that pot.
Depending upon how the shaft is attached to the pot, and the calibration of the pot itself, every throttle body will display a slightly different voltage when the butterfly is at any given position. This is why a TPS reset is mandatory any time the throttle body or Throttle Position Sensor is removed or changed.

Throttle position and Throttle (%) are positions relative to the zero point for the throttle butterfly. The purpose of a TPS reset is to tell the ECM what voltage is at the pot when the butterfly is completely closed (i.e., 0% open). The ECM is then capable of calculating the exact throttle position based on the offset voltage from the absolute voltage reading that it read when the butterfly was fully closed. Throttle position is the measure of the angle (degrees) that the throttle butterfly open between 0 and 85.

Try to do a TPS reset.
The first step of performing a TPS reset is to back the throttle stop screw off until it no longer is touching the stop on the butterfly shaft. The easiest way to check if the throttle stop is no longer engaged is to turn the throttle grip to zero and force it there gently. If when you start to open it, you can feel it gently sticking, this means that the butterfly is wedging in the throttle body and you have achieved absolute closure. Then back it out at least 1 turn. Seat the butterfly by turning the throttle backwards slightly. When you open the throttle, it should stick very slightly if you've done it right. Now zero the TPS.

With the throttle screw backed off completely select the Diagnostics tab on ECMSpy and at the bottom left of the screen "Functions select TPS Reset".

Wind in the idle adjust screw until the TPS is set to approx 4.6 degrees or 5.1% . This should be approximately correct for tick over.

Let us know how it goes.
Regards.


(Message edited by buellisticx1 on February 13, 2011)
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Rockabilly
Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2011 - 07:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Ok guys. so i did a propper TPS reset- i had forgotten to screw in the idle screw. so the bike idles now but is lumpy and slow throttle response. I tried swapping the relays as Akbuell suggested and checked the fuses for corrosion- (none detected). I'm posting an updated ecmspy display captured while the bike is running. Unless you guys can see anything wrong with it I think i'll just have to go through every wire and connection and clean and wiggle test. thanks again for the help.


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Akbuell
Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2011 - 10:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Excellent! Part way there, and some possible suspects eliminated. Have you bypassed the sidestand switch?
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Buellisticx1
Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2011 - 01:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Everything appears to be okay except the idle rpm "844 rpm is too much low".
Try to set the idle after the Engine is warmed up fully should be set at around 1000/1050 rpm.

Also you must to do an AFV reset to 100.

If all this still fails, I'm guessing that your stock ECM version (firmware) " BUEJA 120" isn't flowing enough fuel for your particular setup, and the motor is running lean. It's hard to tell from over here, but I know that the Buell race ECM does a pretty good job compensating for engine modifications, but your particular setup sounds like you're running on the lean side.

You can try load the Race EEprom "BUEKA 210" on your stock ECM with ECMSPY to see how it goes or helps. And VERY IMPORTANT always backup the ECM the first time you connect to your Buell, Save this file and back it up to a safe location. This file is essential if anything goes wrong and you need to recover your ECM.

You can just copy a race ecm's eeprom onto your stock ecm. Much cheaper than the $200+ for a new ecm.

Your problems will probably might go away. Just a thought.
Hard to diagnose a bike over the internet.......

You will need to enable professional mode in ECMSPY.

If you want email me to buellisticx1@yahoo.es and I'll send you a Race Eeprom Text file
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Harleyelf
Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2011 - 09:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Cam Position Sensor can cause mystery cut-out. Mine was giving too many weak sparks and the engine wouldn't turn over more than once or twice before abruptly stopping.
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Rockabilly
Posted on Monday, February 14, 2011 - 03:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Buellisticx- pm sent.

Harleyf- is it easy to diagnose a problem with the Cam Position Sensor?- i'll do a search on the site anyway. thanks
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Rockabilly
Posted on Monday, February 14, 2011 - 03:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Also, i think the O2 sensor should be showing up as a third light in the Engine Status section of the ecmspy. am i right? i've checked the connections and there's no chaffing on the wires. also tried a different sensor(used).
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Buellisticx1
Posted on Monday, February 14, 2011 - 10:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hello,
If you monitor O2 sensor voltage with ECMSPY you can watch if it works properly, after the Engine is warmed up around 80º it should bounces between .2 and .7 Volts or so.

The ECM has two modes of operation: Open Loop and Closed loop. Closed loop operation is when the injector duration is determined from the A/F ratio obtained from the rear cylinder O2 sensor.

Open loop operation is used at idle for Tube frame Buells, at high speed/load conditions (i.e., when accelerating) at throttle settings above 30%, whenever the throttle isn’t relatively steady state, and whenever the engine isn’t running at normal operating temperature for all Buell DDFI engines.
The engine runs in open loop any time the ECM isn’t operating in closed loop operation.So Tube frame Buells FI system there are not closed loop in the idle area so there is no feedback loop from the O2 sensor.

One other thought: Have you ever gotten your AFV read after taking the bike for a ride learning mode?.

The AFV is determined during a subset of closed loop operation, but the correction is only applied to the fuel mixture during open loop operation. The AFV will be learned when the bike is operated at steady state engine speeds between 2500 and 3000 rpm for an X1, under a steady light load for 5 to 8 minutes, at full operating temperature. Throttle rate change or changing loads will kick the system out of AFV learn mode.

Any fluctuation in AFV tells you whether you are running rich or lean. Bad seals, exhaust leak, cracked header, etc., all will show up as low AFV (<100) pointing to a lean mixture.

Race eeprom text file and info sent.

Very important read the ECMSPY manual!

Regards.
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Kalali
Posted on Monday, February 14, 2011 - 11:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I would still like to hear a better description of the symptoms. All you said was it fires and cuts out immediately. A lot of bikes (including mine) do that at cold start if I don't hold the throttle cracked for a few seconds. Otherwise the bike runs perfectly when warmed up. I am also willing to bet I could never get the bike to idle if I removed the idle screw/cable. So my point is try to be a bit more specific so you don't chase the wrong cause. That been said, everything everyone has suggested will definitely help solve the problems that you would have sooner or later but not necessarily the immediate issue at hand.
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Rockabilly
Posted on Monday, February 21, 2011 - 11:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Update: i've been trying all the things you guys suggested. the AVF is at 100 now but there does seem to be something wrong with the O2 sensor as its not moving. I noticed some people on here have had trouble with the ignition switch. when the bike has been running for one or two minutes the wires leading from the switch become quite warm. there is a 3 pin connector between the switch and the harness. how do i check it with a multimeter? i am getting a high resistance between some of the terminals.
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Sparky
Posted on Monday, February 21, 2011 - 01:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

With the meter set on DC volts, you can try putting the + lead on the 12V hot terminal and the - lead on the switched contact. There should be as few millivolts as possible.

If there is more than one volt then the switch contacts or the wire's crimp on its contact is dirty or loose or otherwise defective and needs to be recrimped.

I doubt that the switch can be rebuilt, so it may have to be replaced. If it can be rebuilt, perhaps others can chime in with a fix.
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Harleyelf
Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2011 - 11:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I checked my Cam Position Sensor by the Flintstones method: Raise the rear wheel, pull the spark plugs and headlamp fuse, attach the plug wires to the plugs, and put the bike in high gear. Turn the key to "on". Rotate the wheel and see if you get one fat blue spark per engine cycle. I had lots of weak yellow sparks every revolution.
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Rockabilly
Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 03:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Sparky- i checked the switch voltage like you said and it seems ok. also pulled the switch apart for a look.
Harleylf- i like the sound of that Flintstones method, ha. I'll give it a go as soon as i can.
thanks guys
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