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Fotoguzzi
Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 12:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I don't want to rely on front brake in the rain.. How do I get better braking from the rear with good feel?
right now it reminds me of my KLR, got to stand up on it for it to work at all. then it skids.
XB12 XT
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Onespeedpaul
Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 09:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yeah, you **do** want to rely mostly on your front brake in the rain....

No matter what motorcycle (or car for that matter) caliper or rotor or pads you swap out, the rear wheel will always barely slow you down or skid easily. there is no way around that, science is REAL.
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Fotoguzzi
Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 09:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

the rear brake on my Lemans works way better, that's Guzzi science I guess.
and I do use front mostly just want some feel..
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Trojan
Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 10:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

One of the reasons your Guzzi rear works better is that the Guzzi is long and low (like a Harley in fact), so rear brake action is more effective. On a bike with more sporty geometry the rear brake will not be so effective and is really only there for settling the bike in corners and to satisfy the law makers.

Braking really should be around 75% front 25% rear even in wet weather. In perfectly dry weather I almost never use the rear brake at all except for walking speed manoevres.
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Froggy
Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 11:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Just use the brake more, it will improve in feel as it breaks in. If the previous owner didn't use it much there is probably crap built up on the rotor that will slowly burn off.

Flushing the brake fluid can help too.
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Hughlysses
Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 11:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I'm a fan of this technique; it helps avoid a low-speed lock-up of the front wheel (and guaranteed crash) due to oil, grease, etc. which are often found in a lot of the spots you have to stop:

http://www.msgroup.org/Tip.aspx?Num=030


quote:

An ideal stop goes something like this:

•You apply both brakes gradually and with almost equal force for the first phase of your braking.


• The weight will transfer forwards as the front suspension compresses, and your arms bend.


• There's now more weight on the front (up to 100% if you're braking at 1g - and modern road bikes can brake at up to 1.2g).


• You now let off most - or all - of the rear brake and increase pressure on the front, which now has most or all of the grip. This middle phase of braking can be 100%:0% - if it is less than 85% Front, you probably aren't braking near your bike's limits.


• The bike slows and the forces you are exerting through the brakes and tires diminish (the energy in the bike is proportional to the square of your speed).


• The front begins to rise back up on its suspension.

[If it's an emergency, you now breath a sigh of relief and a small prayer of thanks].

• You taper off on the front brake - to prevent a slow speed lock up - and increase the rear brake pressure once more.


• Even stopping from 100mph, the last 5mph is slow riding, and you should only use the rear brake for slow riding. So you do the final phase of stopping 0% Front and 100% rear.


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Onespeedpaul
Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 11:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

As you may well know, there are alot of variables in your braking system...if better "feel" is what you seek (keep in mind it will still do the same thing as before since it is still mounted to the rear wheel), you're going to have to experiment with different combinations of pads/calipers/master cyls/fluids/ even lines (right off hand, i would suggest check and see if your guzzi has a rear rubber line instead of braided? possibly could be the difference in how you perceive the guzzi rear 'working better" than your buell...I personally prefer a rear rubber line over braided...

@trojan, I would love it for you to be the one to finally prove that removing your rear brake would help you get a round a track faster than with...good luck with that BTW....(sarcasm intended)

(Message edited by onespeedpaul on September 05, 2013)

(Message edited by onespeedpaul on September 05, 2013)
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Teeps
Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 12:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Fotoguzzi Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2013
I don't want to rely on front brake in the rain..

How do I get better braking from the rear with good feel?


Larger rear rotor, dual pot or more caliper, different mastercylinder, or a longer brake lever come to mind.
I've heard (here on badweb) of dual pot calipers being fitted to the rear of the XB model. But I can't find the thread.
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Fotoguzzi
Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 12:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Lemans has braided steel lines but the real difference is probably it being a Brembo dual piston.
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Trojan
Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 12:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

@trojan, I would love it for you to be the one to finally prove that removing your rear brake would help you get a round a track faster than with...good luck with that BTW....(sarcasm intended)

I'm not a fast track rider so it wouldn't much difference to my lap times if you disconnected both brakes!.


However.....When we raced our Buells back in 2003-2006 I was astute enough to realise this and employed decent riders instead : ) The rear brake was absolutely useless on our bike and wouldn't lock the rear wheel if you stood on it. Phil Read Jr (a pretty fast rider by any measure) had no problem lapping extremely fast like that, and never used the rear brake all year. It was only there to satisfy the scrutineers and at the end of the season the rear pads were like new (in contrast, front pads were chaged every other meeting and we were using Yamaha R1 brake callipers!): )



Different riders have different techniques. Some use a lot of rear brake (Nicky Hayden) other use pretty much none (Valentino Rossi) and some use both to a lesser or greater degree.

The back brake in racing and on track is NOt used to slow you down. if you are resorting to that then you are in trouble!

The rear brake is used on track to either set the bike up for a corner, make the back step out or simply to make the bike stand up a fraction or adjust the turn in, in other words it is used as a tool to 'ride' the bike rather than to stop it.

Basic geometry of different bikes will have a huge bearing on the power of the back brake, as will the brake design of course. The steeper your steering angle and the shorter the wheelbase the more likely the bike tries to rotate around the front wheel spindle when you apply the front brake. Longer/lower bikes just push the front along like a snow plough. On a shorter bike the rear brake has much less effect generally than on a longer and lower one.
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Onespeedpaul
Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 12:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

search 'brembo hidden caliper' for info on swapping a brembo dual piston caliper...all you can do is try it and see if it makes it do what you want/expect it to....
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Onespeedpaul
Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 12:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

@trojan, well there you go, you said it yourself, it does actually have **some** other purpose (setting up for a turn etc) than to pass scrutineers/make the lawmakers happy.., and please let's agree that we are saying the same thing, that a rear brake is not remotely as efficient at slowing any 2/4 wheeled as the front...
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Teeps
Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 12:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Fotoguzzi Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2013
Lemans has braided steel lines

As does the Buell.
And, depending on the year of the Lemans it has combined braking on the rear brake, too... And, probably has nearly a foot longer wheel base than the Buell

Close to 30k miles on my Ulysses and the rear pads still have 75% or more left.
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Fotoguzzi
Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 01:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

4.5 inches to be exact not a foot.
brakes are not linked on V11 models,
fyi trail 4"
and rake 25*
uly specs are 4.8" trail 22*
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Sifo
Posted on Saturday, September 07, 2013 - 08:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I've never really understood the gripes/praise for the Buell braking system. The front seems to get all kinds of praise, but honestly, mine is adequate, not much more. As I understood it, the whole thing isn't about better braking, but reducing unsprung weight (as well as total wight). I suppose the ZTL2 caliper may be better than the original, but I've certainly ridden other bikes that have brakes that put my XB's front brake to shame.

I tested the rear on mine today, just to see how hard it is to lock it up. It locks up just fine with no help from the front. I sure wouldn't want to rely on the rear only though. With the front brake shifting the weight onto the front wheel, there's more than enough brake available at the rear.

Am I the only one with this experience?
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Dynosaur
Posted on Friday, September 13, 2013 - 04:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I cleaned the piston with a toothbrush and WD40 and cleaned and lightly greased the sliders (with red rubber grease) on my rear caliper then fitted EBC HH pads and it works a treat.

Trojan is ex-Police so I am surprised he is not quoting the mythical 'Blue Book' which, for riding on the road, encourages you to use the back brake to stabilise the bike.
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Trojan
Posted on Friday, September 13, 2013 - 05:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Trojan is ex-Police so I am surprised he is not quoting the mythical 'Blue Book' which, for riding on the road, encourages you to use the back brake to stabilise the bike.

That was the way I was taught to ride in the police, and of course that is great for passing the course. However, you tend to do what is most comfortable for you once you pass the test : ) Even on a fully loaded police bike I rarely used the back brake unless in slow moving traffic/convoy to help balance. Once up to 'speed' I used the front almost exclusively.

That was in the days of BMW K75/100 series police bikes and before Honda Pan Europeans with linked brakes etc entered police service over here.
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Skully
Posted on Friday, September 13, 2013 - 06:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

American Sportbike, one of our sponsors, sells the DHM kit to convert the rear caliper on your bike to a Brembo dual piston set up.
Keith
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Fotoguzzi
Posted on Friday, September 13, 2013 - 09:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

thx, I might do that since I have a Brembo caliper in my spare pile.
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