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Greg_e
Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2011 - 07:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

OK, so I tore the front cylinder off my XB9R because it has been making noise and looking in the spark plug hole it was all black and wet... It appears the oil rings are completely gone, the cylinder still has most of the crosshatch on it, no vertical scratches, no bearing slop. Is this the dreaded aftermath of following the owner manual for break in?

Valves are no a mess and I'll need to have the seats cut again and might need new valves. The bright side is that I think I should be able to get away with one size over rings and have the cylinders honed for the fresh rings. The back of the piston looks like it may or may not have been rubbing, hard to say and the anti-friction stuff is mostly present. The last picture shows the suspected wear in this coating.

here are the pictures, they are nearly 40MB total so please don't click on them if you don't have any intention of offering help. I will not embed these because they are large, wanted as much detail as possible for anyone willing to help. THEY ARE NOT DIAL UP FRIENDLY!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v329/Greg_E/XB9R /DSCF0637.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v329/Greg_E/XB9R /DSCF0638.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v329/Greg_E/XB9R /DSCF0639.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v329/Greg_E/XB9R /DSCF0640.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v329/Greg_E/XB9R /DSCF0641.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v329/Greg_E/XB9R /DSCF0642.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v329/Greg_E/XB9R /DSCF0643.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v329/Greg_E/XB9R /DSCF0644.jpg

Thanks for any help or just back up on the way I think it can be corrected. I'll bring the parts to a machine shop when I finish pulling them and get the rear dismantled so that both can be the same size and freshness.
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Hughlysses
Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2011 - 08:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Greg- that looks kind of nasty. Could be improperly seated rings or bad valve guide seals. Your cylinders and pistons look fine. Light honing and fresh rings should fix them up. I'll bet you can just clean up the head and valves, re-lap them by hand and re-install with new seals.

OTOH- Nothing here would explain the cause of your knock. Is the rod tight on the crank pin?
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Greg_e
Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2011 - 10:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

All the bearings/bushings felt good, all the rockers seemed good, basically no unexpected slop in any of these parts. No shortage of oil anywhere, nothing that I was expecting. What I do know is that there is a small pop coming back through the intake, wondering if this could be the noise I hear.

Going to take the parts to a machine shop and ask them to scuff the cylinders, do a valve job and check the guides (replace if needed) and ask them what they think might be the issue.

Still think I'm going to throw new lifters in it, just not sure if I'll go V-Thunder or Fueling, the V-Thunder cost about a third as much for a set ($56 vs. $145).

Obviously I need a set of rings for the fresh cylinder scuffing. One thing I noticed when I pulled the rear apart... The piston had a light brown spot where the oil sprayer hits the back side, this can only be caused be an over heated piston, so I'm wondering if I should get a new one for the rear cylinder.

The rings on the rear piston all looked the same as on the front so I guess the oil rings just don't stick out very far when they are out of the bore.

Background... This bike came to me with a blown out Jardine, the guy had been running it like that for some time. It didn't even have the perforated pipe inside anymore. It also had one of those stupid fuel fooler things to add the "enrichment" needed for the new exhaust. The damn thing ran so hot it melted the plastic split loom around that fooler's wiring harness, the rocker cover shouldn't get that hot.
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Fast1075
Posted on Monday, June 13, 2011 - 10:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The pistons have been rocking in the bore. There is no way I would try honing and reusing that set...A hone and re-ring may seal briefly, but will be doomed in the long run...it may be sloppy enough to break a skirt very soon...maybe the fuel gizmo ran the motor super rich and washed the cylinders.

If it was mine, it would get a new cylinder kit...the heads will need a good going thru also....that thing has been pumping oil badly...good time for upgrades..
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Pammy
Posted on Monday, June 13, 2011 - 01:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The piston doesn't look bad, but the hone on the cylinders looks like a hand hone. Looks like cylinders were washed down for sure. Shiney!

Head work is a given. Honing at the very least. Rings a must. I am surprised you didn't have some heinous pinging.
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Hughlysses
Posted on Monday, June 13, 2011 - 01:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The pistons have been rocking in the bore.

If you take pistons and cylinders to your machine shop, the machinist will check piston fit and recommend reuse/replace accordingly.

Pammy- maybe his "knock" was pinging?
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Greg_e
Posted on Monday, June 13, 2011 - 03:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I ordered some bore gauges and put everything on hold until I can measure the cylinders and see if they are out of round. Part of the shiny is the camera and flash, they don't look to glazed in real life.

I didn't see the evidence of pinging, normally that will pit the piston crown or the head chamber and I don't see any of that through the crud. I'll take a closer look when I sit down to measure everything and see what is happening.

I've also decided to pull the valves out and check the guides before bringing anything in for service, just want to make sure myself first. I expect I'll need guides in the front (pictured) so I want to know about it before hand. Definitely time for new valve seals.

I was thinking about the heavier "crosshatch" thinking it might have had work done to it before. Assuming they are out of round I have three choices that may all be the same price:

#1 new stock cylinder and pistons.

#2 bore to an oversize and new pistons.

#3 big bore kit.

It seems that good pistons are around $300 a pair, the big bore kit is $750, and I have no idea what stock parts will cost me. I don't really want to go to a bigger bore, but if the price is the same I might as well do it. Anyone know how much a stock cylinder and piston will cost me?

Anyone have comments on lifters? Pretty sure I've decided to go with the lesser expensive V Thunder from Comp Cams, these run about $60 for the set. Fueling has been recommended but they are $145 a set and I don't think I need that level of performance on a street machine.
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Livers
Posted on Monday, June 13, 2011 - 04:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Factory parts

Piston w/rings ~$105-125 each
Tappets ~$25 each.
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Pammy
Posted on Monday, June 13, 2011 - 06:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I didn't see that it was knocking. No pit marks were visible in the photos but there was so much oil, yikes!

That "crosshatch" looks like a hand job...no pun intended. Or a "dirty" stone.
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Greg_e
Posted on Monday, June 13, 2011 - 09:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Latus shows the cylinder, piston, rings kit as $266 or $532 a pair, add $100 for top end gaskets and I'm $100 away from the NRHS 1050 kit.

Guess I'll know more when I start measuring.
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Iamarchangel
Posted on Monday, June 13, 2011 - 11:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

On the last picture, with the piston and the exposed hole to the crankcase…

stuff a sock or something in there to prevent anything from falling in.

DAMHIK (see my last thread)
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Greg_e
Posted on Monday, June 13, 2011 - 11:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

There are rags in there, not sure why it wasn't there in that picture.

(Message edited by Greg_E on June 13, 2011)
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Greg_e
Posted on Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - 11:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Please comment on the assembly lube post up in quickboard. It's looking like Redline because I can order it with the Hylomar gasket sealer and a break in oil (high zinc) from the same place.
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Greg_e
Posted on Saturday, June 18, 2011 - 05:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Found where the oil was getting in on the front cylinder... Despite the cylinder looking like it was barely broken in, it was out of round by a total of 0.013 inch and that was measuring with less precise tools that you really need to use.

Bought some cheap telescoping gauges and measured with my .001 accurate calipers. It was so far off I had to check it three times, then tried to rotate the gauge after locking the measurement and found it would not rotate at all.

Now I have to wonder how warped the heads are going to be.
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Pammy
Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2011 - 07:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Heads shouldn't be warped. Cylinders probably wouldn't seem so bad with torque plates.
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Greg_e
Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2011 - 12:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I was wondering if a torque plate would really change them that much and since I don't have one I'll never know.

I'll probably start cleaning up the heads tonight, had to wait for a spring compressor which arrive last night. I really hope they are still flat and that I don't need guides and seats. I can deal with valves and seals easily enough.
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Greg_e
Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2011 - 08:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Pulled the heads apart... Intake valves are both burned, seats lightly pitted. Exhaust valves also look like they have been hotter than normal but seat look OK. Guides feel like they are plenty big.

It obvious that both cylinders were burning plent of oil at some time in their life, never really saw much oil getting used and never saw any smoking so I'm still not sure of all the places it was coming in. I can say that now the entire top end will be new.
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Argentcorvid
Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2011 - 08:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The guy probably ran with the gutted muffler for a long time, then had someone tell him that he needed the fuel enrichment.
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Greg_e
Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2011 - 10:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Nope, the fuel fooler was on there long enough to have the split loom harness plastic get melted by the rocker cover on the rear cylinder. Need to take it to a local shop tonight and see what kind of price they can give me, going to be roughly $300 if I send them away ($100 for new valves and the rest for guides and machine work).

And yes I am going to put new O2 and head temp. sensor in when I rebuild it, both are probably fried.

(Message edited by Greg_E on June 23, 2011)
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