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Buell Forum » 1125R Superbike Board » Archive through September 11, 2015 » Two presses of button required for cold start; Antigravity batteries? « Previous Next »

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Thefleshrocket
Posted on Wednesday, August 12, 2015 - 10:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

My '08 1125R has developed an odd cold start issue. I turn on the key, wait for the tach to sweep, and then press the starter button. The motor will crank and crank--it might start after 5+ seconds, or I might give up after 10+ seconds. If it doesn't start, I release the starter button and on the second attempt, it starts almost instantly.

Additionally, if, on the first start attempt, I just press the starter button for a split second (like enough for the starter to barely, if at all, turn the motor), the motor will start within a couple revolutions on the second attempt.

There are no odd noises, and nothing to make me think anything is amiss with the starting system. This issue happens whether the bike has sat for two weeks without a tender, or if I just pulled it off of the charger. When the bike is warm or has been ridden recently, it starts normally on the first attempt.

This issue arose after I changed out the original Harley battery (which lasted until 2014), which makes me think that it's a battery issue. The terminals are tight, although really snugging them up tightly seemed to have a small improvement. I suppose I could test my theory by hooking up a set of jumper cables--start on the first try would suggest that it is a battery issue.

The Yuasa replacement battery I've got in it now is rated at 200CCA. http://store.yuasabatteries.com/p/ytx14

One of my riding buddies has a Lithium battery (not sure if it's LiPo or LiFePo or whatever) in his '05 R1 and he's super pleased with it--he says the engine cranks much faster, fires with fewer revolutions, and that the bike itself runs more smoothly.

So, while I was at MotoGP this weekend, I checked out the Antigravity Batteries display. The battery that they recommend for the 1125R is rated at 360CCA--surely more than enough power to spin up the 1125 on the first try. http://antigravitybatteries.com/ytx12-12/

I figured I'd see what the forum's opinions were, both on my double-press start issue, and on the Antigravity batteries.
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Froggy
Posted on Wednesday, August 12, 2015 - 11:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

It may be related to the fuel pump, like it is not priming sufficiently, then when you tap the starter and let go, it primes again.

Instead of hitting the starter twice, try turning the key on, wait a few seconds, then turn the key off and back on.
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Thefleshrocket
Posted on Thursday, August 13, 2015 - 12:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I'll give that a try in the morning and report back. Thanks for the suggestion.
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Thefleshrocket
Posted on Thursday, August 13, 2015 - 10:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

This morning, I tried the jump start test. My 1125 sat overnight with no tender--it was ridden yesterday and was on a tender before that. I connected the jumper cables to my wife's Nimitz but didn't start it, and then turned on the 1125's key. The battery light came on almost instantly. I checked the voltage on the cluster and it was at 12.2 and dropping. It was down to 11.8 by the time I started the aircraft carrier. Cluster voltage started climbing and by the time it got to 13.5V, I hit the starter. The "batt voltage" error flashed momentarily but the motor cranked at a normal speed and fired after about two revolutions.

I suspect that the battery doesn't have enough power to crank the engine and run the electronics required for the bike to start.

After lunch (when the bike has sat for 4+ hours), I'll try Froggy's idea of turning the key on, then off, then back on again, and see if that behaves any differently.
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Terrys1980
Posted on Thursday, August 13, 2015 - 10:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

12.2v is only about a 35% charge. It is recommended to change the battery anytime the resting voltage is around 12.3 or less.
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Nobuell
Posted on Thursday, August 13, 2015 - 01:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I have had great luck with the EarthX batteries. They have some great electronic features for even cell charging and elimination of over discharge. The discharge feature saved a battery once when I forgot to turn of the ignition.
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Dannybuell
Posted on Thursday, August 13, 2015 - 01:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I tap the starter on the cr to put some gas in the chamber. I wait about 10 seconds and tap again. It usually fires right up.
It is better to let the engine cool on a hot day with this process. I suspect the sensors do a read on the first tap and the second tap benefits from the read.
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Thefleshrocket
Posted on Thursday, August 13, 2015 - 04:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I did Froggy's test. I turned on the key, let the tach sweep, then turned off the key, waited a couple of seconds, turned on the key, waited for the tach sweep, and then hit the starter. The battery light never came on, and the engine fired after two revolutions.

That said, the bike only sat for about 4 hours after being run, and on the 15-minute to work this morning, the fan never kicked in so the battery got a decent charge the whole way. Typically on the way home, the fan runs for at least part of the ride.

I'll run Froggy's test once again tomorrow morning, so that the circumstances are as close to possible as they were yesterday morning.
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Thefleshrocket
Posted on Thursday, August 13, 2015 - 04:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Terry, the battery voltage drops quickly once the key is turned on--presumably the headlights are the biggest draw. Given how quick the voltage dropped from 12.2 to 11.8 (literally under a minute), I suspect that the battery's capacity isn't what it's supposed to be.

This was a new battery that I put the acid into, and I topped it off using a 0.75A charge from a Battery Tender Junior before installing it.
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Thefleshrocket
Posted on Thursday, August 13, 2015 - 04:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Nobuell, I looked up the EarthX batteries. Here's the one that's recommended for our 1125s: http://earthxmotorsports.com/shop/etx24c/

It's even pricier than the Antigravity battery, at $260ish, but it has some nice features: cell balancing, and overcharge and overdischarge protection. I guess if I'm going to spend $200 on a battery, an extra $60 won't make or break the deal. I'm just curious as to whether the Antigravity battery has any of those features.
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Mhpalin
Posted on Thursday, August 13, 2015 - 06:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Are you turning the key on then waiting for the yellow check engine light on the inst. cluster to go off before pushing the starter button,if not try that.
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Thefleshrocket
Posted on Thursday, August 13, 2015 - 10:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I typically hit the start button after the tach has swept back to 0. I don't recall specifically waiting for the CEL to go out, but I'll try that in the morning.
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Zachp
Posted on Friday, August 14, 2015 - 08:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

My 08' R does the same thing. I just turn the key, wait for the ic to sweep and return to 0 then I twist the throttle wide open once before i hit the starter and it fires right up every time. If i dont twist the throttle it cranks and cranks then chokes. But the WOT works every time
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Thefleshrocket
Posted on Friday, August 14, 2015 - 11:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

This morning, I turned on the key, waited for the tach sweep and the CEL to go off, then turned the key off and back on, waited for tach and CEL to go out. The bike started on the second crank, BUT.. the IC flickered "batt voltage" and went out while cranking, and when it came back on it, briefly flashed "comm error". (It typically does this during most cold starts.) This seems to reinforce that there's not enough juice to crank the bike and run all the electronics at a happy level.

(Message edited by thefleshrocket on August 14, 2015)
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Thefleshrocket
Posted on Friday, August 14, 2015 - 11:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Zachp, that's odd--I wonder what putting the throttle to WOT before cranking does to help.
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Terrys1980
Posted on Friday, August 14, 2015 - 12:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

When you release the throttle the TPS is probably not going back to zero therefore more fuel could be getting sent when cranking.
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Thefleshrocket
Posted on Friday, August 14, 2015 - 09:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

So... TPS reset ought to help? I'll give that a shot.
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Steeleagle
Posted on Friday, August 21, 2015 - 09:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I've been watching this thread as I'm having a similar issue. I replaced the OE battery with a replacement Harley unit early this year. At cold start it either takes quite a few spins to get running, and even if/when it starts it will idle rough initially and sometimes stall. Once it's warm, no issues. No error codes, low battery indications, etc., so I'm interested if a root cause is found. I've tried the suggestions above, no effect.

I'm going to check on rated CCAs. There MUST be a difference, since the only change made was the battery. I replaced the OE primarily due to age: It was almost 7 years old and I have no desire to find I need a replacement while I'm in some remote locale.
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Thefleshrocket
Posted on Friday, August 21, 2015 - 10:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Interesting, Steeleagle--I figured that since my original Harley battery didn't exhibit the problems, a replacement one might be good as well. But since yours is being grumpy about cold cranking, that's apparently not the case.

Mine seemed to improve slightly when I made the battery terminal bolts as tight as possible--maybe there's some corrosion on the connectors.
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Dannybuell
Posted on Friday, August 21, 2015 - 10:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Could a part of this be summer temperatures,seasonal gasoline fluctuations or brands of gas? My car and bikes start better on grades and brands of gas.

@Steeleagle when was your last plug change and valve adjustment? mileage then and now? cam chain tensioner? could there be a slight timing issue?
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Steeleagle
Posted on Friday, August 21, 2015 - 10:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Valves done just last year w/new plugs. Haven't check chain tensioner for wear and possible timing issues. It's odd that this symptom began right after the new battery. Coincidence? Maybe, but I also changed the battery at the same time on my V-Rod and am having similar issues.

I checked the old VS new battery rating: The old battery (Yeah, I still have it!) has NO marking on it re; CCA or AH, but the FSM for 2008 sayeth 200 CCA (no temp listed) and 12 AH. The replacement battery indicates 225 CCA at 0 degrees and 12 AH. Seems like IF the original was "only" 200 CCA at 0 degrees the replacement would spin easier.

Part numbers are similar: 65958-04 (OE) VS 65958-04A for the replacement.

I just snugged up he terminals to see if that had any effect.
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Poppinsexz
Posted on Friday, August 21, 2015 - 12:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

What are your temperature sensors saying?
That can have an effect on cold and hot startup. I've had several problem ambient air temp sensors on my R
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Thefleshrocket
Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 12:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I hooked up one of the Battery Tender voltmeters so I could monitor my 1125 while cranking.

Key off - 12.6v
Key on - ~11.8-11.9v
Cranking - ~9.5-9.7v

After several seconds of cranking, the cluster went dark and the bike stopped cranking. The voltmeter was displaying gibberish, so I unplugged and replugged it. With the key on, it was only reading around 4.0v. I turned the key off and back on and initially the cluster stayed dark, but after several tries, the voltage with the key off went back up to 12.4, then 12.5 and then 12.6, and when I turned on the key, the cluster lit up.

Then I tried cranking again, and as soon as I did, the cluster went dark and no cranking happened. After a few key off/on cycles, the cluster lit up. I watched the battery and tried to crank again. I noticed a small puff of smoke from around the positive terminal as soon as I hit the start button. The cluster went dark. I waited a few seconds and tried again, and got the same thing--tiny puff of smoke as soon as I hit the starter and the cluster went dark.

I looked more closely at the battery and noticed that I've got a spacer between the positive terminal and the battery lead. Could that be causing the problem?

I'll post a few pics in a bit.
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Thefleshrocket
Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 12:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Here are pics:

http://www.thefleshrocket.com/images/bike/1125r/ba ttery/IMG_6375.JPG

http://www.thefleshrocket.com/images/bike/1125r/ba ttery/IMG_6376.JPG

http://www.thefleshrocket.com/images/bike/1125r/ba ttery/IMG_6377.JPG
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Panshovevo
Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 12:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Either your battery is bad, or the terminals are not making good contact, or both.

The smoke from the positive terminal indicates arcing under load, which indicates to me that there is corrosion or other damage to the terminal or cable end.
If any gases leak from the battery while this is happening, you risk a battery explosion.

Your voltage is way too low. With a good battery, your voltage with the key on should be about 12.6 or higher.

If you keep trying to start it this way, you risk damage to the starter and possibly the electronics.

My '09 has only one wire on the positive terminal. Is the second wire on yours original?

(Message edited by Panshovevo on August 26, 2015)
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Thefleshrocket
Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 06:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Panshovevo, the second wire on the positive terminal goes to the battery tender lead.

I checked my '05 Speed Triple, which got a new battery last year, and it too indicates 12.6v with key off, and 11.8-11.9 with key on and the engine off. Those bikes are known for having weak stators too, so I checked my buddies' Ducati Streetfigher 1098 and Monster 1100. They were both at 13v with key off and dipped to 12.45-12.5v with key on, so either their charging systems are stronger (likely) or their batteries are better (maybe, but theirs are several years old and mine are year-old Yuasas).

Do you think that the spacer has any effect on the poor current transfer and/or arcing?
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Terrys1980
Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 07:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

You might want to eliminate anything connected to the battery except the charging/starter cable.

Yes the spacer can add resistance, especially if the coating isn't that conductive. The starter cable needs to be on the bottom and make direct contact with the battery post.

Ditch the star washer. You are loosing a lot of continuity because of that.

I never had luck with Yuasa batteries.

13 volts resting seems high, are you sure the meter you are using is correct?

(Message edited by terrys1980 on August 26, 2015)
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Thefleshrocket
Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 09:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Terry, the brass (at least I assume brass--maybe copper?) spacer had some corrosion around its base and was stuck to the battery terminal. I lost it down the tail section while prying it off.

Star washer will go away.

I'm going to need some kind of spacer, though--the terminal is about 1/4" below the side of the battery, and the battery cable is shaped such that it can't be attached without a spacer.

I used a Battery Tender voltmeter on my Triumph and Buell, and a cheapy voltmeter on the two Ducatis. I assume that both voltmeters are correct but I haven't tested them side by side to confirm. The resting voltage was after both bikes had been ridden shortly before--perhaps it's what my old shop teacher called a "surface charge"?
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Thefleshrocket
Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 10:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I didn't want to be without my Buell while trying to order a new spacer, so I decided to find the spacers from a couple of old batteries still laying around my garage and use those instead. While doing that, I found another brass or copper spacer like the one that was on the 1125's battery--until I lost it earlier tonight.

I reconnected the battery using the new spacer and with the star washer removed, turned on the key, and hit the starter. The bike fired on the second or third revolution, and it seemed to crank more quickly too. So, yeah, either it was the corrosion on the original spacer (which was admittedly not a large amount and didn't appear to actually be on the mating surfaces) or it was the star washer (or both).

I'll keep you guys posted as I ride the 1125 over the next several days, but I am hopeful that the problem is resolved.
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Terrys1980
Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 11:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Glad it's getting better.

Did you hit the lead terminal with a wire brush? And both sides of the ring terminals?

Considering the corrosion issue, I would check/clean all grounds also.
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Thefleshrocket
Posted on Thursday, August 27, 2015 - 09:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

No, I didn't do any cleaning because all of the mating surfaces appeared clean. The corrosion was on the outside, around the base, of the old spacer. When I popped off the spacer, the battery terminal's surface below it looked clean, as did the surfaces on the battery tender lead and the positive cable.
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