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Jeepinbueller
Posted on Tuesday, July 28, 2015 - 01:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Fourth time I've been stranded on the CR.

This time the starter just whines... sounds like I've worn the starter gear smooth.

Been putting up a huge bitch fest every time I have to start her up, especially cold, for the past few weeks. Ka-chug, ka-chug, CHUG CHUG POP, CHUG POP. Try again. HARD CHUG, "SYSTEM VOLT ERR" flashes, stops chugging, CHUG CHUG, starts up. Really labored.

Now, push the button and things just spin, engine doesn't turn at all. Battery is 100% charged. I'm 100% busy at work. And I'm 100% pissed I'm working through my lunch break.

So, where should my troubleshooting start?

I, for the life of me, cannot pop the clutch on this this. 1st gear, 6th gear, downhill 10 mph, sitting down as hard as I can for traction when I pop it, just drags the rear tire.

(Message edited by jeepinbueller on July 28, 2015)
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Brokengq
Posted on Tuesday, July 28, 2015 - 01:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Sounds like she needs a sprag. Don't keep trying to start it. If it is the sprag clutch then every time you try to start it you're making more metal in the engine. Drain the oil, check the plug and screen for debris.

Also stop trying to pop the clutch and start the bike. Until you can confirm whether or not the sprag failed the last thing you want is that engine running. Assume the worst, which is that the sprag is worn smooth and the case is full of metal. Get a ride home if possible.

Not to worry though man, a lot of us have had sprag failures. The bike will ride again.

(Message edited by brokenGQ on July 28, 2015)
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Panshovevo
Posted on Tuesday, July 28, 2015 - 02:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I know very little about Buells as yet, but I've seen sprag clutches fail on Harleys as a result of incorrect ignition timing or other factors that caused kick-back.

I'm wondering, from the description of the sound, if there's an underlying issue, like maybe a troublesome crank position sensor.

Any thoughts?
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Jeepinbueller
Posted on Tuesday, July 28, 2015 - 02:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/676121.html?1423686110

That's definitely it - you nailed it. At $200, that's a 'spensive srag.

Thanks for your help, Broken!

Unfortunately, this probably puts me out for the season. Ride safe ya'll!
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Brokengq
Posted on Tuesday, July 28, 2015 - 02:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The starter system is entirely mechanical aside from the voltage needed to spin the starter itself. If the starter is spinning then we can rule out electrical problems.

That being said there are only 4 parts to the starter system. The starter, the sprag clutch, the sprag housing, and the starter gear in the case. The pinion gear on the starter engages the starter gear in the case, which binds the sprag clutch up via friction between the starter gear and the sprag housing. The sprag housing is bolted to the charging system rotor at the end of the crankshaft, allowing the crank to spin. So the order of events looks something like:

1. Starter spins
2. Starter gear spins
3. Starter gear binds sprag clutch
4. Friction from sprag locks starter gear to charging system rotor
5. Now locked to the system, the starter spins the rotor attached to the crank starting the engine.

If the sprag clutch fails to bind, the starter just spins the starter gear in the case with no resistance, causing a free spin.

HTH
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Brokengq
Posted on Tuesday, July 28, 2015 - 02:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Lol posting at the same time! Glad I could help. There are detailed posts on the repair. It is typically standard procedure to replace the sprag, housing, and starter gear at the same time. All in all I think it runs about $450 for all of the parts. Hope it runs soon. Good luck, feel free to contact with any questions.
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Jeepinbueller
Posted on Tuesday, July 28, 2015 - 04:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thank you so much for going into the functional description of the starting system... I write tech manuals all day, and although I don't know the 1125 inside and out, your description will allow me troubleshoot this easily once I get it apart.

Guess I need to sell the Jeep a little sooner than I thought to free up some money!

Does any body have a good source for these parts? And other than the main components, are there any other consumable parts I need to replace getting the starter exploded to that level? Rotor nut, for instance?

(Message edited by jeepinbueller on July 28, 2015)
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Brokengq
Posted on Tuesday, July 28, 2015 - 04:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Rotor nut for sure, it's a one time use part. You might want to have the charging side gasket on hand just in case you tear it. I used New Castle HD for my sprag parts last year, but Surdyke HD had very competitive prices so I would check both. I'll see if I can't dig up some part numbers for you tonight.

Once you get the new sprag make sure you inspect it thoroughly before you install it. There seems to be some QC issues with the manufacturing lately and people are receiving sprags with the bearings installed backwards. If you install it with the bearings backwards you'll be in the same boat you are now with the starter free wheeling. You'll have to tear down again and reverse the bearings inside the sprag and reassemble. Not fun.

The bearings are only held in the clutch but a spring running the circumference. You can pop them out and reverse them by hand if needed.

http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/767262.html?1438063645

^^ this popped up yesterday. Good example of the QC issues.

The owner of the bike, Allen, just posted a good video of what was happening to his bike due to the bearing being reversed. You can see it on the BuellXB Facebook page. Also has a good shot of the internals and mechanics behind the sprag starting system. It's a short video of the cover off with him engaging the starter.
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Panshovevo
Posted on Tuesday, July 28, 2015 - 05:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Would a failing sprag would cause the "huge bitch fest" described above?

Or is it possible the starting issues led to the sprag failure?

I'd hate to see anyone spend a bunch of money and still have cranking problems that could lead to trashing another sprag.

Jeepin', have you had your battery load tested?
Checked for any stored trouble codes?
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Brokengq
Posted on Tuesday, July 28, 2015 - 05:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Panshovevo, once the sprag begins to fail it will slip before engaging, engage hard, then slip again. This puts an inconsistent load on the starter and the ECM detects it as a voltage error. When the sprag slips and then engages hard it draws more current very quickly and draws harder on the battery.

A weak battery however can cause the sprag to fail early. When the battery is dying it sends out less amperage to the starter, and in turn the inconsistent current there causes the sprag to have inconsistent pressure to hold the friction, causing wear. Keeping the bike on a tender is not only good for the battery, but preventative maintenance on the starter components.

Another good tip to keep the sprag lasting a long time is to always start the bike in neutral. Even with the clutch pulled in you can notice a bit more drag and even feel the bike try to move forward if started in gear. The added "weight" of the bike, engine, and rider on the sprag can cause it to wear early.

HTH

Chris
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Panshovevo
Posted on Tuesday, July 28, 2015 - 08:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The "really labored" part of the " huge bitch fest" makes me suspect either a weak battery (that can show near full voltage with no load) or a failing crank position sensor, which can throw the ignition timing off and make the engine crank hard because of plugs firing before they should.

In my experience with an electronically fuel injected Harley, when the CPS is that far gone, it will throw a trouble code, and won't run right if it does start.
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Jeepinbueller
Posted on Tuesday, July 28, 2015 - 09:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

This is definitely the sprag et al.

The bitch fest is exactly how Broken describes: very mechanical, lagging and coughing. Starter spins freely at certain points in the past, I could just bump it in gear a little and it'd catch... I didn't know it was a thing to be concerned about, since every other nag and noise this bike makes is apparently normal. I love it. She my clanky.

Battery is good to go--it goes on a battery tender every night and is only a year old. Tested good in May. Thanks for the help guys!

And thank you for the tips, Broken. Have the manual but still looking for a write up with pictures for the extra assistance.}
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Mrlogix
Posted on Tuesday, July 28, 2015 - 09:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

bought my sprag clutch and the sprag housing at surdyke HD. Check them and newcastle HD. They alternate on who has the lower price at the time. Didn't buy a new rotor nut, just used loctite on the threads. Checked with EBR before I re-used the rotor nut and they said it would be okay as long as I used the locktite.
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Brokengq
Posted on Tuesday, July 28, 2015 - 09:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I don't think there is a write up with pics for this repair. The manual has it detailed out fairly well. Maybe you can take some pics and make a write up?

Repair steps are pretty straight forward, pull the cover and zip tie it off to the side. No need to remove the stator. You will see 5-6 Allen head bolts on the inside running the circumference of the rotor. Break them loose but don't remove them. With the bike in neutral use an impact to remove the rotor nut, toss it away. Tug on the rotor and it should come off. A few *light* taps with a rubber mallet may be necessary to break it loose. Set the entire assembly (the starter gear will probably come with it) on your bench and finish taking out the Allen head bolts, the sprag housing should fall off the back of the rotor. The sprag clutch itself should pop out with your fingers. Compare the clutch to the new one, and reverse steps back in.

A few things to remember/keep an eye out for:

There is a balancer gear inside the case that is literally not held in by anything other than the charging system cover. If this falls out you need to realign it before you reinstall it. It has a dimple point on it that has to be aligned with the dimple point on its connecting gear. It also has a washer that sits on the end of it's shaft. Do not lose the washer, it is prone to just fall out of the case once the cover is removed. That gear is held in by the cover and the washer is it's spacer to keep it at the right spot in the case. The gear works as a harmonic balancer, so you can see the importance.

Also you need two different types of loctite, and they are listed in the manual.

There are two different ways to reinstall the rotor nut. The first is to go by the manual and use a crank locking tool (you can rent one here off the forum). Or you can impact it back on with the bike in neutral. I did the latter 5k miles ago with no issues.

Reassembly can be a bit of a drag. The starter gear only likes to be reassembled by being dropped into the sprag on the bench by hand, as opposed to trying to install the rotor over the starter gear in the bike. Then of course you have to try to realign the starter gear with the starter on the way back in. Takes some patience...

...and beer.

(Message edited by brokenGQ on July 28, 2015)
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Zac4mac
Posted on Wednesday, July 29, 2015 - 10:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Old news... the rotor nut.
The 300 ft-lbs of torque distorts the nut which is a little "dished".
The nut can be re-used 2-4 times if cleaned and re-Loctited(NEVER re-use a customer job unless OKd).
Liability.

Z
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