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Buell Forum » EBR & Buell in the News » Archive through August 27, 2007 » "Erik's revenge" in Cycle World Mag « Previous Next »

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Barker
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 09:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

There is a little bit about how now most of the other bike makers are seeing the light and ripping off erik's underslung cans.

Its in the versys article.
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Blake
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 04:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, yes?

Stay tuned for ZTL brake/wheel systems to commence showing up on other brands in the not too distant future.
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07xb12scg
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 05:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, yes?

Stay tuned for ZTL brake/wheel systems to commence showing up on other brands in the not too distant future.

Imitation means the idea is a good one...usually. The idea of placing the heavy muffler down low and towards the horizontal center of the bike to get it near the center of gravity just makes so much sense that it's pretty ingenious. This is why the other manufacturers are following suit. Honestly, I'm surprised that this idea hasn't been used on high performance motorcycles before. Maybe it has? I don't know.

There are some potential drawbacks to the underslung muffler, though. Possible cornering clearance issues and the potential to bottom out are the obvious problems. But having a muffler below the bike that could take up to 6" or more of space could force the engine to sit 6"+ higher in the frame. Obviously, this could have unwanted side effects on the handling. The Japanese manufacturers are find ways around this by jamming the muffler into unused space. Have you guys seen the odd shapes of some of these mufflers?

Anyway, this is a great example of Erik's ability to think outside of the box and change things for the better. This is why I respect him so much as an engineer. Some companies seem to change things just to be different regardless of how it will adversely affect the end product.

As far as the ZTL goes, I disagree. I think the Japanese 4 will stick with dual disc brakes with radial mounted calipers on their sport bikes. Only time will tell for sure.
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Ikeman
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 05:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Didn't Honda put out a bike with an underslung fuel tank (NSR maybe)? I thought they still ended up with some handling quirks and packaging issues.

Can't remember for sure - could've been one of the other "big 4".
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Ezetobebad__uk
Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 12:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

So other manufacturers are ripping off eriks 'underslung exhaust'?

Well, lets look at this,

Did erik not rip off Yamaha & their twin spar frame?, did he not steal the idea of an exhaust valve from Yamaha exup design / idea.
ZTL brakes, well lets see if they utilise them in a 'formula' race series.
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Radegast
Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 02:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

A slight rant about invention.

There are no new ideas. If you've thought of it, someone else has thought of it before. The genius is the implementation of an idea. Ingenuity is the key, not invention. Soon, the catalyst filled mufflers will be as heavy as the motors so they should hang lower. As for fuel tanks, their weight changes as the fuel is burned so the bikes handling will change as you ride, therefore the fuel should be as close to the axle centerline as possible to offset this effect. That's one reason for "fuel in the frame" or under the seat. The next step for the Buell could be making the rear pulley the brake disk, removing about 3-5 lbs of rotating mass, or integrating the oil cooler with the oil tank/swingarm, removing weight and simplifying the oil system. Racing breeds ingenuity because anything that helps win a race is in some way increasing efficiency. No, Mr. Buell did not invent the twin spar frame or the exhaust power valve, he just adapted this technology to increase efficiency of another design. Ducati didn't invent mechanical valves, they were used on steam engines for 100 years. They adapted this technology to their engines to control intake and exhaust valves. It's not invention, it's ingenuity. Henry Ford didn't invent the Automobile, he perfected the assembly line. Anti-lock brakes were on aircraft long before cars. Smokey Yunick (sp?) had an all aluminum Double overhead cam Chevy V-8 in the back of his shop in the late '60s, early '70s and chevy said it would be too expensive to manufacture. Erik Buell did not invent the motorcycle, neither did Yamaha. Erik however is very ingenious when it comes to adapting technology and he is not limited to design-by-committee. The list goes on and on, I'll stop here.
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Ezetobebad__uk
Posted on Monday, July 23, 2007 - 02:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

A most splendid rant worded with such elegance.


just one question.....was the wheel actually invented?


thanks

eze
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Mikej
Posted on Monday, July 23, 2007 - 09:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I don't agree that there are no new ideas.
I tend to believe that there is something somewhat akin to spontaneous combustion worldwide when it comes to new ideas as has been shown many times over, where some new technology appears in several parts of the world at almost the same timeframe.
At some point somebody has to be the first one to think of something, and someone which may be someone else has to be the first one to put something into practice, then someone else comes along and as noted modifies it a bit and calls it their own.

There are new ideas, there has to be, otherwise there would be no plastic (not entirely sure that's completely a good thing though)
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Mikej
Posted on Monday, July 23, 2007 - 09:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)


http://www.krankyscartoons.com/images/Original_Whe el.jpg
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Mattwhite
Posted on Monday, July 23, 2007 - 11:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Your're looking at the ideas from a philosophical standpoint(special thanks to microsoft word for figuring out how that's spelled). Look at the last commercial Buell made. Patents are a legal thing. I think they're good for 20-25 years. The underslung muffler has been around for a while, I don't think it's protected anymore.
I don't know when the ZTL brake patent was filed, but the bike came out in 2003 so it's probably a Buell exclusive for while.
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Radegast
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 09:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If you want to see an early "Zero-Torsional-Load" brake system, go check out a 1975 10 speed bike. It doesn't brake from the hub, but uses the wheel as the brake surface... reducing rotating mass and allowing the wheel to be lighter. The technology was adapted for another purpose. Erik saw the simplicity in it, nothing wrong with that. No new ideas, but yes there are new patents and new uses for old ideas. And I am looking at things philosophically.
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Bottomsdown
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 10:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

To see Buell's U.S. patents go to:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.ht ml

- then type 'Buell' in the 'Term 1' window and select 'Assignee Name' in the 'Field 1 window'. Mechanical patents are good for 20 years.
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