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Greg_cifu
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2011 - 02:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

OK Court, of all the people on the huge worldwide web, you (and Dave) seem to be most likely to be able to answer my questions. Your book is also to blame for me even knowing about these bikes. : D

I just brought home a companion for my Westwind--yes, one of those crazy Paramount bicycles. In the archive, you mentioned having one hanging over your desk. If that's still true, could you look up and check your components against my list below?

What I'm trying to figure out is if this bike is the higher-spec of the two factory configurations or if the frameset was bought individually and everything else added to it.

In your book, it mentioned a hydraulic REAR brake but, a cable front and didn't expand on what the difference was between the two price points.

This bike is almost exclusively XTR and XT components as well as a hydraulic brake up front--leading me to wonder if that was the price difference.

I'll have pictures to share tomorrow. For now, here's the list:
  • Magura fully hydraulic rim brakes (front and rear) (ZTL V0.5? : D)
  • Shimano XTR front and rear derailleurs, cassette and thumb shifters (non indexing)
  • Shimano XT crankset
  • Shimano XTR hubs, Mavic 231 PSP rims and Wheelsmith butted spokes
  • Tioga psycho tires (very old, may be original)
  • Tioga cartridge bearing headset
  • Specialized air fork
  • Ritchey Force stem and Ritchey prolite WCS handlebars
  • Control tech seat post and handlebar ends.
  • Avocet gel saddle


If this was a factory build (or once was) I want to know what parts to scour Ebay for. If it's a build, I may upgrade a few things.

This should look really good next to the Westwind at the Pro Italia show next year.

Thanks in advance,
Greg
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Court
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2011 - 06:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

P.S. - the one I have hanging here was picked up from Erik at the barn (there is a GREAT story behind that, by the way) and has never been touched . . . so it makes a good "reference" spec.
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Greg_cifu
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2011 - 07:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I don't know what incidents you're referring to (and I really hope you're kidding and I just missed it).

The way I see it:

  • You have one.
  • Dave was at the factory when they were built.

Until somebody else who has one steps up, that makes the two of you the experts on them. : D

Seriously: I did a ton of googling, looking for other builds. I think there are three different bikes on Google images and one of them is mine. That doesn't narrow it down much.

Yes, it would be great to read the lost chapter on that bike. It's obvious this was a fairly major project that happened at a financial crossroads in Schwinn's history.
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Court
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2011 - 09:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

See if this helps . . . I've got to race out so there may be some duplicates in here.



































































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Court
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2011 - 09:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

And a couple more I found . . somewhere I have some of the original drawings and notes from development. . . .










































Hopefully this will help . . . . I'm getting ready to head to LA . . think I should bring the bike and ride?

: )
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Davegess
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2011 - 10:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Cool pix.

We didn't build these bikes at Buell. Paramount did. Some one there might be able to really answer questions. They are very involved in restoration work and may be very helpful

http://waterfordbikes.com/w/
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Court
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2011 - 11:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

My wife thanks you . . . . as we were digging crap out of the way to lift the bike off the wall we unearthed a box of old Buell memories . . . .now packed, along with the rest of the stuff, to be sent off to Buellgatory.

: )






















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Greg_cifu
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2011 - 01:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Court:
Thank you. That helps. The bikes are very similar but, slightly different. I also see two different bikes in your pics (different pedals, crank, stem and seat).

Mine seems to be more like the brochure bike than either of the bikes you shared. The previous owner of mine thinks it was a frameset build but, I'm not so sure.

All three bikes you shared have bits & pieces that match my bike.

The only components on mine that I don't see:
  • Stem and bars:mine are identical in shape, just not the finish (Richey brand: silver stem and golden--Easton tubing for the bar)
  • I have the hydraulic brake up front as well
  • My headset bearings are not XTR (could have been changed)
  • My fork is the Specialized and has boots, though from everything I read, Rock Shox made the Specialized fork. The stem portion is machined, same as yours, not forged like later ones.
  • My seatpost and seat are different.
  • My rims are Mavic, not Campagnolo.


I just can't imagine somebody buying a raw frameset, then going to so much trouble to exactly duplicate what they could have bought straight from Paramount.

If you're heading to LA, bring cool clothes. I picked the bike up in Sherman Oaks yesterday and it was 81 degrees at 3:30 PM. The forecast for Pasadena is 75-80 all the way through Sunday.

Dave; yes, I was aware that they were assembled off-site but, you were closest to them. You guys fabricated the frames and linkages, correct? Were they painted locally and shipped to Waterford as assembled framesets?

That's also a very good suggestion to contact Waterford. If nothing else, they might have a record of whether this was a frame or complete bike.

Thank you both for the help. I'll share pics of mine later today.
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Davegess
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2011 - 02:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

You guys fabricated the frames and linkages, correct?

I have to say I don't really remember but I don't think so. I think Paramount did everything, Erik got paid to design and develop. Frames could have been welded at Jim's place, he built all our frames, but I gotta think that bicycle frame building was what Paramount did. I see no reason why they would have someone else do this.

I also think that since this was a very high end bike that they were built to order so you could get just about any bits you wanted. Definitely call Waterford, some of the same folks are still there I suspect. If Mark Mueller (I think that was the guy) is still the boss say hey. He was a Schwinn and when the company got sold he bought up the Paramount facility and kept it going. A real serious bike guy.
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Court
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2011 - 05:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

That Waterford site is darn amazing. I am really impressed with their culture and the restoration work they do..

They have all the catalogs, including one page with the Paramount Buell. I know it's authentic as they spelled the named wrong ...... This was probably the first time we teased Erik about the Eric spelling.

I'm eage to learn more about what Weatherford is up to. American Craftsmanship and pride in workmanship may be finding another foothold in Wisconsin.

Impressive.

(Message edited by Court on December 29, 2011)
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Bads1
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2011 - 05:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Greg,

I may be able to help solve some questions possibly. One of my best friends worked at paramount. He did all there paint work in house. His name is Dave Neu. The frames were welded there also. One of the welders name was Cameron Towers. I'll be talking to Dave New Years Eve.... my wife I count the clock down every year with him and his better half.
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Bads1
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2011 - 05:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Here's some Buell history this picture was taken in back of Paramount bicycle's or Waterford bicycle's which ever you choose.Pictured from left to right are Cameron Towers(frame welder),some pee-on that did what ever around the shop,very close friend Dave Neu(frame painter),and Kelly Gamble(engineer that came from TREK to work for Paramount on the Buell bicycle.Anyway this was the prototype in which they snapped the frame in half at the head tube jumping the bike.24hrs later this bike was due in Chicago at Schwinn headquarters for testing.They had to build another frame and paint it in less then 24hrs.This one was taken out on a stretcher pronounced dead 10 min. later in the shop of severe head trauma.




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Davegess
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2011 - 05:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Great photo. Kelly went on to work at Buell. Good guy.
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Court
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2011 - 06:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

As did Chris Fiorini (who was the engineer for the bicycle project) who I **think** may have taken that photo.

Much of the testing, during development, took place on the rail bed behind the shop. I **think** that's where the photo was taken.

The timing was poor for the project. Schwinn was being done in and about the time the Buell bike was going to be built Harley-Davidson came a knockin'

Only the first bicycle design (patent) saw the light of day.

Shame.
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Court
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2011 - 06:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Wasn't far from there ....... That another well known Buell was snapped in half in front of some distinguished foreign guests.

:-)

Well ...... It should have worked.
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Bads1
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2011 - 06:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Court the pic belongs to my buddy Dave. I'll ask who took the pic. I know Dave wonders what happened to handful of the bikes painted in the same fashion but red instead of the purple.
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Bads1
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2011 - 06:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I know they did alot of testing out back. But the bike needed to meet durability tests in Chicago I guess. Cameron has a facebook page as does Dave. Dave builds cars and a motorcycle from time to time. Cameron is a professional glass blower. I seen him this past Summer as his High school and mine had there 25th reunion together. The guy could of went pro back in the day doing freestyle. He worked at Paramount and designed bikes. Haro Freestyle bikes actually bought a couple of his prototype frames and went on to use them.
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Court
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2011 - 07:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Cool !

I wonder if I have the only unmolested original bike? I went to a dealer in Shawnee, KS to pick up a couple of the catalogs when they cane out and wish I'd saved the Paramount box.

Fun times.

I think the pic was on a roll of film I got years ago ..... Perhaps they were from that guys camera.

They did some neat work ... Shame it was cut short.
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Jim2
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2011 - 12:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Here is an old article with a few more pictures.

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2008/10/29/param ount-buell-sass-bicycle-for-sale/
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Greg_cifu
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2011 - 01:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Cool information guys. As far as I've been able to find, this thread is now the definitive source of information about these bikes.

OK, here are the pics of my bike.

First: a picture of the shock next to a 14.5" Showa.








XTR derailleur and hub and butted spokes.


Shimano XTR derailleur and XT crankset


Mavic rims with stainless eyelets (from some research, these are very high-grade rims)


Magura hydrulic rear brake.


Ritchey Prolite bars and stem (the only component brand not on the other bikes, though it's also Easton tapered tubing--so essentially the same part)


The front Magura hydraulic brake and Specialized fork.


Control Tech seat post (same manufacturer as the stem on Court's bike) and Avocet gel saddle









The only thing that still rubs me the wrong way on this bike is the shifters. My similar-era GT Karakoram (Shimano LX Deore groupo) has index shifters. Thanks to the pictures of Court's bike, I'm now comfortable upgrading mine. I bought a set of old XTR shifters on Ebay today.

Now to get some tires and pedals...
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Court
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2011 - 06:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

It appears that someone took the Paramount frame and went to work. The Mavic rims are cool. I've seen them on motorcycles, never push bikes.

If you get time, go back and find the old (like 8 years ago) Badweb threads and you'll find some very good information.

I dug through a bunch of random old videos looking for the interview. Didn't find it yet, but I did find some videos of early Geoff May testing of the new EBR. So . . not a lost cause.

I always enjoy just looking at the bike.

If you want a quest . . . see if you can determine if Buell was "first" with a suspended front end on a 2 wheeler or if Mert Lawwill was.

http://compare.ebay.com/like/150622107838?var=lv&l typ=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar
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Court
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2011 - 06:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Here is the last good Badweb blow out . . .

http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/406 2/209635.html?1153925832
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1313
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2011 - 09:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Dave; yes, I was aware that they were assembled off-site but, you were closest to them. You guys fabricated the frames and linkages, correct? Were they painted locally and shipped to Waterford as assembled framesets?

I don't know if this will clear anything up or muddy it further, but here goes...

I remember going to Paramount a few days in a row to assemble the rear shock linkages for the Buell SASS bikes. I am certain someone else came with me but can't remember who and it might have been different on different days. I don't recall if there were other Buell SASS assembly operations being done at the same time or not, but I do recall assembling the rear shock linkages onsite at Paramount's Waterford facility.

I wish my memory could retain more of the finer
details...
1313
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Court
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2011 - 10:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Brankin:

Given the reality of the day . . .it's lukcy any of us even remember what city Waterford was in . . .

The Thursday night employee gatherings at Abe's did nothing to help.

:-)

Brankin was a young intern.

I was a contractor, visiting monthly with my own key to the factory.

And Abe was a "cub" engineer and Dave had brown hair.

Where'd the time go . . .
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Davegess
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2011 - 11:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I still have brown hair, it is just your eye sight that is failing; )
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Leftcoastal
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2011 - 05:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

OK - I'm thinking that with all of these photos of 'all things Buell' there needs to be a dedicated thread named "Buell Museum" where photos and related stories can be permanently posted. We'll have to remind Court, so we can actually have the story, not just it's threat.

All of the above posters - Greg, Court, Dave and others, seem to have either collected or ended up with or gathered up as part of the whole venture, enough Buell stuff to fill several buildings. That's not even touching what the rest of our Buell community has, which apparently is all of the rest of the stuff. (possibly only available because Court didn't get to it first.)

Since we don't have buildings, maybe a virtual one?

Just a suggestion - I'm too lazy and lacking in intelligence to tackle such a project!

Greg - rumor has it that Mr. Canfield is either already arrived or is close to arriving here in So Cal to do his "Grandpa" thing. I'm trying to force him into a face-to-face and dangling pecan pie as the carrot. I'll keep you in the loop, La Canada is just a short hop over the hill for you, as you well know.
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Greg_cifu
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2011 - 06:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yes, Al, I agree with the resources that have been collected in all of these threads.

Unfortunately, due to how this board's software works (as we all know), a lot of this stuff gets busted up in the archives and navigating it is tough. It's also tough when it won't break up long picture threads into multiple pages. I read a bunch of old information on these bikes in the Archives but, keeping track of how it was connected was tough.

Yes, I guessed that "Grandpa visit" was Court's purpose for this trip. I was semi-planning to ride to Newcomb's tomorrow morning for the Norton Club ride (leaving Pasadena at 11:00 AM). Lots of other bikes show up. I usually ride straight to Newcomb's.
http://socalnorton.com/calendar.html

The Westwind's tank is still off for relining so it will probably be an S2 day for me. I would ride down the hill for pecan pie. : D
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Court
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2011 - 08:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I've actually considered placing all this stuff in a central location rather than just tossing it.

It becomes increasingly more difficult to muster a convincing argument that 1,000th S2 shirts, unopened packages of Buell brochures and 1st issue Battle 2Win possess intrinsic value.

There are boxes of prototype parts, the various front rotors we toyed with from firms like Kelsey-Hayes, I have the "secret" ECM we once slipped in a bike when I took a celebrity for a ride . . and there are boxes, boxes and boxes of photos . . some with Erik and I looking like teens . . that have been dropped and mixed up time and time again.

Some of it simply falls in the "must go" category". I'd thought of doing an entire wall of the factory in old Buell shirts and doing a couple pages of the story behind each one. Yep, some of the shirts had really funny stories . . starting with the now fabled "Dave Gess fluorescent" model that was seized by the HD legal staff as a result of the wording . . . prior to Buell and HD becoming associated.

I'm **KINDA** starting work on a new project that will chronicle many lesser know moments in the history of Buell. I suspect this would be of little/no interest to anyone, save the most avid enthusiast and that number has ebbed in recent years. I'm mostly doing it to purge a lot of information and get it in writing.

It's beginning to look like some of the material, given my increasingly busy academic and legal consulting schedule, is simply going to get boxed, stored and will hopefully provide years of busy work in a retirement community down the road.

The funniest part of it is that it's nearly impossible to make any headway. I, as an example, dig into a box of photos (say the one of Erik setting up the geometry on my LOA bike in the middle of the night) and it evokes and hour long story.

The salient remnants . . . we had a GREAT time over the years and have had some experiences than many dream/talk about but never act on.

No regrets.

(Message edited by court on December 31, 2011)
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Greg_cifu
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2011 - 04:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)


quote:

Here is an old article with a few more pictures.

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2008/10/29/param ount-buell-sass-bicycle-for-sale/



Jim, thanks for that link but...that's actually MY bike in those photos. : D

That was from one of the times the previous owner had it for sale.
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Firemanjim
Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 04:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hey Court.I am still awaiting the Team Elves swag you were sending.
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