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Ktmguy
Posted on Saturday, May 30, 2015 - 02:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

So I have what I understand to be the general "pinging under acceleration" At least I assume that to be it. However I tried the mpst popular fix I have read, retarding the timing one tick, and it really made no difference, I even retarded it another tick (1 large tick all together) by rotating it counter clockwise and really no difference.. So, now what? whats the next stage? At this point for the 3 years I have had the bike, I have Never gotten ecmspy to work, harley shop is of no help.. so kinda lost..Any help appreciated. It runs extremely well with no hiccups.. went on a 300 mile round trip ride 3 weeks ago, that's when it materialized.
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Hughlysses
Posted on Saturday, May 30, 2015 - 02:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

First of all, are you sure it's pinging aka "spark knock"? It will happen only under acceleration, it will be more prevalent when the engine is hot, and it will occur in direct response to throttle opening. I.E.- if you back off the throttle when it starts pinging it should immediately stop. It should sound like someone hitting a piece of metal with a ball peen hammer; kind of a TACK-TACK-TACK sound.

If the sound doesn't match those criteria, it's not pinging.

If it IS pinging, adjusting the timing WILL affect it.

Hey- bring it on down to Buells in the Alps Five in July in Little Switzerland. Odds are there'll be someone there that can help diagnose and cure it.

(Message edited by Hughlysses on May 30, 2015)
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Teeps
Posted on Saturday, May 30, 2015 - 02:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

My '06 has pinged continually since I bought the bike in May of '06, with 850 miles.

I like you have tried many of the same things.
The only thing that proved fully effective was octane booster, or higher octane fuel. In CA 91 is it, unless you buy race gas...

Check for intake manifold vacuum leak.
Set static timing to factory recommendation.
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Ktmguy
Posted on Saturday, May 30, 2015 - 02:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

O.k, Teeps, how do I check for an intake manifold leak?
I did add octane boost to 91 octane gas a weeks or so ago..
I have a vibration in the display cluster but that is in front of the bike, and noticably different although something I should take care of also.

Hugh, that is the sound I have, however I retarded the timing and it did not really change..(counterclockwise right?) However I just took a ride through the neighborhood with my helmet off, it Almost sounds like a tweet coming from the exhaust. I can mimic it pretty good by simply Holding brakes and letting out on the clutch at low rpms. really almost sounds exhaust related, it has a drummer on it. hmm

On the plus side, I did get ECM spy to connect to the bike for the first time in 3 yrs today, however I have absolutely no idea how to use it.

I go to little switzerland a few times a year, but never on the uly.. if I dont get this straightened, I may come down there, however I would trailer the bike to be safe.


New question guys, is there any chance it could be the primary chain? thinking I have never adjusted it in 7,500 miles or so, and I have no idea when it was adjusted by previous owner?



(Message edited by ktmguy on May 30, 2015)
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Ktmguy
Posted on Saturday, May 30, 2015 - 05:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

O.k.. second test run, it most definitley seems worse when hotter, and is mostly occuring under load, although load can be small, like pulling out from a stop and light throttle when shifting, etc. But timing change does not seem to affect it, But I think Maybe I can do that again to be sure, how much is to much?

What can I check through ECMSPY now that I actually have it able to connect now Yippe! The bike runs absolutely fantastic.
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Hughlysses
Posted on Saturday, May 30, 2015 - 05:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I'm not convinced it's spark knock. Spark knock would almost never occur at light throttle. Typical conditions for spark knock would be ~3000-4000 RPM and roll on the throttle in 5th gear. When you get to 60-80% throttle open, you hear the noise. Ease off the throttle, the noise goes away. THAT's typical spark knock.

I don't think you could ever cause it with the bike sitting still at low RPM. Since changing the timing doesn't seem to affect it, that seems to confirm it's NOT spark knock.

Make sure the noise is not the horn hitting the inside of the fly screen- that's a known issue on these bikes and it could cause a very similar sound. The vibration on these bikes can make the horn (which is mounted on a flexible bracket) hit the back of the flyscreen as the bike vibrates. If you pull the flyscreen off and there's a mark corresponding to the horn, THERE's your problem! You can bend the horn bracket back to fix it.

Primary chain noise wouldn't sound like this unless it's VERY loose, and it would be worst with the bike sitting still in neutral. You'd also be experiencing a good bit of vibration at ~3000 RPM.

If it is spark knock, I think counterclockwise is correct to retard the ignition on this engine. The engine turns clockwise, but the ignition sensor is on the end of one of the camshafts and I think the camshaft in question turns counterclockwise so turning the timing plate counterclockwise would retard the timing.

You should be able to retard the ignition several degrees (say maybe up to 5) without causing any issues, except that power under acceleration will be slightly reduced, and it will be reduced more the more you have to retard. If you reduced it a crazy amount (say 10 or 15 degrees), it can cause the engine and especially the exhaust pipes to get VERY hot, as the fuel doesn't have time to burn before it's getting shoved out of the exhaust valves.

(Message edited by hughlysses on May 30, 2015)
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Tootal
Posted on Saturday, May 30, 2015 - 08:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I have a vibration in the display cluster but that is in front of the bike, and noticably different although something I should take care of also.

That right there could be causing the horn to hit. I'm with Hugh on that one.


Now I have had pinging at small throttle increases at highway speeds, like going up a large hill and adding a little more throttle. With ECM SPY you can retard the timing at certain rpm's but read some information about ECM SPY before playing.

Buelletinboard.com has a lot of info.
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Sagehawk
Posted on Saturday, May 30, 2015 - 11:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Ktmguy: how many miles are on the 07? If your combustions chambers are carbon loaded then not many changes will work. Had that happen on a 96 roadking. couple that with somewhat leaking intake seals would make that worse. worth checking right after checking the horn mount. Just saying that a whole bunch of little things can add up to those nagging problems these buells seem fraught with.
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Ktmguy
Posted on Sunday, May 31, 2015 - 05:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Sagehawk.. I have 31,000 miles on it, and it runs superb.. I THINK i have found the issue.
Based on Hugh and Tootal's I am actually looking more towards the horn now. I say that based ont he fact that just a few moments ago as I was pulling it up on a ramp with no helmet on, as I let out the clutch and the engine loaded there was a very noticable rattle coming from the instrument cluster. I pulled in the clutch it instantly stopped.. Loaded it again, and the noise reappeared. IF it is the horn, then I will be just mystified how a noice like that can make its way backwards, so we shall see. The fact the retarding the timing did absolutely nothing, and octane boost did nothing. The fact I hear it when I pull away at low revves also seems to narrow it to something OTHER than spark knock. So tomorrow I will pull the screen and look at the horn and go from there. I have learned (as most have with these bikes) not to get too excited yet but I think this may alleviate the issue. I will update once I dig in. Thanks for the tips guys!
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Hughlysses
Posted on Sunday, May 31, 2015 - 06:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Good deal. Hopefully that will turn out to be the case. It can be very hard to determine the location of a noise while riding with a helmet on.

If the horn indeed turns out to be the culprit, be sure and set your ignition timing back to the factory setting!
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Etennuly
Posted on Monday, June 01, 2015 - 09:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Another thing to look at is to make sure the fan is running when it is hot.

The horn rattle commutes through everything because it is usually quite loud.
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Mark_weiss
Posted on Monday, June 01, 2015 - 11:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The horn test is easy. Just remove the flyscreen and take a test ride.
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Arcticktm
Posted on Monday, June 01, 2015 - 11:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Ktmguy,
If you decide it is still pinging after your horn test, let me know.
I am working on this issue now with my '06, and about to start playing a little with timing via ECMSpy. I have not used it to make any changes yet, though.
I on on the west side of NC, south of Asheville, so not out of the question for you. You will see by my BadWeb name that we apparently also have "another brand" in common, and my new KTM has slowed down my work on the Uly for sure.
I am currently planning a front brake rebuild on the Uly this week to be able to do some better testing.
I get pinging much lower than 60% throttle.
Typically 3000-4500 RPM and 25-50% throttle according to my testing.
Only happens when engine temp is about 195 or higher (which makes sense).
Happened regardless of fuel (93 E10, 92 E0, with or without octane booster).
It is worse if I run my EBR ECU.
Engine is stock, but with K&N air filter and the '07 airbox lid, plus an open cc breather.
Again, lemme know how it turns out for you.

Mine is absolutely NOT horn. Modified that years ago, and now actually have a Fiamm in place of the stock horn, with altered mounting to avoid contact with anything.
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Ktmguy
Posted on Monday, June 01, 2015 - 02:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks Arctic.. Im near Greensboro and travel to Asheville a good bit. i think I have two separate issues. I have one identical to what you have. I have had it for about 18 months or so now ( I had a thread on here asking about it) Mine is at very light throttle openings, as you said, and as usually in the 2800-3200 rpm range. If I give it a bit more gas it simply goes away.. never had any issues with pinging before as I could drop down to 200o rpm ins 5th gear and chug away without a sound. I have a lifter that occasionally makes noise, so I have been chalking it up to that, Im not sure.

However what I heard last night definitely was coming from the instrument cluster as I was off the bike to the side guiding it up a ramp. My head was at perfect level with the gauges / windscreen when I heard it.

I;d like to use ecm spy also, as saturday was the first time I had ever been able to get it to connect to my bike in three years. Seems we are close and having similar issues, I can get my contact info to you somehow?

I know I looked into changing the timing through ECM spy also, I actually have some Data from a fellow on here who did that and showed me the changes, etc. That was going to be my next step.
I retarded the static timing a bit, but didn't really notice if I eliminated the noise you talk about as I was concentrating on the "new" noise and gotten so used to the other one.

(Message edited by ktmguy on June 01, 2015)
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Ktmguy
Posted on Monday, June 01, 2015 - 07:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Not the horn...Hmmmmm
Its most noticeable at low revs pulling away now.. Seems almost like a ping, but also like a "chirp" within the drummer, like the xhaust note changes a tad. Now I am recalling that when in traffic and around other vehicles, I could hear it echo a bit off the vehicles around me, which would lead me to think its not internal, but external.. However its linked to rpms in the essence that if I pull away with higher rpms, it not really noticable, but if I pull away at like 2000 rpms, thats when its noticeable.. Plot thickens.. for sale sign getting dusted off! I still wonder about the primary chain, No, it doesn't really vibrate.. In fact It runs absolutely perfect with no hiccups, weird vibrations or anything, but its something too look at.
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Uly_man
Posted on Monday, June 01, 2015 - 08:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I would say you need to be sure of the "type" of sound it is making. Pinging or knocking sounds like nothing else and if real bad it is very scary. It will sound like someone is hitting your exhaust/ engine very quickly with a light hammer and NOT like the horn rattling.

How do you know that you have a "lifter" problem. It is very hard to find odd sounds on a air cooled engine as unlike a water cooled one the sound is not damped by a water jacket. Hughlysess has posted the right way to confirm if it is pinging so follow his instructions to find it out.

If the engine still runs the same as before the issue then it will be something else that is at fault. You need to examine each part of the bike to eliminate a possible problem. I could even be a baffle in the exhaust that is breaking loose and banging around inside.
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Gp81
Posted on Monday, June 01, 2015 - 08:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I have a drummer on my 06 and a similar sound a while back. Turned out to be the packing burned up and the screen inside was bouncing around. Is your can a modded stock can I.e. original drummer or a stainless?? The stainless can cannot be taken apart.
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Ktmguy
Posted on Tuesday, June 02, 2015 - 07:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I have a noticable lifter noise occasionally after a hard run, or randomly sitting at an intersection etc. Just a noise I am familiar with, but its not often.

The exhaust is something I had been thinking of, I mean I have beat on it to see if I hear a rattle and hear none. But the tone almost seemed to have changed and come to think of it, I went on a 300 mile ride a few weeks ago and recall at the time as I was going up some of the mountains the exhaust would sound muffled, then after a bit would be normal again. Perhaps something was moving around in there. After leaving the mountains the 2 hour ride home burning down the interstate may have finished it off as I started noticing the sound the next day. I think this is where I will go next. Pull of the drummer.. GP, yes it is the modded stock can so I assume it is rebuildable?
I sure appreciate the ideas guys.
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Ktmguy
Posted on Tuesday, June 02, 2015 - 08:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Am I correct the rear wheel comes off to pull the exhaust?
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Hughlysses
Posted on Tuesday, June 02, 2015 - 08:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

^ I'd guess you either have to pull the rear wheel or remove the muffler. There would seem to be about the same amount of work either way. Call Kevin Drummer, I'm sure he can give you a quick answer:

(from KDFab's website) (828) 381-7546

I'm sure he can advise you on re-packing it as well.
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Ktmguy
Posted on Tuesday, June 02, 2015 - 09:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks for the number, I have it in my phone already. He's a great guy and invited me to his shop about 18 months ago and did some tuning on my bike for me. I think the rear wheel needs to come off to pull the exhaust because I don't think I can get the end cap off while it is still on the bike. Screws on top of can) But I will double check when I get home.
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Ktmguy
Posted on Tuesday, June 16, 2015 - 08:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I just wanted to update this situation.. SO folks didn't think I asked for advice then left!

At any rate I have not had time to address it further as we had been away on a camping trip, and daughter is home from college and her check engine light was on in her jeep, causing it to fail inspection.

As some have mentioned I am still leaning towards the exhaust. I rode it to work Yesterday, and it makes the sound, hot, or cold.. and I notice that when I am in traffic riding, that the "pinging" echos loud off the cars on the left side (side my exhaust tip points to But not so much off cars on the right side. I simply havent had time to pull the exhaust and take it apart to see if the packing is gone. I'll Update once I do that , it may be this weekend. Again thanks for the help!
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Xbimmer
Posted on Tuesday, June 16, 2015 - 10:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

You don't have to pull the wheel to remove the muffler. Follow the manual for reinstall sequence, important. To make it easier next time reverse the rear band clamps so you can access the nuts from the left. Do NOT over torque the bands front or rear. Antiseize the inlet pipe. Check the side stand mount bolts while the muffler's off.

You don't absolutely have to change out the front band clamp but if you want you can get suitable t-bolt clamps from big rig truck, marine, or hose supply shops.
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Ktmguy
Posted on Saturday, June 20, 2015 - 03:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Update.

Finally got some alone time today to do some wrenching, pulled the exhaust off, and took the nice shiny drummer plate off and guess what? No packing.. At all, I take that back there was a little 3 inch by 4 inch square that had worked its way down Inside the cage.. How I do not know. Actually it seems to have been that way for a whole because the metal cage had banged around aginst the drummer end cap enough to leave some shine deep grooves in it. I cannot say as of yet if this will fix the noise I am hearing, but sure cant hurt. On the other side I can imagine a slightly lean condition with no packing in there as well. I WIll pick some up Tuesday (bike shops around here arent open Mondays) and put it back together and see what happens. Any secrets as to the type of packing to use, I tend to use FMF on my ktm. Seems there was some high temp silicone around the end cap when it was assembled, probably should put that back in there as well.
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Twisteduly
Posted on Sunday, June 21, 2015 - 09:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Check his website, they have an upgrade material
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Natexlh1000
Posted on Monday, June 22, 2015 - 10:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I thought that silicone stuff makes fumes that kill oxygen sensors.
Or is this a "heard on internet therefore must be true" thing?
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Ktmguy
Posted on Monday, June 22, 2015 - 10:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Im not sure about the silicone, but I called him a moment ago, and since he is so close (about an hour) he said to just run it up to his house and he will rebuild it and put a new cage inside and wrap it with the new material.. WHich is all good because I buggered one of those nice screws getting the endcap off.
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Twisteduly
Posted on Tuesday, June 23, 2015 - 10:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

That's what I like to hear, once I can swing a drummer and a tune thats the direction I am going.
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Uly_man
Posted on Wednesday, June 24, 2015 - 11:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The problem with acoustic packing is that eventually it will break down and get blown out of the exhaust. It is well known that a big V-Twin engine can be the worst offenders for this. The other thing is rusting of the internal parts so it may not just be the packing that needs replacing but a re-build as well.
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Ktmguy
Posted on Wednesday, June 24, 2015 - 03:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Was an eye opener today.. Spent a little over an hour at Kevins house with him. I questioned why I simply didnt want to re-pack with a fiberglass packing. He built a brand new cage for inside the bike, because the new steel packing material only needs one wrap around, the internal cage needs to be larger. he cleaned up all the hardware buttoned it up nice and pretty, and I cant wait to put it on and try it out. This new stuff should last the life of the exhaust. After seeing it, I believe that would be a fairly accurate statement. This is my second trip to his house, the first was for some tuning help. Always a top notch experience and top notch guy. Now Ill get it back together and see if it solves the issue, im hopeful, but if it doesnt at least it something eliminated.
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Ktmguy
Posted on Saturday, June 27, 2015 - 08:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The exhaust seems to have corrected the problem it's also seems to run a tad cooler and seems to pull a bit harder in the low and mid, I only got a 12 mile ride on it between raindrops to try it out ill head up into the mountains tomorrow. Thanks for the help guys!
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Hughlysses
Posted on Saturday, June 27, 2015 - 10:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

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