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Buell Forum » Big, Bad & Dirty (Buell XB12X Ulysses Adventure Board) » BB&D Archives » Archive through June 29, 2008 » Sidestand plate to engine case bolts....grrrrr...... « Previous Next »

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Ratbuell
Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2008 - 10:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Fortunately I caught it (not literally) before it fell on my S1W in the garage. THAT would have pissed me off.

Rode the S2 to work today, this morning it looked like the Uly was leaning a little more to port than usual there in the garage. Almost a stock S2-ish lean. Hm. Probably just tired, it's early, wife's sick, not much sleep...no biggie.

Get home, go right to work on the Jeep that needs a new exhaust, trying to pull as much of the manifold set off as I can before dusk and bugs end the fun (could they possibly use ANY more bolts to hold those damn things on a 4.0???).

Give up due to bugs biting the crap out of me, go in the garage and the Uly seems to be even *farther* over. Strange. Put it on a pitbull and check the sidestand. Pivot pin is tight, the stand does not move in the bracket...but the bracket moves against the engine case.

Doing some research, and having looked at the sidestand service kit, it appears the kit includes a new stand, new bracket, and new pivot pin / clip. Not new bolts (but I'll have to doublecheck when I get to work in the AM). My bike did not need the stand recall - it already had the pin/clip assembly on it and I ran the VIN before I bought it to make sure. So....what are folks using for replacement bolts to hold the stand to the case? Grade 8's with washers? I'm going to check, but is there an updated factory part for those two bolts?

The real bitch is, I just ordered an XT stand and bracket today at work to retrofit my X; I wanted the larger 'foot'. Now I'm tempted to just leave the bike disassembled until the new parts come in. <sigh>

And for the record, my little adventure Thursday sent the bike *away* from the sidestand, onto its right side....
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Ratbuell
Posted on Sunday, June 22, 2008 - 09:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Well, the service kit is indeed only a stand and pin/clip. The bolts "say" they're grade 8...but they don't look like any grade 8 bolt I ever used, and I used to build concert and theatre rigging for a living so I know bolts.

Guess I'll hit the hardware store tomorrow and see what I can find in a real grade 8.
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Froggy
Posted on Sunday, June 22, 2008 - 11:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Perhaps the stand got caught on that machine that hit your bike? Causing it to stress the bolt, and now its bending?

Good luck with your fix : )
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Teeps
Posted on Sunday, June 22, 2008 - 06:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Rat, Here's what I did before the recall was announced.
Parts:
(2)Bolts, 1 1/2" Allen head alloy steel 5/16x18 (black)
(4)Washer flat, grade 8
(2)Washer lock, grade 8

Assemble two sets of bolts with 1 lock washer followed by two flat washers.
Place a drop of clean engine oil on the bolt threads and the washer stack.
Assemble and torque to 27lbs/ft.
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Ratbuell
Posted on Sunday, June 22, 2008 - 09:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Nah, the truck only hit the front wheel and sent the bike over.

Teeps - good tips, thanks. I'll keep that in mind and post my results. I'm thinking about 1.5" grade 8s with gr8 washers, but I'll update based on the hardware store's inventory, lol.
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Miamiuly
Posted on Monday, June 23, 2008 - 08:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Ever since I joined this site, I have parked the Buell to the left of my other bike.

If it ever falls on someone else's bike due to a sidestand failure.....well....
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Ratbuell
Posted on Monday, June 23, 2008 - 12:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

My problem is the garage is one open bay (the other filled with a "project" GLHS that has about six years' dust on it). 1 FLHP, 1 S2, 1 S1W and 1 Uly fills it in pretty quick, esp. if I park them so at any given time any of them could be moved outside without having to play "bike tetris".
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Sekalilgai
Posted on Monday, June 23, 2008 - 10:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Joe
Sorry to hear of your recent run of bad luck. Did the bolts shear off or bend? I just got the bits for the XT sidestand today but had not ordered the mounting bolts....hmm maybe more to follow
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Ratbuell
Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 10:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Bent. Caught just in time, I suppose.
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Sekalilgai
Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 01:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Thanks for the heads up...
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Alameda
Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 06:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I just picked my bike up off of my car. Not a happy camper. My bolts sheared off and the kickstand is now in my tank bag. It is not very useful there to say the least.
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Lovehamr
Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 06:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

After the recall was performed on my Uly and while 4 techs and a Mgr. were standing looking at it trying to figure out why the left T/S wouldn't work, both bolts failed spectacularly sending my poor Uly crashing to the floor, right square in the middle of the service bay.

And I didn't shoot anyone!

Steve
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Jphish
Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 07:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Rat Buell - Yep...just had a similar experience in Yellowknife on the trip to the Yukon that wasnt...nuther story. Pulled into the Northern Lights motel parking lot after 180 hard miles, put the stand down, leaned it over... and it just kept going, going, gone. First time it's ever been down in 5000mi. didnt bend the bolts so just leaned it to the right, up against a fence and tightened 'em up with a box end wrench. A bitch to get to - seems like you almost have to take the muffler off to access them to get any real "purchase" and ultimately tight enough. Before we launched on the Fort Simpson 300 mi dirt road to Whitehorse found rear shock leaking - was wondering why the rear suspension felt so mushy the last 500 mi. Aborted trip. More on experience on separate posting later. Sorry you had same malfunction. Mines an 08 - thought they'd 'fixed' the problem on that year model. Don't they use tread locker on stuff like that ?? 'Chow' John
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Alameda
Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 08:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

so now I'm at a fork in the road--tap out the old broken bolts or get whatever part (case??) new that the bolts went into originally.

Either way I'm not using the OEM bolts and I will use some good locktite.
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Teeps
Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 09:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Alameda,

There is nothing wrong with the OEM bolts. They work just fine when they are torqued to the proper spec. And, no amount of loctite would have prevented "your bike's" bolts from breaking.

If the bolts broke off clean and were not cross threaded, they should unscrew with the assistance of a sharpened center punch.
From there you can repair it as you please.

A few posts up is how I insured my side stand until the recall was done.

If your'e up to it you can check this thread from 2 years ago:
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/142 838/209756.html?1151612435

http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/142 838/287535.html?1152025586
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Xbimmer
Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 11:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Teeps, doesn't this stuff make you a little nervous? Does me. I liked your fix back then, but guys with '08s and shoulda-been-fixed '06's are breaking the bolts.

Aside from the fact that the height of the UlyX may put a lot of strain on the plate of a badly designed mount system (IMMHO), wouldn't the Recall have assured that the problem was resolved?

For anybody having problems with recalled '06's my first suspicion would lie with the reusing of the original bolts or improper torquing by an oaf tech.

I recently read here that somebody's front tiebar bolt disappeared, these are the same bolts as used in the sidestand assembly.

I'm going with aftermarket next time I pull the muffler.
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Ratbuell
Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 08:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

My concern is still that these bolts look like regular zinc coated bolts...not like any grade 8's I've ever seen. IIRC, all graded hardware under the SAE system has to have tic marks on the head - 3 tics for grade 5 and six for grade 8. Also all graded hardware I've ever used is not coated and looks nearly polished, for easier identification of cracks and fractures.

Mark’s Standard Handbook for Mechanical Engineers lists Grade 5 fasteners as 120 ksi fasteners. This means the tensile strength is 120,000 lbs per square inch. It also lists Grade 8’s as 150 ksi fasteners meaning the tensile strength is 150,000 lbs per square inch. Also, the ultimate shear strength of a fastener is typically about 60% of its ultimate tension strength. So given a certain diameter (cross-sectional area) and strength rating, someone can figure out how much load that fastener can carry in both tension and shear. From http://www.rockcrawler.com/techreports/fasteners/i ndex.asp

I doubt our Uly's are *that* heavy...
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Teeps
Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 09:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Xbimmer Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 11:13 pm:

Teeps, doesn't this stuff make you a little nervous? Does me. I liked your fix back then, but guys with '08s and shoulda-been-fixed '06's are breaking the bolts.


If "my engineer's" original analysis of Rhinowerx's broken bolts (photo) was correct. The same pattern has repeated. That is the side stand bolts did not get torqued to spec. Why or how is unknown. My best guess; the factory locking compound on the bolts was beyond its shelf life. So instead of being a lubricant/locking compound, it caused increased thread friction, which caused a false torque (clamping force) to be used.
So I'm not concerned in the least.


http://www.rhinowerx.com/fotos/data/media/96/IMG_3 187.jpg
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Alameda
Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 12:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Thanks for the feedback. My bolts looked just like Rhinowherx bolts. I will see if I can get them out of there and then either get new ones from Buell or Grade 8's from the hardware store and then torque them up properly.

I was not aware that if you see a bolt with white locktite, then you can only use it once as mentioned in one of the threads. I think the shifter mount bolt is like that and I reused it. Just put on the Touratech foot pegs and then needed to shorten my shifter to make up for the extra width of the pegs. I just put some new locktite on there over the white. Hmmm. I'm not as worried about this one failing but when I replace the others I might replace it just to be safe.

Still love riding the bike.
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Sekalilgai
Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 10:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

took my sidestand off tonight (after a little wrestling with the muffler) and noticed that while the bolts looked seated, the rear bolt was a little bent. Front bolt appeared ok. The new sidestand does indeed have a third hole as previous threads have suggested. I haven't lowered the bike yet as the grill-paint is still drying on the muffler!
BTW I did replace the bolts with (claimed) grade 8 hardware using the two washer/one lockwasher approach (thanks Teeps).... wish me luck, hopefully I won't be trying to dodge a falling Uly....






getting that spring on was a challenge to the feeble-minded like me ...so I took a 20cent tool to it....



(Message edited by sekalilgai on June 25, 2008)
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Xbimmer
Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 12:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

The new sidestand does indeed have a third hole as previous threads have suggested.

Wow, I'm assuming that XT's and maybe other '08s have a three-bolt stand plate? I posted that as one solution waaaay back in the first fallover threads, glad to see it's happened finally.

I'm also assuming different castings to allow the third hole in that tab. Sekalilgai, did you space the two bolts from UNDER the bracket to account for the unused tab resting on the case and preventing the bracket from fitting flush to the case? If not, that would concern me!

Nice idea with the pennies, thanks.
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Sekalilgai
Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 01:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Xbimmer
good catch! I was happy to see it bolt up that I missed the lack of clearance on the 'tang'. I think I will space the underside of the bracket (or is that top!). There is sufficient clearance with a single washer moved over but there is some draft in the crankcase casting.


(Message edited by sekalilgai on June 26, 2008)
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Xbimmer
Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 11:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

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Rwven
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 06:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Just took a quick look under my XT, 3 bolts!
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Teeps
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 09:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

IMO, the side stand bracket should not be shimmed with washers because:

1. the bracket needs all the surface contact it can get to spread the load.

2. the washers could provide a fulcrum for the bolt to bend, resulting in more broken bolts.



(Message edited by teeps on June 27, 2008)
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Ratbuell
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 09:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I agree with Teeps. IMO, they should have put the third bolt on a horizontal (not vertical) plane, going into the side of the case. Bracket should be L shaped, with a face pointing up on the kickstand side. That would brace part of the bracket against the side of the case and help prevent the bracket from torquing in the first place.

Got mine put on with *real* grade 8s from the hardware store, and a pair of hardened washers under the boltheads (with red loctite and not shelf-hardened threadlocker). That's another thing I've never seen a graded bolt come with - a built-in washer. We shall see....
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Xbimmer
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 11:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Guys if you'll take a real close look at his pic above with the plate mounted you'll see that the unused tab IS PREVENTING the plate from fitting flush already, it is resting against the unmachined part of the casting of the two-bolt case.

I do agree about the fulcrum part though... could be possible... and yes it would work better with a crossbolt or two.
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Sekalilgai
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 12:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

there was a little grinding and sanding and painting on the vestigial tab (probably should've just cut it off but the spline/rib on the other side...) From the wear marks I could see on the old sidestand bracket, the washers offered no less contact area. Meanwhile there is a big bean bag sitting to the left of the bike....
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