| Author | Message | ||
     Isham |
Buells ARE expensive for what they are. When you can get an R1 with all the goodies standard they are overpriced. We're due for a redesign... (Message edited by isham on May 05, 2007) | ||
| Spike |
And what does that say for every other non-hypersport bike on the planet, let alone every other air-cooled bike available? Are we pricing bikes based on horsepower output now? The XB series bikes are very unique and innovative. When compared to other unique bikes on the market with similar (or worse) performance the XBs are priced quite competitively. Even with all that said, the MSRP of a new R1 is a full $1,100 more than that of an XB12. Speaking of platform redesign, how about the RC51? The current RC51 was released in '02 (same as XB platform) and yet it still has an MSRP that is fully $1,500 higher than that of an XB12. Also, what "goodies" are you referring to with the R1? | ||
| Spatten1 |
The current RC51 was released in '02 (same as XB platform) and yet it still has an MSRP that is fully $1,500 higher than that of an XB12. Yeah, but they've been amortizing tooling on the Buell engine since 1955. Tear one open, you'll see plenty of very old parts inside. The air cooled Ducati is expensive because it is really entry level into the exclusive Ducati club for many of the buyers. That is why it holds resale value so well. It is certainly not priced on value for the dollar. Buell does not have that cache yet because it does not have any ultra high end models. If you can't see the value in the R1 for the money you have not ridden one. | ||
| Jaimec |
Buells don't compete with the R1. Compare the price of the XB12Ss to the Aprilia Tuono, Ducati Monster, MV Agusta Brutale 910, Benelli TnT or any other European naked and the Buell is a bargain. The XB9 models are downright STEALS. If you compare to the Japanese, you are ALWAYS going to lose. They are the masters of getting the most out of the cheapest materials possible. What they do with them is incredible, but it's a whole 'nother mind set. So if you want inexpensive, look no farther than your local Japanese motorcycle dealership. Coming soon (and even CHEAPER) will be your local Korean and Chinese motorcycle dealerships. Buell is right where it should be. | ||
| Spatten1 |
As a finance guy, I think the Buell is a bit over priced. As a guy that just got off my bike, I am just thrilled with the lump at the moment. Fact is, for whatever you pay, you do get the one thing HD does best, the pulses in your chest and the thump that no one else duplicates. I got a warning ticket today and had to ride slow for the next 45 minutes. No other bike would feel this good going both fast and slow. | ||
| Rocketman |
Consider the Monster S2R 1000. Its engine is equally antiquated (air-cooled, SOHC), the overall design of the bike is well over 10 years old, the componentry is no better than anything on the XB, and it still sells for $10,495. I'd argue there's a lot more components on the Duc, and the overall percentage of said components are of higher quality materials. Ask yourself why Buell went to Italy for the XB chassis and not China like they did the wheels in order to save money. Rocket | ||
| Jaimec |
Other than the steel used in the muffler, I have no problems with Buell components. Especially the XB models. Some of the parts on my Cyclone seemed kinda "cheap off the shelf" but the same can't be said for the XBs. Now if only they made the mufflers from stainless steel... | ||
| Cgocifer |
"I guess in addition to being a world class racer you're also a CFO." Hey, Bullshi!!er: Now that wasn't really warranted was it? Never said I was a world class racer did I. Please show me where I did, I'd like to laugh. This forum is for sharing opinions and suggestions. Juvenile response man, nice!  "The air cooled Ducati is expensive because it is really entry level into the exclusive Ducati club for many of the buyers. That is why it holds resale value so well. It is certainly not priced on value for the dollar. Buell does not have that cache yet because it does not have any ultra high end models." That's all I was saying. Look at the cost to profit ratio for the XB series. The engine is very inexpensive to manufacture (no cooling system, no desmodromic valve train, etc.), the wheels are from China, etc, etc. Harley Davidson overprices everything they sell because of the supposed mystique and name. Buell as a brand hasn't achieved the same mystique to warrant the high prices. Look at a typical in-line 600 cc sport bike. Overhead cams, water cooling, titanium valves, some very high tech. internals, etc. Those things out perform our 1200 cc bikes and sell for about 9 grand these days. Not really a comparison, just using that as an example of how Buell owners pay too much for the technology offered. Do I have a Buell? Yes, do I like it? Yes! I just won't pay for a brand new one. Unfortunately, thousands of people won't either. There in lies the problem for the Buell brand. | ||
| Cycleaddict |
another reason jap bikes sell cheaper is they build a shit pile of em' . (quantity generally allows the prices to go lower !) | ||
| Kpg2713 |
You guys are right about pricing. I don't agree with comparing the bike to nearly anything, because buell isn't like any other brands. European bikes or jap bikes neither are in the same class. However, they are still competition, and when pricing, you need to keep your competition in mind. If the xb gets a major overhaul or we see a new model then I would almost definitely pay the price for it. But, not many people want to spend 1 or 2 thousand more for a bike that doesn't technically do anything better. Yeah, yeah it has this and that fuel in the frame whatever. There are plenty of other bikes with character out there too. I guess it just comes down to the fact that either 1) buell needs to lower pricing, or 2) they need a new model before it's too late. | ||
| Jaimec |
Actually, Cgocifer, the Harley engine is NOT that cheap to produce. Air cooled engines are more difficult to cast because of all the finning required. Water cooling allows a simpler engine casting. Also, remember the engine is the only part of the Buell that is Union-made, so that alone is going to increase the price of the part... (Message edited by jaimec on May 06, 2007) | ||
| Vr1203 |
Quote....Also, remember the engine is the only part of the Buell that is Union-made, so that alone is going to increase the price of the part... Greed is to play in this country by all parts involved so if you want to start bashing the middle class start bashing the stock market,CEO's and the $$ elite too. The Japanese don't have the big class/wage differences and their bottom line reflects it. | ||
| Jhanz |
I would agree that Buells are relatively expensive and do feel that certain minor components on my XB are cheaply made. I didn't buy my XB for "super high performance", but I do think that there are basic areas where the XB's should be improved. For instance, the primary chain and the fact that it and many other things seem to be mis-adjusted right out the door. Another thing is the cheap side-stands that are guaranteed to come loose. These are areas that I have seen so many postings on BadWeb about, that are examples of poor assembly. Lets be honest, many people, including some of the good people here on BadWeb, are in denial about the quality and level of mechanical servicing regarding the Buell line. I've had two XB's and both of them had primary chains that were way too tight, and both had side-stands that came loose, AND both had noisy, leaking exhaust gaskets, due to the header bolts not being secured properly out the door. I am very confident that part of the reason why you often read on here about primary sprockets coming loose, is because primary chains are consistently being overtightened. Just my opinion, strong though it is. | ||
| Rocketman |
How sickening. With all you guys in agreement, I can't even get a good argument going!  Rocket | ||
| Ulendo |
price = quality? italian = quality? don't tell my boss - the high zoot Benellis we brought in are going back to Italy in pieces. 2 out of 3 lit the %$#@*! catalyst on fire, had 4' of flame coming out of the pipe, and damn near melted the rear ends off the bikes. these are brand new T.N.T.'s, and Cafe Racers. I'll pass on the Italian BBQ's, thanks. As for Buell pricing...who here intends to trade in, and buy a new bike every year or two? look at the cost over say 6, or 8 years, and #'s for Buells are cheaper simply because we don't feel any need to keep up with the Jones's kid...R6's, and R1's wont sell if marketed the same way, as almost no one could afford to replace them every other year. | ||
| Kowpow225 |
I think the buell brand does very well for itself including the technology, features, quality etc. A lot of people want to talk about the engine, myself included sometimes, being underpowered. But the truth is that these engines are very advanced for just some old, air-cooled, pushrod, 2 valve per cylinder 984/1203 cc mill. So there lies our 'problem'. The best thing about these bikes are also their worst. That soulful gotta love it underpowered lump. Sometimes what we like the most is what we despise the most. | ||
| Rocketman |
It's easy to let passion cloud ones judgement. Reality seldom matters when it comes to the purchase cost of motorcycles. If we like a motorcycle and our funds are there, it takes a brave person to deny oneself the pleasure of making the purchase. Rocket | ||
| 4cammer |
My '07 9R listed at what,$8700.00? ALL of the repli-racer 600's cost more than that or the same. I guarantee that none of them would make me go to the garage just to look at it, or enjoy just hearing it idle. Say nothing of the incredible handling and right now powerband. People have forgotten (well, most have that I know) that a bike should stir something in you, not make you wet because your 600/1000 is the current flavor of the week or just won a magazine "shoot-out". | ||
| Cycleaddict |
one of the reasons i ride a Buell is to be "different" and "different" always seems to cost ($$$) more. the higher cost factor of owning a Buell helps keep our "steed" from being mainstream ! now tell me how many of us would continue to be Buell owners if they were mainstream ? | ||
| Cgocifer |
"one of the reasons i ride a Buell is to be "different" and "different" always seems to cost ($$$) more. the higher cost factor of owning a Buell helps keep our "steed" from being mainstream ! now tell me how many of us would continue to be Buell owners if they were mainstream ?" Now, that is a benefit of over pricing. I don't feel I over paid though because I refused to pay 10995 for mine. I just did a ton of research and kept my patience at bey until I found a 2004 XB12S with 1200 miles on the clock. Basically, a brand new bike with most of the extended warranty and a price tag of 6300 bucks! Now, some may worry about having a full warranty, but, with the roughly 4 grand I saved, I could use that for repairs if needed. I paid 40 bucks for the shop manual because the bike is so easy to work on, I probably wouldn't even need to take it to the dealer if something were to break. | ||
| Paochow |
+1 Somewhere along the way I transitioned from buying the latest shoot-out winners to buying bikes that I desired. I'm not sure exactly when it happened, after owning a few sewing machine sportbikes, that had all the character of a blender or refrigerator, I found I could sell them with little regret. Different is better to me. I will admit I do go out in the garage to stare at my Uly, not exactly sure why, but it sure is fun to look at. | ||
| Cgocifer |
I like seeing the mechanical bits of a motorcycle. Plastic fairings are boring to look at after a while. I like the beauty of the twin, the cooling fins, the headers, the frame, all the bolts, and etc. Mechanical beauty. A true gear-head bike (all of the Buells) for sure! | ||
| Trojan |
Unless the Buells are using different tuning in the UK I don't see how you can say 85hp is the tops for an XB12. There is obviously some diffeence between DIN and SAE figures on dynos, because US figures are almost invariably higher than we get in the uK with the same bike. I have dynoed 3 stock XB12's over the last few years and none have recorded more than 87bhp at the rear wheel. Buell pricing in the USA also seems a lot more competitive than it is over here in Europe, where the XB range has to fight pretty much head on against all the other naked sports bikes, with only around £1000 separating all of them. Facor in the discounts available on Japanese/Italian/Austrian bikes and the Buell often comes out more expensive. Looking in this week's MCN I could buy a brand new 06 model KTM SD for £6999, an Aprilia Tuono for £6599, a Yamaha FZ-1 for under £6000 but the Buell XB12 would cost £7500. That is a big diference to pay for a bike that lacks the performance of the others. Bikes with a comparable performance to the Buell XB12, such as the new Aprilia Shiver, Suzuki SV650, Honda Hornet etc are almost £2500 (US$5000) cheaper. The Ulysses is around £600 more expensive than the new Triumph Tiger, and only £800 less than a 2007 KTM 990 Adventure, so is priced right in the middle of an extremely competitive market place. Maybe BMW would be a fairer comparison with the XB and these are much more expensive, although BMW build quality, dealer service and residual values are also much better , at least here in England. | ||
| Spike |
I can't speak for the Shiver since we don't get those in the US, but the SV650 and the Hornet are both entry-level budget bikes of the highest degree. Aside from spring preload on the rear, the Hornet doesn't even have adjustable suspension. The SV650 is completely out-motored by the XB12, while the Hornet only comes close to the XB12 in peak power when it's spun up above 10k rpm. | ||
| Trojan |
The SV650 is completely out-motored by the XB12, Having raced against some almost stock SV650's over the last couple of years, I can assure you that the SV is certainly not outmotored by the XB12 at all on the track. The XB12 may have adjustable suspension, but I would class the stock rear shock as a budget item that should be replaced at the first opportunity if you really want it to handle properly. You could buy a brand new SV650 and you'll have enough left over to invest in Ohlins suspension and still have change from the cost of an XB12. | ||
| Budo |
"Buell has consistently claimed 103bhp" That would be measured at the crank. Allow 10~15% loss and end up with something in the high 80's at the rear wheel. It has been my experience observing the kids in my club and around that brute HP and straight line acceleration is very important to them. Because most of them can't ride around a corner but all of the can pin the throttle. So as soon as the road strightens out it is a drag race. And pity the guy who comes in last because all his buds are gonna give him grief about it. This is where Buell lags behind. Believe me, not one of those kids wants to be last and they will go buy a 'Busa or whatever just to keep up on the straights. | ||
| Spike |
There's really not much left to discuss then. If SVs in the UK are equal with XBs for $5k less, the XB is way overpriced and should be put out to pasture. However, here in the US the SV650 is down a full 10hp at the very peak on even the most conservative dyno and at 4k rpm is only making half the horsepower of an XB12. It comes complete with budget componentry throughout, brings zero technological innovation to the market, and appears to be the modern v-twin equivalent of the '80s UJM. On top of that it'll turn the head of no one other than the entry-level motorcycle shopper. It's a fun bike at a great price, but that's it. | ||
| Trojan |
There's really not much left to discuss then. If SVs in the UK are equal with XBs for $5k less, the XB is way overpriced and should be put out to pasture. However, here in the US the SV650 is down a full 10hp at the very peak on even the most conservative dyno and at 4k rpm is only making half the horsepower of an XB12. It comes complete with budget componentry throughout, brings zero technological innovation to the market, and appears to be the modern v-twin equivalent of the '80s UJM. On top of that it'll turn the head of no one other than the entry-level motorcycle shopper. It's a fun bike at a great price, but that's it. You miss my point. The SV may be down on power to the XB, but it weighs a lot less and performance is comparable. Nobody in their right mind would compare the dyno reaqdings of an SV at 4,000rpm to an XB, when it makes peak power at 9K. At almost half the price of an XB they sell by the boat load here in the UK and thoughout Europe, and are as at home on the race track as they are in the hands of a novice. Yes they are a budget bike, but they are a very complete and rounded package that is incredible value for money, which is why they outsell the XB by at least 20 to 1. As for technological innovation, look a little deeper and you'll find as much innovation in most new bikes as you will on the XB, even bikes costing a lot less. Fly by wire throttles, switcheable mapping, radial brakes etc will be commonplace on even budget bikes within 12 months, with new innovation coming thick and fast all the time. The innovations on the XB are now 5 years old, and are not enough to make the bike any better than the opposition product in handling and certainly not in power. As I have stated before, I am a dyed in the wool Buell fan, and as we make a living from Buell accessories, it means a lot to us to have an attractive and competitive Buell motorcycle on the market so that we have more potential customers ourselves. I just hope that any 'new' model that Buell release this year is able to leapfrog the opposition and establish Buell as a major player in the European market and not just a peripheral player. | ||
| Brumbear |
i paid 9100 out the door in fall for 06 ss I don't think it was overpriced at all | ||
| Cgocifer |
"Having raced against some almost stock SV650's over the last couple of years, I can assure you that the SV is certainly not outmotored by the XB12 at all on the track. The XB12 may have adjustable suspension, but I would class the stock rear shock as a budget item that should be replaced at the first opportunity if you really want it to handle properly" Handle properly? That's why the Buell won Bike magazine's 50 bike shootout for the best handling production motorcycle on the road right? |
