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Hammer71
| Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 01:46 pm: |
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Heres the deal..I currently have a race kitted 9r and was wondering if adding a TFI would be beneficial or not. Pleased with the top end ( 5 grand and I'm gone) but I am looking for a touch more in the low to mid range area. Will this help or am I looking in the wrong direction? |
Glitch
| Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 02:33 pm: |
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What do you mean by race kitted? If you mean Race ECM, K&N filter, and Buell race can, the TFI isn't going to help you at all. If you have the standard ECM, K&N filter, cut air box, and any other aftermarket pipe, than you may well need the TFI. But that's only if you're running lean. The TFI can only add fuel. The only way to know for sure if you're running lean, is a dyno with a sniffer. |
Surveyor
| Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 05:12 pm: |
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Get your bike dynoed (make sure the shop can give you the air fuel ratio readings) if it's running rich in the mid range (which I bet it is)then a TFI is no good as it will only add fuel (richen the mixture).......oops just realised that's what Glitch said...."great minds....etc." |
Hammer71
| Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 06:11 pm: |
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Cool thanks for the info |
M1combat
| Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 07:49 pm: |
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If it's a full race kit then no the TFI won't help due to the reasons Glitch stated. However... A Drummer will help the low/mid range tremendously . I seem to remember that Kevin said that the Drummer with JUST a race ECM and filter is very close to spot on. I can't remember though... I'd ask him. |
Glitch
| Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 08:05 pm: |
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I think you remember right M1. |
Buellj79
| Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 08:16 pm: |
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if you want one pm me J |
Tq_freak
| Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 08:20 pm: |
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Buellj79 -- r u sellin a used one? |
Hammer71
| Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 10:39 am: |
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Buellj79...hell yeah i want one...pm me And yes its the full race kit ecm ehaust and filter. Feels like I lost some in the low to mid range but gained a ton up top. Just want to balance it out. Thanks for the feedback |
Hammer71
| Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 10:39 am: |
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Buellj79...hell yeah i want one...pm me And yes its the full race kit ecm exhaust and filter. Feels like I lost some in the low to mid range but gained a ton up top. Just want to balance it out. Thanks for the feedback |
Jerseyguy
| Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 11:56 am: |
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I did extensive A/F testing on my 9 and determined that if you have a race ECM, open airbox and a Drummer, you are already a bit rich in almost all conditions so the TFI is of no value. Go to www.kdfab.com and click on the "On the road data runs" applet at the bottom of the page. I forgot to add that the TFI was designed to run with the stock ECM and not the Race ECM. (Message edited by jerseyguy on August 10, 2005) |
Hogs
| Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 01:54 pm: |
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HEy.. On my 12 with the above mods, BUT I use the Force exhaust on it and my settings are 3:30, 3:00, 4:00, and pot # 4 = 7:30 all is fine, Perhaps the Force can flows better up top and needs more fuel just my guess... |
Hogs
| Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 01:55 pm: |
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OH... I`m still using the stock 12 header! |
Jerseyguy
| Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 04:35 pm: |
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As Mike Norris has pointed out, the Drummer on a 12 can benefit from the TFIs extra fuel. It's just that the 9 doesn't need it. |
Hogs
| Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 04:44 pm: |
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Hey Jerseyguy, Yeah I seem to remember him saying that,(old age) HEy Mike if ya tune in what are your settings now? |
Kds1
| Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 04:49 pm: |
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Hogs, Mike's settings are 4,7.5,6,8.25... Kevin www.kdfab.com |
Hogs
| Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 05:25 pm: |
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Hey Kevin, Thanks Bud Interesting I will increase mine more and see what happeneds, the 7.5 and 6 is interesting,Just wondering is the #4 pot the only one that the ecm has to relearn when you make changes to that , and the other pots work right away ,no need to ride it in? |
Kds1
| Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 09:10 pm: |
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If you make the adjustment of either pot, ride it for a while at learning rpm and turn the key off a few times during the ride and restart the bike...We've had real good results with this method...We couldn't get enough fuel for the loud Drummer with the last pot on 8 so Mike bumped it a little more and things started improving....only one pot at a time was moved while dynoing this setup to try to find the best numbers.....a rule of thumb, if a header steps, it will usually yield slower exhaust movement at low rpm's, therefore not using as much fuel, and a reversed cone meg doesn't work till late anyway and the bigger the outlet hole the slower the exhaust will move....hope this helps ... Kevin www.kdfab.com |
Hogs
| Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 10:39 pm: |
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Hey thanks KEvin...I made some changes there tonight ,went for a ride about 20 miles or so,had a few coffee with the guys and gals,left came back the long way home of course always got to do that, :-) Anywho maybe 40 50 miles total, here our my changes from pot 1 and on: 3.5 , 3 , 4 , 7.5 =start point 3.5 , 7 , 6 , 7.5= New All is well, same smack it in 1st and up like a Stallion, But really notice no big difference to speak of ( Deer all out tonight had to watch out for them Critters ) Hmmm , I think I`ll ride it like this for a few days and see if I notice any changes, I thought tonight with them changes I wd. Strange,I wonder just how much extra fuel I`m now getting or Just how much these pots add when that many numbers changed all at once, This fuel injection gear is nice, However unless you got the tools for it one is sort of out in left field sort of speaking... I really have no plms. to speak off down in the lower rpms. I always run with the engine breathing good ,always keeping the revs. up and if I hit it in the right gear --right rpms This baby couldn`t work any better, However if one is cruising and wacks it in too high of a gear, you get what you should expect bog,no get up and go,so Drop the sucker a gear or two right rpms and away you go...Thanks for all the info there Kevin I`ll let ya and all know if this TFI starts to make a difference or NoT ! LoL |
M1combat
| Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 10:46 pm: |
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Keep in mind hogs... pot four adjusts all of the other pots once the AFV is adjusted. If you adjust four, ride it in with ONLY that adjustment, then make your mods to the other ones. In other words, if you move four, don't move any others until you've let the AFV settle with four where you put it. If you don't need to adjust four, you can adjust the other three at will and not worry about it. I've found the best way to get # 4 right w/o dyno is to run at about 4500 RPM in fifth for a while. Once the engine gets to operating temp it will start to surge a little if #4 is too low. |
Hogs
| Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 11:11 pm: |
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Hey M1 Sup, Thanks pal that makes sense then,Since I did NoT ride it long enough to let the ecm learn but then again since I did not touch pot four tonight on my run I still did not notice any difference and do you think I should have with them changes i made all at once without touching pot 4 now?? I thought pot 4 was just used to fool the ecm or something along that nature and if ya set it too low or too high the check engine light wd. come on and that was it ,7.5 to or so seemed to be safe for that, Am I completely wrong in what this pot 4 does do?? LoL Thanks again.. Btw got you note there on 4500 RPMs hmmm how long is your Awhile LoL thats moving at 4500 or so ...wd. not the 3500 rpms in 4 th or 5th be okay say for 10 mins or so? |
Typeone
| Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 11:56 pm: |
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I've been using the method Kevin mentioned above after reading a post by ProFueler in the Techlusion forum pages.. . "Make sure you have the bike warmed up, make your adjustments, cruise at no lower than 35 mph for at least 3-4 minutes then shut the bike down so it can store the new info for the next time it is started up. then you can run it to see how the adjustments are working. this info i'm gathering from the Buell service manual and how it stores information from the last time it ran to configure a map for the next start up." They don't mention RPM (need to go dig in my SM) but I usually let her cruise on the highway at a constant 3500RPM. I've done it at a constant 3200 too. not sure which is 'correct' though. Then turning off then on again then riding some more, do this a few times then jam on some regular roads at varying speeds. One of my last test sessions I rode for more than 3-4 min, more like 10 - 15min and the bike was running really nice. I could actually feel the bike getting smoother upon restart. first time that happened, using all methods i could find. |
Hogs
| Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 07:14 am: |
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Thanks Typeone, I will check that out as well, I`ll give it a couple of days and see what happeneds, after I get a couple of hundred miles on it...and as you say... |
Xb12rene
| Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 06:57 pm: |
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Here is the original text from PROFUELER at Techlusion: "Understanding and adjusting the pots on closed loop units Green Fuel Pot: (functions like a fuel mixture screw on a carburetor) Adjusts for the motorcycle’s fuel requirements for cold start, deacceleration and everything outside of closed loop cruise. Yellow Fuel Pot: (functions like an accelerator pump) This fuel adjustment adds fuel into the fuel map whenever the throttle is opened rapidly. This pot needs to be adjusted from test riding, by performing brisk roll-ons in a specific gear, and by always starting at the exact same rpm. Try one clock position increases between roll-on tests until you can’t feel any more improvement, and then go back to the last setting that improvement was noticed. Some models won’t require as much fuel as others, so while increasing the yellow by one clock position increments if the motorcycle starts to decrease in throttle response, then turn the yellow back one and a half clock positions Red Fuel Pot: (functions like a main jet on a carburetor) This fuel adjustment adds fuel under large load conditions and is generally required when either air intake or quality exhaust system changes occur. This addition happens automatically using our unique load sensing technology, and similar to the road test procedure listed above in yellow fuel, test riding while increasing red fuel will find an optimum setting. Cruise Pot: This feature allows the tuner to target a percentage of fuel during normal closed loop operation. The closed loop systems on motorcycles targets a signal from the o2 sensor. The cruise pot adjustment coupled with our unique programming gives the tuner the ability to add fuel during cruise without the closed loop system targeting a signal and trying to pull fuel back out. Countless hours of testing resulted in the suggested setting that comes in the instructions, in some cases where the volumetric efficiency has been increased by various engine modifications the need to target a slightly different percentage of fuel may be needed, this is where the range of cruise adjustment may be needed." Rene |
M1combat
| Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 07:34 pm: |
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It needs to be at that RPM or more because you need to be ABOVE the closed loop, but at steady throttle. We're looking for surging here... not letting the AFV settle. Pot four offsets the AFV from what the O2 sensor is telling the AFV to do... It adjusts THE ENTIRE CURVE up or down. You then use one-three to adjust the shape of the curve. You need to set four first because four interacts with the AFV. One-three do not. They only kick in (theoretically) when the ECM is in open loop mode. If you adjust the fourth pot, ride at 3500 for a while to allow the AFV to settle. Then ride above 4500 for a while (preferably in fifth, find an interstate. No, I'm not paying for your tickets...). Once the bike warms up fully and is running at about 4500 or so with a steady throttle it will surge just a little if pot four is too low. If it surges, increase about 15 minutes and try again. Allow the AFV to settle, then run 4500 and try to feel for any surging. Once the surging is gone... Take the bike to a dyno and tune one-three . You can try by your SOTP dyno, but it's not going to turn out nearly as well. When you initially install the TFI... I believe it's best to ride without it to allow the AFV to settle to Buell's chosen A/F ratio with that configuration at 3500. Install the TFI. Set TFI to Off, Off, Off, 7:30. Ride at 3500 to allow the TFI to settle. Ride at 4500 to check for surging. If surging occurs, turn up pot four 15-30 minutes. ride at 3500 to let the AFV settle. Ride at 4500 to check for surging. Repeat these last few steps until the surging is gone. Once this is all done... NEVER touch number four again unless you change parts. Go to a dyno and tune one through three. Your setting for pot four will not work with someone elses bike. They will need to tune number four until surging is gone on their bike, then they MAY be able to use your 1-3 settings, but at THEIR pot four setting. They need to tune their pot four with one through three off as well... SIDENOTE WARNING... I had a Force pipe that I tried to tune with a TFI . I found that I could crank pot four up and it would cause my AFV to go lower. This removed fuel . Once I got the fuel removed like this, I then adjusted number four back to a more normal setting and the AFV didn't rise back up. Unfortunately, I was unable to remove ENOUGH fuel at 2500 (I needed to remove about 25%) so the TFI was useless to me. The PCIII I run now works quite well though, and I can swap pipes at will w/o having to go retune #4 with 1-3 off then set 1-3 EVERY time I swap pipes. One more thing... The Force pipe's VE changes DRASTICALLY between 2700 and 3200 RPM. I found that I could change the characteristics of my bike by letting the AFV settle at 2700RPM or at 3300RPM. If I let the AFV settle at 2700 (which is still in closed loop) the bike would run lean at 3200 because the AFV was at "X" position. If I let the AFV settle at 3200, it would run VERY rich at 2500-2700. I found that with the Force pipe, I should let the AFV settle at 2700. This way I could get the ECM to remove as much fuel as possible (again, it wasn't capable of removing enough anyway, but it helped a little) and then use pots 1-3 to add the fuel back in over 3000... Some of you may have already found the problem with that . If I let the bike run at 3500 and settled the AFV there... It would be VERY rich at 2500-2700 and rich at 3500 because my TFI settings were telling it to be now that the AFV had raised to where it would be for 3500 RPM. I imagine that most pipes won't be so problematic as the Force was. The Force changes the volumetric efficiency VERY dramatically. Any pipe that offers a broad power curve like the stock setup should be OK... IMO, you'll still need to tune it like I said above though, you just won't have the issue about which RPM you allow the AFV to settle at. I do, however, recommend that you always let the AFV settle at the same RPM each time you do it... |
Typeone
| Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 07:48 pm: |
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M1, that is some great food for thought. Thnx for posting those details. I'm trying to dial SOTP before I drop cashish on a dyno session or two. Not cheap 'round here. This added detail should help in my continued tweaking. (I really miss my PCIII from my last bike though, waaaay easier to get set up with standard mods) |
Jedwele
| Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 09:43 pm: |
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Seems like from most the post if you have Force pipe the TFI doesn't work to well. I have a D&D I was thinking of getting a TFI, whats the general thinking on TFI, is it worth getting? |
Rsohler
| Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 10:54 pm: |
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Hi, More I read about the TFI setings more I get confused. And I have not too much luck setting my TFI correctly Does any of you guys have the same config as mine and can share his settings -XB12S 2004 -Stock ECM -Race Pipe -K/N filter -"Desnorkelled" -TFI Thank in advance for your great Help R' |
Typeone
| Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 11:17 pm: |
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Rsohler, someone here coined the classic phrase, 'ahhh, TFI, its all crazy talk anyway'.(forget who) and its oh so fitting. hahaa. Unfortunately settings seem to vary bike to bike, its not like the convenience of a PCIII and map sharing. Check out http://www.techlusion.com in the Buell forum section, there aren't that many posts really, you will see a thread with your exact question and setup. ProFueller recommends a starting point. Hope that helps a little |
Martin
| Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 11:45 pm: |
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M1 Could you let me know your process for setting-up the PC111 as I never seem to be able to add enough fuel, even with bigger injectors. I get the distinct impression that my ecu is unlearning or fighting the PC. I am using powerlink software on the dyno. |
M1combat
| Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 12:31 am: |
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Martin... Check page ?13 or 17? of the manual online at power commander dot com. It mentions a thing called "the box". This is an area that you need to leave clear. It's basically the area in which the ECM will be in closed loop and learning. I think it's something like "up to 40% throttle" and "less than 3500 RPM". It would make a blank box in your maps in the upper left. Load any of the Buell maps from power commander's web site into the PC software and you'll see what I mean. Some maps have numbers in the lower right portion of "the box" and on my maps I clear them. I have a map for race ecm/force/de-snorkel/chopped airbox and the same but the Drummer... Both use the FORCE header though, so I don't think they'll be any good for you... |
Surlypacer
| Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 01:59 am: |
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Question. Would 4500rpm in fourth gear be the same as 5th? For tuning the forth pot in a legal speed range. |
Martin
| Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 01:03 pm: |
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M1, Te box within a box is the bit that you are supposed to be able to adjust if you have the uprated O2 sensor. By procedure, I meant: do you run the motor for a 30sec period after making changes or uploading your map before shutting the motor, or run it at the 3500 or above for 30secs? |
Hogs
| Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 05:53 pm: |
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HEy Micombat, Well If ya read back up , will get ya where and what I did... Anyways Now as you say around 4500 rpms I do get a surge like its starving for a few secs. and then its wide open to red line no plms.. So If I read you right I now have to adjust pot 4 up farther ,Hmmm perhaps to 8 ??? Hmmmmmm Watch the surge is gone then all should be ok or, Still might have to play with 1,2,and 3 ?? |
M1combat
| Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 06:30 pm: |
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"M1, Te box within a box is the bit that you are supposed to be able to adjust if you have the uprated O2 sensor." Yeah... but I don't trust them AND they're talking about an X1. I think the XB ECM is a bit smarter than the X1. "By procedure, I meant: do you run the motor for a 30sec period after making changes or uploading your map before shutting the motor, or run it at the 3500 or above for 30secs?" None of that stuff. If you leave "the box" alone, then the PC shouldn't ever be doing anything at all in the closed loop mode so it doesn't matter. I don't know where you got thirty seconds from. Keep in mind that the diatribes up there were mostly about the TFI. I believe that the best practice for the PCIII is to just install it by itself and tune it. You wouldn't want to install a pipe, intake mods AND the PC at the same time and THEN tune it, because you would still want your AFV to settle before you start messing with stuff. The reason for this is because if you don't... The AFV will settle AFTER you tune it and it'll pull your map off the right mark. This is why I think that for things like big bore kits, one will need to figure out the change in VE as a percentage and then use injectors that are capable of a duty cycle the same percentage greater than the stock injectors. In a perfect world... These larger injectors would allow the AFV to settle at 100 at sea level at 3200-3500 RPM with NO tuning. This would allow you to retain your full range of AFV correction. " Anyways Now as you say around 4500 rpms I do get a surge like its starving for a few secs. and then its wide open to red line no plms.. " I said "AT" 4500. Not "through 4500 on your way up to 6800 in fifth". AT 4500. Please read the posts again... 1. Turn 1-3 off. Put four at about 7:30-7:45. 2. Ride at 3500 for a while (A minute or two) to settle the AFV. 3. Ride "AT" 4500 for a little while and check for surging. 4. If it surges... Turn number four up a little. 5. Repeat steps 2, 3 and 4 until it stops surging. 6. Take your bike to a dyno and tell them to tune pots 1-3. Tell them to NOT touch number four. |
Martin
| Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 01:36 am: |
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'I don't know where you got thirty seconds from' It was something in the PC111 instructions about not switching the motor off for 30secs after making any changes. I take on board what you say about your process. Thanks very much. |
M1combat
| Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 01:54 am: |
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Ahh... I see said the blind man . I had forgotten about the 30 seconds. I don't think it matters if the engine is running as such. I generally make sure I just leave the key on for a little while. Before I shut it off I load the current map from the PC just to make sure the right one is in there. |
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