| Author | Message | ||
     Busykat |
I happened upon this video about removing plugs. I know removing plugs from aluminum heads can be tricky and some have had threads strip out. This video offers a technique that I hadn't heard of before, but makes good sense. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oUsFFkH1io&feature =player_embedded#! | ||
| Tootal |
I've cracked them and then sprayed with Break Free and let them sit. They come right out. +1 on the anti-sieze and all us Buell owners know about the fuel hose trick! Another thing he didn't mention is after the coil is removed, if you have compressed air, blow out the hole on that hemi head before you crack them loose. It should be sealed but why risk something falling into the cylinder. | ||
| Dr_greg |
So THAT'S what caused my rear plug to self-eject a few years back...some dude sprayed that stuff on it!  --Doc | ||
| Pontlee77 |
I use copper slip anti seize, never had a problem. | ||
| Rwcfrank |
Just be sure to go light on the anti seize, the plug must still transfer heat to the aluminum head and too much anti seize inhibits heat transfer. | ||
| Uly_man |
Removing Spark Plugs from Aluminum Cylinder Heads. You just gotta be joking. Do HDs still make heads with Iron? The last thing I came across with a iron head was made in about 1975. That was a car and I have NEVER had a bike with one. Even then the same method was used to remove them if needed IE without undue force. It is little wonder why people have so many problems if they are unable to understand even the most basic of jobs on a bike and a plug change is the most simple of maintenance. Oh and if your plug threads are long enough to project into the cylinder head then they may be the wrong type and smash out your pistons. Anti seize will not help and never ever should or need to be used. Because BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH you would not understand anyway. | ||
| Towpro |
Right from the "mouth" of the experts, NGK! Tech Bulletin - Anti-Seize Compounds on Spark Plug Threads Topic The use of anti-seize compounds on spark plug threads that have a metal shell plating (i.e. Zinc or Nickel plating). Issue Applying anti-seize to the threads of spark plugs that have a metal plating allows the installer to mistakenly over-tighten the spark plug in the cylinder head; This stretches and fatigues the threads of the spark plugs, causing a much higher probability that the plug will break during installation or in some cases upon removal. Example of 10mm thread spark plug broken during installation due to the use of anti-seize leading to over-tightening. (Note that plug gasket has been completely compressed, anti-seize can be seen on threads, and the break is in the direction of tightening). Solution For spark plugs with special metal plating simply do not use anti-seize on initial Installation; All NGK Spark Plugs are manufactured with a special trivalent Zinc-chromate shell plating that is designed to prevent both corrosion and seizure to the cylinder head; Thus eliminating the need for any thread compounds or lubricants. Additional Information NGK recommends only using spark plugs with metal plating on all aluminum head applications to prevent damage to the head and plug. Metal shell plating acts as a “lubricant” which breaks away from the main body of the spark plug during removal, preventing damage to the spark plug and or threads in the cylinder head. NGK Spark Plugs (U.S.A.), Inc. – Aftermarket Division 46929 Magellan Drive - Wixom, Michigan 48393 Summary All spark plugs that have a blackened or dull appearance on the metal body offer no protection against seizing or bonding to the cylinder head and so it is with these spark plugs that anti-seize would be required. A spark plug that has a shiny silver appearance on the metal body usually indicates that the plug is manufactured with metal shell plating and therefore will not require anti-seize. Example of spark plugs that do not have metal shell plating View link for Ugly pictures  http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/pdf/tb-0630111antisie ze.pdf I never knew this. I knew NGK plugs seemed to be best in aluminum heads, but ...... | ||
| Towpro |
I found this on a VW site. this is the same thing my boss told me back in the mid 70's when I was the apprentice. Back then it was the VW aircooled that was having the problems. Bosch uses rolled threads. Rolled Thread is the process in which the threads are cast as part of the original steel shell vs. a cut thread which is machined after the shell is cast. Which process is better depends on application. For spark plugs, rolled threads are better as the threads are cast and hardened along with the steel shell, also the grain structure obtained in the hardening process is not interrupted, having a higher structural integrity. The nickel plated rolled Bosch threads are often smoother than other spark plugs and believed to have a lower likelihood of seizing. NGK plugs have cold rolled threads to prevent damage to aluminum heads. Diehard VWers generally use Bosch or NGK plugs over cut thread plugs to decrease the occurrence of the plugs damaging the VW heads. If you strip a plug hole, you can use a TIME-SERT self locking insert to repair it. Helicoils can unfortunately unwind themselves. | ||
| Rwcfrank |
Thats good info, I will go from using a spec of anti sieze to none at all.. | ||
| Towpro |
Personally I will continue to use it. they are saying anti seize allows users to over torque the spark plug. I just never over tighten one. I don't install them with a torque wrench, I just tighten them with ratchet by hand until it feels right. It has worked for me for 10000's of installs during the last 40 years. Why change now. I have pulled plugs where the the head threads have transferred and stuck to the steel plug threads. Anti seize will prevent this, even if the plug has special coating. Just don't tighten over tighten it. (Message edited by towpro on January 23, 2012) | ||
| Motorbike |
I have turned wrenches (not full time) all my life and it still bothers me when installing a brand new spark plug. The part that bothers me is the feel you get while the plug gasket is being compressed for the first time. It seems kind of soft and feels like the threads are starting to strip out. After the initial crush of the metal gasket, then it tightens up and all is well. Of course if you are re-installing used plugs, this is a non-issue. When I put the new plugs in my XT, I did use a very small amount of anti-sieze, mostly because that's how I have always done it. Never stripped or broken a plug on anything yet. Thanks for all the good info. I may quit using anti-seize for this application (at least on NGK plated plugs). | ||
| Towpro |
Al, the important part is you "know the feel". If you can feel the washer crush, your never going to over tighten one  | ||
| Motorbike |
Towpro, do you stop tightening the plug when you feel the washer being crushed, before it is completely compressed? I do know that if you actually torque the plugs to spec., the gasket will be completely crushed before the wrench clicks. You are absolutely correct about "knowing the feel" on these things. Kinda like knowing when to stop when tightening the swingarm drain plug. Thanks. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
I just recently changed a rear plug on my son's 07'ULY. Have no idea if that plug was the original put in at the factory or not but it came out easily. I put some Permatex never seize on the threads of the new NGK plug and it went in nicely and I just tightened by feel which I'm pretty good at in my estimation. When I changed out the NGK on my 06'ULY rear plug back a few years ago I did not put never seize on the threads and worried about that. Glad to read that my worry is unfounded. Thanks for the info Towpro. I've got over 30K on that rear plug now and no problems and I believe the front plug is original with over 35K miles on it. Engine runs great so I'll run them as long as it continues to run like a top. | ||
| Buellerxt |
What caused you to change the rear plugs, EG? Just curious. Because of the difficulty in getting to the rear plug I'm hoping to avoid fowling a plug and not change either for many moons! Thanks. | ||
| Tootal |
Towpro, I wanted to clarify the information you presented. Rolled threads are not cast. They are rolled as the name implies. Cut threads are machined into the outside diameter as mentioned but rolled threads start off with a diameter smaller than needed. It is then rolled between dies that form the thread and the part of the material in the root of the thread pushes up to form the proper outside diameter. They use this method now for internal threads using form taps. This is very useful on internal threads in aluminum. It is a stronger thread since the metal is compressed instead of just cut away. Thanks for the info, I've worked on many air cooled VW's! | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Buellerxt, My son came back from his part time job and said his bike wouldn't accelerate so I started it and told him his rear plug was fouled. Clearly running on only one cylinder. Also the rear pipe was not near as hot which is a very telling indicator that the plug is fouled. The next day we went out to the HD/Buell dealer and got the plug. I'd changed mine a few years ago so I wasn't looking forward to the aggravation but it turned out to be relatively easy compared to my memory of doing it before. I started by removing the seat and the airbox cover and getting all those associated cables pulled out of the way to make as much room to maneuver as possible. I then remembered that another badwebber had made a plug boot removal and installation device from metal rod. I can't remember who to thank but it stuck in my memory since it was a very ingenious device and easy to make. I used a strong piece of metal rod ( 1/8" diameter approx )from a political sign and curled the end with a vice grip and bench vice. That enabled me to reach down under the rubber boot and easily pull it out from the bottom. You don't want to try pulling the plug wire to get that boot off. Then with the engine dead cold I used a universal socket joint and a deep well socket and the plug came right out. Used a flash light to check for debris around the plug hole and it looked good. Set the plug gap to spec and then using the universal socket joint and deepwell socket ( with the plug held in place with a piece of tape ) I hand screwed the new plug back into the plug hole. Yes I did put never-seize on the plug threads. Probably didn't need to since it was a NGK plug with the plated thread. Know that now thanks to Towpro. I then put on the socket wrench and hand tightened until I felt the washer crush and stopped. Pushed back on the boot with the help of the curled rod thingy and called it done. Make sure the boot is fully seated. Runs good.  (Message edited by electraglider_1997 on January 25, 2012) | ||
| Buellerxt |
Good job, EG, and thanks for taking the time to give the details. Much appreciated. I hope I don't have to use your advice for a long time but I'll save it. Any idea why his plug fouled? What causes plugs to foul besides the throttle flipping? Anyone? Thanks. (Message edited by buellerxt on January 25, 2012) | ||
| Uly_man |
EG1997 has got it "spot on" and exactly how I do it on the Uly but without the anti-seize. It is a little tricky with the rear the first time around. Just find a warm dry place, give yourself plenty of time to do it and do not get pissed at it if it gives you a hard time. You can take the base of the airbox off as well for more access and light if needed. The next time you do it you will wonder what all the fuss was about and do it in ten mins. For what its worth here are a few tips on "spannering" for those who may need it. Make sure you have decent/correct tools and the right parts at hand. Also make sure you can get the right ones if the ones you have are wrong and trust me it can happen even for the Pros. If your new to this sort of thing find something you can practice on like an old engine or take a couple night school classes. We all need to learn and you will be amazed at what you can do with a little help. If you do get frustrated with a job just walk away for a while and settle yourself before trying again. But be warned. It will not be long before you start talking "bearings and gaskets", in the tool shop wondering if you should buy that shiny/expensive/use-only-once "do-hicky" tool or that your Wife starts to refer to your bike as "The other women". But if she does just explain to her how much money you are saving by doing the work yourself. It works great. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Buellerxt, Mine fouled probably because of throttle blipping which I quit and 30K miles later no more fouling issues at all. We bought my son's 07 ULY with about 7 or 8K miles on it and it know has 16,660 miles. Maybe it has something to do with breaking the engine in and it always seems to be the rear plug. I'm sure that his bike had new plugs put in at the dealer since it was a trade-in and had just been serviced, at least that was what we were told. Does anybody ever see the front plug foul? I wonder if anybody with a 2010 and it's upgraded extra O2 sensor has ever fouled a rear plug. I don't change out both plugs, just the fouled one. Why mess with a perfectly good front plug. Like changing out a worn back tire. That doesn't call for changing out the front when it has thousands of miles left on it. | ||
| Buellerxt |
That's reassuring, and helpful, to read, EG. Thanks. Uly_man,  Good advice and fun to read! | ||
| Uly_man |
"I wonder if anybody with a 2010 and it's upgraded extra O2 sensor has ever fouled a rear plug." I do and never have had a problem but then again I did not with my 06 bike either. I do not understand "fouled plug" are you not just able to clean it and re-fit it? "Like changing out a worn back tire. That doesn't call for changing out the front when it has thousands of miles left on it." No but it is normally done, at least here, because the front is close to dead and can be partly squared off which affects the handling. A lot more bends here wear them close enough to make a pair/set change close enough that it is economical enough to do it as you get a better price doing it that way. I would not do it otherwise. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Ulyman, There was a discussion about cleaning fouled plugs and I used to do it on jap bikes, and still do it on lawn mowers. On the ULY I just buy a new one and change it out. Only the one time per ULY though so far. As for tires, I can't afford to change a front every rear tire change. Especially when my fronts last twice the rear's mileage. I'm pretty frugal about most things and the cheaper I can go from A to B the better I sleep and the more I have on hand when something really needs fixing. Nothing wrong with changing out both tires or plugs at the same time if that is how you like to do it.  | ||
| Uly_man |
EG1997. I am very frugal myself and see no reason to spend money unless needed. If you get two rears to a front then thats great. Sounds like a perfect deal. Ok I know the bike has its problems but given what it can do its the cheapest bike to run I have ever had. I looked into all of this, as I do before I bought the bike. I lost a belt at 7.5k and 14k but only paid for the last one which I do not think is all that bad because IMO its mostly due to our bad roads. One reason I love this bike so much (ON MY SECOND NOW) is that it is close to the perfect all round bike. It will tour with the best of them, handle with most sports bikes, an amazing commuter bike and even off-road a bit if needed. The other is that it is the only bike I have ever had that makes me smile every time I get on it. At the end of the day that is, whatever the cost what I want from a bike but a little rare these days. |
