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Rocketman
| | Posted on Monday, July 14, 2003 - 08:46 am: | 
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If this topic is about cheats and liars in AMAPR, I believe I'm right in assuming it is supposedly said so because someone believes the rules are influenced by the Japanese manufacturers. Well I believe that someone believes that because Jose's point "until you show up with an orange to race the other oranges, not a tweaked apple like you are trying to do now" is bang on the money and that's what's really pissed so many of you off. At least imo Jose is right and for what it's worth it's nice to see that as a Buell fan of sorts he refuses to suck up to Buell like so many of you do, even when they're blatantly out on a limb and wrong to be so.
I liked this comment in particular by Anony ........
And, the fact is that Jose has made a career out of bashing Buell's racing efforts, and I enjoy bashing back
Hmm I think that should read 'bashing Buell's lack of racing efforts' and I think that in a nut shell is Jose's point.
In my view the Japs threw a tantrum by boycotting WSB this year and got called on it.
Blake that's misleading to this thread and is simply not the reason Honda left WSB at all, unless of course you know more than what the motorcycling press reported on the matter, like say that highly respected publication MCN did.
This quote from you Blake shows how your comments mislead this thread with its alleged comparison......
The bullies of Japan Inc. deserve a serving of humility, just like Ferrari dishes out to their much bigger and richer competition in F1.
Ferrari by far have the largest budget in F1 and they are not a small company hand building sportcars like some might assume they are. Many people who don't follow F1, like say many Americans don't, might arrive at the same conclusion you have. It's wrong what you say and it's misleading and does not offer a comparison for Buell at all to take on the Japanese manufacturers at all, unless of course HD \ Buell want to match Ferrari's financial clout and enter into motorcycle racing at top level.
Rocket 
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José_quiñones
| | Posted on Monday, July 14, 2003 - 10:47 am: |
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quote:The AMAPR racing rules by JQ... All machines shall be configured per the Japanese or not be acceptable to race.
Not at all, what I simply want is the following "breaks" currently allowed to twins in Superstock not be included in the Supersport rules if 750 Ducatis and aircooled Buells of whatever displacement they sell in stock form are allowed in Supersport:
3. Homologation.
(a) Supersport and Superstock motorcycles require homologation. See
Supersport and Superstock Approval.
(b) Superstock twin cylinder motorcycles are exempt from the approval
process.
...
5. Superstock Twin cylinder
Twin- cylinder 4-strokes are allowed the following modifications:
(a) Motorcycles must meet the following requirements in addition to the
requirements in General Equipment Standards. All other modifications
are unrestricted. Superstock twin-cylinder motorcycles are exempt
from the approval and claiming process.
If you do that, then all the technical rules would be equal.
The AMA and FUSA rules are needlessly complicated anyway. I, as an "amateur", could come up with a set of rules for 3 or 4 classes that would not be based on displacements or engine types and provide for close racing. |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Monday, July 14, 2003 - 12:01 pm: |
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Hear hear, Rocket!
Blake, do you even read what you link to?
The Japanese are upset that after having spent lots of time and money agreeing to a restrictor size they could live with and then developing engines for restrictor plate racing, the FIM is suddenly dropping the whole approach and they have wasted a bunch of money.
Ultimately the new rules will be to their advantage, but they are justifiably upset at the moment.
quote:I say "Way to go FIM and FGSport!""
But if their rules are so "enlightened" and meet your approval, why are they going to end up with rules very similar to the evil 2004 AMA rules which you believe are unfair?
quote:“To give you some idea about, the technical regulations will be very similar to the AMA and the UK. So it will be something in the middle.”
Ducati's problem is with the spec tire rule, they were aware about the elimination of the restrictors and seemed ok with it.
quote:“We talked a lot about the regulation but not about the tires,” said Domenicali. “With the spec tire, it is too early to say. It is a brand-new concept, so we have to get used to it. We have to see how different people feel."
Maybe a way to keep the tire manufaturers happy is to split the 12 races between them, so each tire company would be the "official tire" for 4 of the 12 events. It would save them money too in the sense that they would only have to do tire R&D for 4 tracks instead of 12 each year. |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, July 14, 2003 - 03:45 pm: |
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JQ,
For 2004 AMAPR proposes to eliminate any differentiation in technical rules governing performance mods of twins and fours. Again, that is what prompted this entire thread. I believe that Ducati is commenting wrt this years AMAPR rules which do indeed, like their BSB and WSB conterparts seek to limit some of the modifications available to four cylinder superbikes. Like I said, I don't care how it is done, but the rules must be structured to promote parity between the different engine configurations. WSB is seeking to do just that. AMAPR was not. Now it appears that they may. Good for them.
I agree 100% with your assessment of what the SS rules should be. We agree!
What I was chastising you about is your apples to oranges statement, which to me implied that Buell should build a racebike configured similarly to the Japanese bikes if they want to compete in ANY AMAPR road racing classes.
Now with the 103 bhp XB12R, maybe an XB12RR isn't too far away? Even though it might not be a front runner, it would sure be cool to see Sean Higbee or Mike Cicotto on the grid for an AMAPR SS race. I imagine the XB would be killer at Laguna Seca, a real handling track.
Sure was good to see Franki Chilli win the WSB race. Mladin proved that his WSB speck GSXR could run up front too, which answered an important question. His AMA SB GSXR is just a tad faster and probably a good match for the Ducatis as is. So it seems that the current rules for AMAPR SB might be a good place to start.
I'm glad if AMAPR agrees with that.
Spec tires? I'm undecided about that. Definitely would suck for all the tire manufacturers interested in supporting the premiere racing classes. I suppose they would have to bid on the contract with the various racing organizations.
Rocket,
So Ferrari is comparable in size to Honda, Daimler-Chrysler, BMW, and Ford?  It's all relative. You know those big "Marlboro" signs adorning everything in Ferrari F1? Might have something to do with their budget no?  |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Monday, July 14, 2003 - 09:36 pm: |
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Blake dearest, ever heard of a small Italian company from Turin goes by the name F.I.A.T?
Rocket |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 12:33 am: |
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Yes, it's a drop of piss in the bucket compared to Honda or Ford or Daimler-Chrysler. What's your point? |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 05:11 am: |
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You might call it a drop of piss, they'd call themselves one of the largest companies in the world. How much in worth they are compared to Honda, Ford or Daimler-Chrysler I couldn't say but it is a well known fact that Ferrari have the biggest budget in F1 and their parent company is F.I.A.T.
My point being that you suggested that Ferrari were a small motor company kicking the large Japanese motor companies in F1. Ferrari aren't small.
Rocket |
Benm2
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 08:46 am: |
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Boo hoo, Matt was too tired to compete in the second WSB race. He'd been racing all weekend, and he was sooo tired. Sniff. Sob.
Don't think that getting dropped off in the first race had anything to do with it, do ya? How many other riders do superbike, supersport, and superstock? World class my a**. I just feel bad for Eric. Duhamel rides multiple classes with busted parts.
Hard man? Kevin Livingston. Riding in the top of the GC in the Tour de France with a clavicle broken in two places.
Sorry, off topic. Uh, AMAPR sucks! Do you think Pirelli was talking to WSB before the spec tire rule? Hmm.... |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 12:02 am: |
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Ferrari is small. Very freaking small compared to Honda, Ford, and Daimler-Chrysler.
Buell is small. Like Ferrari, they are owned by a larger corporate concern, yet operate as wholly owned subsidiaries. Subsidiaries generally operate as separate entities and are required to make the money they want to spend on stuff like racing. Ferrari lives or dies on its racing heritage, much like Ducati. You don't see them advertising in magazines or on the teli; they invest in racing. Ferrari is small. You on the other hand... look terrible in a skirt. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 12:12 am: |
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I think Mladin did a great job,especially as a wildcard on the WSB version of the GSXR for the first time. He led the race for some time. Seems to me his tires went out some. Did the guys who beat him run Dunlop or Michelins? I too was disappointed that he didn't run the second race, but I can't believe you would diss the guy. WTF? He does have his regular job and series championship to think about.
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Rocketman
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 05:00 am: |
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Buell is small. Like Ferrari, they are owned by a larger corporate concern, yet operate as wholly owned subsidiaries as his HRC, Honda Racing Corporation, they too are a subsidiary of Honda and operate as a separate entity. In any case if we took Ferrari away from F.I.A.T they're still a big company despite the fact they limit themselves to producing 4000 cars a year. They do have fingers in other pies too, motor sport being one of them, and that's a pretty fat finger!
Rocket |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 10:46 am: |
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Rocket, i am suprised, you never even mentioned Mugen, why dont you tell every one about the size of that company, and what they have done(you sound better versed in F1 than i could ever be, so i am sure you know about them)
later
Roger |
Benm2
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 11:26 am: |
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Blake:
Mladin's a crybaby. When he's not winning, its the bikes fault. He bitched up a blue streak last year about the 750 fours while Eric fought till the end on a bike years older than his. Now, he can win again and is happy. But, again, at the first sign of difficulty he drops off. That's why he's not world class, and does not have a GP ride. He's using AMAPR as his retirement home.
Yes, I thought of the Dunlop issue (tires going off) but at least they stayed together this time.
I think Ben Bostrum won both Laguna races as a wild card before he went to WSB. He (also) had a championship to think about, and he raced other classes that weekend too.
Also, check out some of the comments regarding Mat's actions on track during practice, they're up on RRW. IMHO, he's a playground bully. |
Benm2
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 11:29 am: |
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http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/scripts/NewsInsert.asp?insert=6713
Here's the link, at the bottom. |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 02:34 pm: |
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The important point about Ducati and Ferrari is that they are willing to spend whatever it takes to WIN, regardless of the companies size compared to others.
Honda is the same, so is Toyota in CART/IRL and now in the Truck Series.
HD/Buell are simply not willing to spend what it takes to race seriously at the AMA level at this moment. It did not use to be this way, it might change in the future, but right now the commitment is not there. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 08:32 pm: |
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Rocket,
Honda - Honda Racing... Not quite the same as Fiat - Ferrari Racing is it? What if MCN said that Ferrari is a small company? 
Ben,
Thanks for the link. I know Mladin's rep. He's a lot like me. I think his gripes about the 750cc limit was valid. I just don't think anyone who wins and works as hard as Mladin is a crybaby. He's just passionate and very driven. Yeah, he may have a bit of an inferiority complex.
JQ,
Please explain to us all how Buell should be willing to spend a BUNCH of money that they don't have. |
Sportsman
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 09:52 pm: |
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I don't know what anybody else thinks, but thank God they put out new bike that will run with the SV's that doesn't need a ton of aftermarket stuff ($$$)to do it. With spending, it should go with the 600's and that's saying alot. Just 1 more step to RR
Jose'good to see ya, I dropped a valve in the last race Sunday, but am finally getting back to my old lap times. It's been a struggle.
Now back to the original topic. |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 03:34 pm: |
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Doug,
Yeah we were by the carousel(?) and heard your bike miss going into the turn then saw the smoke.... Bummer, hope it's not to expensive to fix.
Blake,
I don't get it, you keep asking why the AMA won't "let them race" in Supersport, but now you claim that they don't have the money to mount a serious race effort?
BS, HD has the money, they have shown the willingness to spend it in road racing in the past, they just don't want to do it now. Their racing budget is now tied up in Dirt Track and Drag Racing.
What they are missing is the Commitment. That is the biggest thing that they need, not money. Commitment is what Ducati, Aprilia, and the rest have. Once the commitment to race at the AMA Supersport level is there, the money will flow.
But it will take money to do the following:
1. A bike with a competive engine, built to race spec in enough quantities to homologate it with the FIM and the AMA.
2. Convince the AMA and the FIM to allow them in Supersport.
3. A full Factory team, and contingencies for AMA privateers that choose to race Buells.
4. The commitment from the higher ups to stay away from it and let the race team do what it needs. No Politics, no union issues, etc.
If they just want to concentrate on building street bikes and supporting "true privateers" at the FUSA/CCS/AMA FX level, what they are spending now is fine. They do need to make the programmable ecms, chain conversions and fairings more affordable for the privateers, better yet, sell them a "race only" bike with these items as standard equipment.
If they just want to concentrate on building street bikes, they should not be spending ANY money on racing.
So if it's like you say they don't have the money, they should not race.
They do have the money, what they don't have is the commitment. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 09:19 pm: |
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JQ,
HD has plenty of money. Why would HD give Buell money to go race? Can HDI force them to do so? Maybe, but from a good business standpoint, Buell needs to pay their own way, and I think momma H-DI and big brother H-D feel the same way. If Buell comes out with an XB12RR, they may might actually have something capable of competing fairly well in AMAPR Supersport, at least if the rules were equitable and they could sign a top rider.
I agree with much of what you say other than the money thing. I don't think Buell wants to go racing in AMA Supersport with an XB12R. They'll build some RR versions when they do, but not until AMAPR allows 1200cc Buells into SS, or 1350cc versions into FX. |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 08:49 am: |
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HD has plenty of money. Why would HD give Buell money to go race?
I would think that HD would want to go racing, to improve the Buell Brand REP(maybe an endurance effort, that would say a lot, IMHO), maybe to increase exposure, i would be interested to see what racing has done for Ducati in the past decade, i mean go back to D. Pollen, see where they were, and where they are(i read recently that the plant in italy was at capacity), that would make a good example. they also had an influx of cash from an outside company, that only had a money interest, and look at them now, just a thought
Buell needs to pay their own way
Why, this is an interesting point, i have seen an example of"you need to spend money to make money", and it works, why does HD NEED to let Buell earn its own way, if this is the case, why did HD buy them in the first place
They'll build some RR versions when they do, but not until AMAPR allows 1200cc Buells into SS, or 1350cc versions into FX.
Chicken and the egg argument, who will go first, does Buell build the RR to race, then ask the AMA to allow them in, or does the AMA allow Buell in, before they have a bike or team to go racing, seems no one ever wins in those situations
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Benm2
| | Posted on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 10:15 am: |
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I think Buell could build "homologation specials" for supersport in VERY short order, if they were allowed in. There is no doubt that the factory knows how to build a VERY fast XB (PT bikes). If they were allowed in at 1200cc, there are many examples of bikes posted on this very board that produce power competitive with Japanese I-4 600's. That combined with the off-the-corner torque could make the bike much more than "competitive". Fitting the XB12 with SE536 cams, some lightweight valve gear, roller rockers, MMC pushrods, and a big-bore throttle body from the factory might be enough (with the other "standard" ss mods) to get nearly there.
Perhaps that's what the J-4 fear, and are applying appropriate pressure. On the other hand, a "gentlemen's agreement" from Buell not to overdog the class (let's face it, 1200cc's is a hell of an advantage) should be equally acceptable.
All the major racing organizations seem to have some "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" going on. Maybe a little of that could be thrown in Buell's direction, along with (on Buell's part) sponsorship cash & contingencies.
If Buell got to the point where they were overdogging the class, the rules would certainly be changed (probably displacement cuts).
While I'm CERTAIN that both HD & Buell have the cash & talent to build an engine that fits the current rules exactly, maybe a little bone thrown their way would move the process along. God knows I've spent enough time arguing with Blake about Buell's ability to produce a competitive engine, and regardless of my opinion of the XB12, the bike is roughly competitive with the current 600's. At long last, why not let them race?
If nothing else, maybe fewer people would say "a what?" when I say I've got a Buell.
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Blake
| | Posted on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 10:16 pm: |
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Roger,
There is no issue of chicken or egg. Buell was sponsoring a great highly competitive support class that AMAPR saw fit to completely screw up and then do away with just as it was gaining prominence and attention. Bored out and hopped up SV700's, Ducati 748's and Buell hot rods all going at it like mad. I guess you forgot about that?
Ben,
Love ya man. But isn't...
15,500-rpm/4-cylinders/16 valves/4-throttle-bodies/liquid-cooled
versus
7,500-rpm/2-cylinders/4 valves/1-throttle-body/air-cooled
even more of an advantage compared to 1200cc's versus 600cc's? I just don't get the complete and utter fixation on displacement. Why not fixate on the number of valves?... Sheesh, 16 to 4; those Japanese IL4's sure do have a HUGE advantage over the poor ole four valve Buell. |
Bad_pete
| | Posted on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 10:26 pm: |
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Don't know if I want to enter this discussion but for what its worth I will add this. I read a interview with Eric Buell. In the beginning, pre-Harley, Buell was designing and building for racing. Lets face it, we gearheads want to see a bike on a track and then want to buy it. Racing sells. However, Buell lost everything, home included, when a rules change came along and disqualified his bike. With no resources to adjust to the rules change he slipped under and lost it all. He said after that he would never build another bike to suit a rules environment. He wanted to build a different bike. I personnally think they should let the Asians keep the inline four racket. Someone with clout should start a for real Boxer Racing Season. Twins only! Just think Buells, BMW's, Ducati's. I know there is a grass roots effort in this area but a serious season with big league support and billing would kick ass! That would be one loud thunderous race. Not whiney like the inline fours.
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Crusty
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 05:52 am: |
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It's been tried before. First there was the BOTT. That was going to be the series for twins. It sounded great, too. Then there was Pro Thunder. It sounded also sounded great. Unfortunately, the majority of race attendees cared less about it than those whiney, obnoxious little 2 strokes in 250 GP. |
Benm2
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 12:40 pm: |
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Just exactly how many caveats need to be added to the rules to allow Buell to compete? The only reason I think they should race is because racing drives technology (that & war), and AMAPR makes "special exceptions" in other circumstances. Do I think the rules are FAIR? Not for a second.
What set of rules would you write for a given racing class BEFORE any bikes are built? If the rules are permanently adjusted as you say:
quote:15,500-rpm/4-cylinders/16 valves/4-throttle-bodies/liquid-cooled
versus
7,500-rpm/2-cylinders/4 valves/1-throttle-body/air-cooled
Then rest assured that the Japanese would build the larger displacement machine. I also expect that the rev limit would be higher, or would that SPECIFICALLY be part of the rules? The RC51 was NOT coincidence. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 01:23 pm: |
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If they want to class races, then they should stop the stupidity and just class them by horsepower. Only one very simple rule, any configuration bike can race, trivial and absolute to validate. A done deal. 0 to 50 RWHP class, 50 to 75 RWHP class, 75 to 100 RWHP, 100 to 125 RWHP, etc.
The next best approach might be classing them by "cost +"... you have a showroom bike, and an audited 40 man hours of prep time, a fixed set of available tools, fixed additional $, only widely commercially available aftermarket parts, and thats what you race. $5k - $7k, $7k to $10k, $10k to $15k, $15k to $20k, $20k to $30k, etc.
Both these class breakdowns would be fantastically relevant to the sportbike consumer. Many of the standout bikes would continue kicking ass (read: gsxr-1000), but it would give other interesting bikes like the XB12 a chance to run where they belong, against high end 600's / 750's. The latter approach in particular would be really cool, as it would drive manufacturers to produce "race parts" and force them to make them widely available.
The AMAPR (and other racing bodies) have just wrapped themselves in a stupid hierarchy of distinctions and aren't willing to think out of the box. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 01:22 am: |
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Ben,
FUSA rules are fine by me. No caveats, just displacement limits based on the capabilities of various different engine configurations... two strokes, singles, pushrods, etc, etc... no caveats, just a fair set of rules so that all configurations in the same power class can be allowed to race. If one configuration starts to dominate, the displacement limits are adjusted accordingly. Pretty friggin simple ain't it? I don't understand the confusion or trouble some have understanding such simple straight-forward and sound logic. Everything else is just bullshit. In my opinion.  |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 08:23 am: |
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Blake,
Didn't you just say:
quote:I just don't get the complete and utter fixation on displacement.
So you then praise FUSA because their classes are based on displacement????????
The same displacement limits that have forced Buell and Suzuki SV650 teams to build monster motors to be competitive in Thunderbike for example?
Allowing non stock displacements is the quickest way to ruin a class because it will drive the cost of racing up so only the "factory backed" or heavily funded teams can build, develop and keep one those motors running for a whole season.
No Caveats? Read the rulebook again, there are quite a few "caveats" in that rulebook, some specific to a particular brand racing air cooled twins.
Reepicheep is really close to what I think would be the ideal when he based the classes by horsepower, I would combine it with your next best approach and require commercially available parts. However, the missing ingredient is the weight of the bikes and the riders, ie the power to weight ratio.
FUSA Thunderbike has a 3.5 pound per HP limit already, not including the weight of the rider.
I would base the classes by the power to weight ratio of the bike, including the rider, regardless of the type of bike, using only commercially available parts.
The rules would start like this:
1. All motorcycles shall be production machines sold by manufacturers and their dealers for legal street use in North America via normal commercial channels. All machines must have unaltered VIN numbers. All machines must maintain stock displacement. Proof of compliance rests with the competitor entering the machine.
2. Any non-stock OEM or aftermarket parts shall be available to the public and sold by manufacturers and their dealers via normal commercial channels. Proof of compliance rests with the competitor entering the machine.
3. Racing classes shall be defined by power to weight ratio. Ratio shall be defined as measured weight, including the rider in the gear they will race with, divided by tested horsepower. All competitors will be measured during tech inspection; the top 5 will be measured once again after qualifying and at the final post race inspection.
Classes are as follows:
Superstock: No less than 5 pounds per horsepower. Amateur only, 50 km distance
Supersport: No less than 4 pounds per horsepower. Amateur and Non Superbike Experts, 50 km distance.
Superbike: No less than 3 pounds per horsepower. Expert only, 2 50 km races
Formula Xtreme: no restrictions, exempt from rules 1 and 2. Expert only, 50 km distance
4. Qualifying: Competitors unable to qualify within 115% of the pole lap time for each class shall be disqualified and not allowed to race.
FUSA is currently the closest to this, it would be cool if the FIM went this way with their new WSBK rules.
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Benm2
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 10:25 am: |
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FUSA rules work because the engine's already done. How many FUSA rules also include year of manufacture? The REAL money classes will ALWAYS be newest model, 'cause that's what they want to sell. If you re-adjust your rules every year based on someone dominating based on the old ones, you piss off manufacturers. (Hmm, familiar trend?)
I'm not sure how well hp-vs-weight would work. Weight loss can be very expensive, plus top speed will be hp-controlled. And, I'm not sure any manufacturer would like their bikes to be dyno-tested at every race. After all, hp is a competitive advantage.
Oh well, it's all bullshit anyway. How much RWHP do you think a factory-prepped 12R would make if it were eligible for supersport? Let's see; skimmed heads for higher compression, re-set squish, 5-angle or blend valve job, blueprinted engine, lightweight oil pressure spring , factory race pipe & ecm. What do you think? Over 100? |
Rick_a
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 02:30 pm: |
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I've had the opportunity to speak to someone who was the lead tech of a prominent Buell race team. His sentiments towards the AMA closely mirrored what Erik and others have had to say. So who's a liar?
You guys still arguing this class structure stuff? F-USA does have it right IMO...and they are setting hp/weight limits for some classes. I think that makes perfect sense. There's different ways to get competitive...and I think it's cool that their rules allow that leverage while keeping the racing close.
Like Blake has repeated over and over, FUSA and a couple other organizations set general displacement limits for different engine configurations in order to have an even field and therefore allow for more diversity in classes that would otherwise be exclusive. I think setting a single displacement limit for all machines/configurations is plain stupid.
BTW, anybody else going to see the F-USA races in Daytona in Oct?
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