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Vosnick52
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 08, 2009 - 07:04 pm: | 
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I bought a 07'M4 Emgo 600 supersport race bike in 08' and it made 127hp at the rear and it was about the strongest out there without being a grenade. |
Ridenusa4l
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 08, 2009 - 07:50 pm: |
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admin- thats what i heard, and i was just thowin it out there becasue i knew what i saw, but i wasnt 100% sure..well sorry for not stating the truth,...so basically the only bike that can rev that high is moto gp?? hmmm buell moto gp?? lol i can dream..
Jake |
Sburns2421
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 08, 2009 - 09:25 pm: |
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Re: WSBK
It will be difficult to meet the homologation requirements for the 1190 to be legal. The minimum number of production bikes produced goes up from 1000 to 3000 starting in 2010 IIRC.
WSBK isn't like DMG which would bend the rules at will. |
Bettybuell
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 08, 2009 - 09:57 pm: |
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Buell didn't "bend the rules" or they would have been protested when they were winning. Maybe DMG adjusted the rules to fit Buell, but you make it sound like Buell cheated. |
Sburns2421
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 08, 2009 - 11:12 pm: |
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For Daytona Sportbike I agree, all the manufacturers agreed to the rules before the season started, many expected Buell 2009 to be like the XB-RR and uncompetitive. I rooted for them in Sportbike.
Daytona Superbike with the 1125RR is a different story however. The rules stated the bike had to be street-legal, which the RR clearly is not. It opens the door for basically turnkey race bikes from companies like Yoshimura. The RR is based on the R of course, perhaps a better way to have created the bike would have been to sell a kit for $30k in which you tear an 1125R completely down and rebuild it as an RR. DMG allowed this to the consternation of the Japanese manufacturers, which did nothing to improve relations between the Big Four and DMG.
This is not an issue of cheating but of the sanctioning body choosing not to be consistent with their rule book. Not the same thing. |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 08, 2009 - 11:39 pm: |
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he rules stated the bike had to be street-legal, which the RR clearly is not.
And which of the bikes on the Superbike grid would be street legal?
BTW, Buell attempted to sell the kit and was asked to build a complete racebike. I actually see this as a more cost effective way for Superbike teams. There is an interesting article in the latest RRW magazine where Chris Ulrich leased a Yosh engine (along with support from Yosh) for the NJMP round IIRC. It obviously isn't a complete racebike, but its a signficant portion of one. |
Sburns2421
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 12:33 am: |
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The production machine the race is based on has to be street-legal. Surely you understood that.
The question is whether you contend the 1125R was the basis of the bike, or the 1125RR was its own model that was the basis that was used in Daytona Superbike. |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 12:58 am: |
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The question is whether you contend the 1125R was the basis of the bike, or the 1125RR was its own model that was the basis that was used in Daytona Superbike.
It's it pretty obvious that the 1125r is the basis for the RR? It's at least as close as any of the other Superbikes on the grid. The only difference is that Buell Racing built the RR, rather than a race team. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 06:55 am: |
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"It opens the door for basically turnkey race bikes from companies like Yoshimura."
Uhm, that door has been open a long time. Nothing in the rules prevents any race team from selling their racing machines to others. That is exactly what Erik Buell Racing is doing, selling their racing machines, all based upon the 1125R to others. As always, some get all twisted up in the fact that they don't necessarily entirely tear down a stock bike, throw away all the street parts, and re-assemble with race parts. Some are all twisted up in knots over the fact that Buell was allowed to simply assemble from scratch the racing machine using the very same street parts and racing parts, but without having to completely tear down an actual fully assembled street bike.
That is the only difference and it is not even tangible. Additionally, Buell were made to agree to provide the machines at reasonable cost to any pro racers wanting to run them in Superbike and also to provide full factory parts service as well. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 07:00 am: |
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"The production machine the race is based on has to be street-legal. Surely you understood that.
The question is whether you contend the 1125R was the basis of the bike, or the 1125RR was its own model that was the basis that was used in Daytona Superbike."
AMA Pro Racing made it crystal clear that the 1125R is baseline production street bike upon which the 1125RR is based. I've ever seen a plausible argument to the contrary. You have to really be a Buell hater with a huge chip on your shoulder to try to paint the 1125RR as a brand new stand alone model not based on the 1125R. |
Sburns2421
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 09:49 am: |
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With a GSXR1000 or Ducati 1098R, you can take the DMG race bike and replace the race components (ECU for example) with stock pieces and in theory make the bike street-legal again. The question is whether the 1125RR could ever have this ability with its significantly revised intake system.
The heart of the controversy surrounding the 1125RR all falls under allowable modifications and where the boundary is with respect to certain systems on the bike. AMA & DMG have been notoriously vague on this subject. Does anyone remember the XB-RR had completely different cases, melted down from production parts because a pushrod air-cooled motor was allowed "unlimited" modifications? Certainly not in the spirit of the rules.
WSBK is much more clear about what is allowed and what isn't. They have been burned by bikes like the Petronas which never saw production, and were on BMW this year to make sure their homologation minimum was met. Unlike what a previous poster hoped for WSBK, the 1125RR simply is not legal for the series and never will be, it is as simple as that.
Please don't misunderstand, I really like the 1125R. The first Buell I have ridden that I actually considered to buy, although I wouldn't now as I typically keep bikes long-term and there will be problems keeping these on the road in a few years as supplies of key parts dry up.
I would say that I now am a Harley hater as I think they don't have a clue how to appeal to anyone other than a certain demographic. As soon as they dump MV it will just be the black & orange again, a brand with an aging and shrinking core customer base. Their handling of the Buell closure definitely had a malicious undertone, we will never know the true cost of closing it but it will be more in reality than they say in lost future sales. Some such as myself have sworn off H-D, and I am exactly the type of potential customer they need. |
Davegess
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 10:10 am: |
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Buell, because of its size and lack of money did not have a dedicated race shop independent of the factory to build a superbike special like Yosh does.
Since they hav to build them in facililty that does street bikes they have to make them with race only VINs and call them a seperate model. If they could ship a nearly complete bike to a race shop that sould turn out the finished bike they might have been able to avoid that. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 10:16 am: |
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"With a GSXR1000 or Ducati 1098R, you can take the DMG race bike and replace the race components (ECU for example) with stock pieces and in theory make the bike street-legal again."
That is false, unless you are talking about replacing the virtually the entire engine. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 10:17 am: |
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"WSBK is much more clear about what is allowed and what isn't."
That is false. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 10:23 am: |
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"there will be problems keeping these on the road in a few years as supplies of key parts dry up."
That is provably false, and you have changed your story. Your previous reason for not purchasing was that the price, $6,900, was too high.
(Message edited by blake on December 09, 2009) |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 10:26 am: |
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Smells of troll in here. |
Sburns2421
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 11:56 am: |
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Look, think what you want about WSBK, the Buell in any form will not be there. The manufacturers have to go to great lengths to meet the requirements for the series regardless of what you think you know.
As far as returning the race bikes to street-legality it has been done, and Yoshimura for one has also built race engines that are on bikes with license plates. Are they absolutely street-legal, satisfying all regulations? No, but then again neither is any of the millions of bikes with a loud aftermarket pipe. The point I was making is that the 1125RR, as it would have been delivered by Buell, was not nor likely ever could be street-legal. Do you disagree it was not in the spirit of the rules?
I was on the fence about the 1125R before the closing announcement then I finally went in and tried it. Very impressive. Looking back to October I got a case of bike fever, and in hindsight the dealership lies did me a favor. The more he talked the lower my offer TO HIM was going to be. I could have driven three hours and bought one for a few hundred more than I offerred them. After reconsidering, I'm glad I didn't buy one. That doesn't make it a bad bike, but it is definitely one where the ownership experience may be a bigger challenge than many expect. Harley will not support it a nanosecond longer than they have to. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 12:12 pm: |
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Troll stink getting worse.
"As far as returning the race bikes to street-legality it has been done, and Yoshimura for one has also built race engines that are on bikes with license plates. Are they absolutely street-legal, satisfying all regulations? No...
The baloney is piling up ever higher too. |
Sburns2421
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 12:26 pm: |
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Don't offer a counterpoint, just start calling names. Great tactic when you have no response.
I asked a question about the spirit of the rules, will you offer your opinion on the subject? |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 12:44 pm: |
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There is no way in hell the Yosh "stealth" bike as featured in one of the cycle mags would pass a smog test. There is no way a true Superbike engine could double as a street going bike due to the extremely short rebuild intervals of the full blown race engine, which is only a few hundred miles. |
Fast1075
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 12:57 pm: |
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And a full on race engine would be one lousy biatch to try to ride on the street.
AND... I can't imagine anyone paying the money it would cost for a Yosh engine to waste it going the few miles that it would stay together. Lets just say it would be VERY expensive. |
Froggy
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 01:28 pm: |
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Anything that could be done to a Japanese superbike to make it "street legal" could be done to the 1125RR. Sounds like from what you are describing, all you would need is lights and a license plate. That wouldn't be hard to rig up in an afternoon and some use of a Dremmel. As mentioned before, you wouldn't be able to pass a smog test obviously.
Question is, why would anyone do it? The bare minimum "street legal" bike wouldn't be ridable or practical on the street. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 03:44 pm: |
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Sburns,
What "significantly revised intake system"? It sounds like you don't really know what an 1125RR was. If titanium valves and cams with a little more oomph count as a significantly revised intake system, then I guess so, but I don't think many would interpret it that way if they knew the reality.
The 1125RR was a kitted 1125R with a handful of hot-rod parts. H-D wouldn't let Buell make a street version with those parts in it, and DMG wouldn't let the parts be sold as a kit. So it came from the factory with the kit installed, labeled as race only.
But there was absolutely no unfair advantage. In fact, the motor isn't as radical as a 1098R. Less displacement, smaller valves, no desmodromics. It's just a street twin hot-rodded.
What a travesty that it gets attacked as a "race special" in a "streetbike class". That's pure semantics and has nothing to do with any unfair advantage. All the kitted bike did was make up for the fact that H-D wouldn't let Buell release it as a streetbike.
Yoshimura running billet crankshafts and traction control in Superbike when those were against the rules, now that was unfair... |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 04:04 pm: |
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FYI, DMG/AMA didn't want it as a kit, because it would be less work for a privateer to buy a pre-kitted bike than having to install a kit onto an 1125R. So they were trying to help privateers, but did that ever get mentioned? No, they get crushed by the Japanese-biased media.
WSBK happens to have written some pretty crazy rules in their early years while they were trying to establish the series. How about the Foggy Petronas with a MotoGP engine in a GP chassis with 50 "street legal" units? Or the Cosworth Aprilia works bikes that had complete new motors (different castings, etc., etc. in them? Luckily the press didn't crucify them for it, and so good racing started to occur, good press, more race attendees, and a profitable series.
Here instead DMG/AMA just gets attacked incessantly, to the total detriment of everyone. Last year had the best racing in the AMA for a long time. But because of the bad press, many people missed seeing some epic multi-lead change racing.
Spectators followed the media lead by "protesting" and not attending. Potential sponsors got cold feet and pulled out becasuse of all the negativity. It's so sad to see a few media people's egos destroying our sport. |
Jaimec
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 04:15 pm: |
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quote:H-D wouldn't let Buell release it as a streetbike.
WTF?? |
Vagelis46
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 04:21 pm: |
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Buell in 2011 WSBK championsip ???
That is great news !!! An American bike in WSBK ?? Does anyone think that FIM will not make sure it happens ?? If Buell is ready to do it , it will happen. And we are going to be there !
F%ck the rules. We want to see some racing. |
Chessm
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 05:27 pm: |
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i feel so bad for the DMG/Buell horse...its been dead for a while and yet people cant stop beating on it
poor horsie  |
Liquorwhere
| | Posted on Thursday, December 10, 2009 - 06:04 pm: |
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WSBK happens to have written some pretty crazy rules in their early years while they were trying to establish the series. How about the Foggy Petronas with a MotoGP engine in a GP chassis with 50 "street legal" units? Or the Cosworth Aprilia works bikes that had complete new motors (different castings, etc., etc. in them? Luckily the press didn't crucify them for it, and so good racing started to occur, good press, more race attendees, and a profitable series.
Didn't the AMA do a similar thing for HD in the early 90's for the VR1000? Street legal in Poland if I remember correct, and only 50 made, numbered, and sold mostly to dealer principles? There is a guy in Sarasota that owns two...nice looking bikes. Anyway, my point is that the AMA and HD are very (or maybe better where) tight, this is not a point that most would question, and possible there is a perception, let me emphasize PERCEPTION, by some that HD (by proxy as Buell is owned by the MoCo) in some way influenced DMG similarly to HD influencing the AMA in the past?
Who knows....maybe that would be part of reason the stories that were and still are slanted away from Buell with respect to the 1125RR...I still think it was illegal, but that is just me. So...there ya go.... |
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