| Author | Message | ||
     Rwven |
Given the relative strength of the Adventure bike market, in retrospect, would an 1125 Uly type bike have been a better choice marketwise than the 1125CR? | ||
| Hughlysses |
Good question. Based on posts here, it seems we're split exactly 50/50 on whether the Helicon would have made a good engine for an adventure bike or not. There have been hints dropped by at least 3 people in the last few days that a new model was coming out next July, and I suspect we'll find out what that model was shortly. Maybe they did have an 1125 Uly in the works. | ||
| Thunderbox |
Dream on people. | ||
| Mn_kid |
I doubt it would have helped, they still would've had the same HD dealer network/support, or lack thereof. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
they would have to rework the tranny on that thing, and the clutch, to make it a capable off road bike. and probably detune the hell out of it 146hp on dirt?!?! It would be great for the insurance industry. | ||
| Froggy |
Slicker, take it from first hand experience with my CR, its a boatload of fun on dirt! | ||
| Nadz |
I don't think so: grand tourers live by efficiency and reliability. My 12R usually always got >55mpg, but the 1125's seem to peg out at <40. Simpel fizziks: long-stroke V-twin torquer vs. oversquare twister. The XB's are also easy to wrench, owing to less components and (dare I say it) a bombproof bar-and-shield motor. I never had to fix a single thing in five years. Also- can you imagine the pods all full of rocks and mud? Thos things are supposed to be rammed full of air at highway speeds. Just my .02, -Nadz | ||
| Khelton |
That 1125 motor would have felt a lot like the KTM Adventure through the throttle, which is a sweet motor. the extra 2,000 RPM would have won a lot of people over.... | ||
| Etennuly |
After riding Froggy's CR I could easily see a 1125U. It is what you do with the power that counts. I rode in the rain, stop and go and at 60-65 mph, it was amazingly smooth and manageable. Very easy to throttle and control even in bad conditions. That was my main concern about the more powerful engine, control and smoothness of operation. It has it. So many powerful bikes are difficult to handle down low and mid range. This thing has it all covered. | ||
| Froggy |
Nadz, my best tank of gas with my 09 CR was 53mpg. About 230 miles before the gas light came on. The 1125 is about the same ease as the XB for working on. 2 holes that need draining during an oil change, and then there is a cartridge type filter instead of a screw on. I don't have first hand experience yet with dropping the motor, but from what I read its easer than the XB. I don't have to imagine the pod full of rocks, I had it happen. Took about 10 minutes for me to figure out how to get the pod cover off to dump it out, and then put it back on. Perhaps some kind of quick release screws can be used instead. Oh, and this thing is more comfortable than my Uly, doesn't shake like a jackhammer at idle, has tons of more power, gauges that actually give useful info, and superior handling to the XB. To be honest, I lost all desire to repair my XB after buying this thing, it is superior in every single way. I haven't even modded it yet. Every change I have made to the bike can be removed in 30 seconds without tools, and it consists of a GPS, XM radio, phone mount/charger, heated gear plug, and a touring seat. Bike is still 100% stock in terms of ECM/intake/exhaust, I still got that intake solenoid hooked up, I have never made it kick in yet. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
My problem is the stuff I am riding is actually more technical than fire roads, Stuff where you need a sub 300 lb bike, a 21 tire, knobbies and a granny first  now a 450 rotax Rooster.... delicious. | ||
| Nadz |
Point taken, Frog. Those are just my reasons (especially the wrenching). I really wanted the CR (still do and said as much in my letter to Erik), but the Uly was what I should have had all along. If they build a better one... | ||
| Seanp |
What about an XB12X and an XB11XT? I alternate between riding the Triumph and riding the Uly to work, and the Triumph engine is so much nicer. Riding the Uly feels like riding a tractor. But the 675 doesn't have any luggage space. So on the days where I have to carry more than my laptop and whatever can fit in the tank bag, it's the Uly. If I could have that smooth 1125 engine in a Uly chassis, that would be the best. And I've got the KLX for bombing around the singletrack in the woods, so I don't bother taking the Uly down much more than a dirt road here and there. But really, what's the point of "what if's"? | ||
| Edgydrifter |
Yeah, but it's a hella rapid tractor, and I really think the design and character of the XB motor suits the XT better than the Rotax would. Now, admittedly, gunning the 1125 on the freeway produces a better rush and the motor sounds glorious, especially when it "fires" on startup. The XB mill just seems more sensible and useful for the XT--and useful is what the XT is all about. | ||
| Timberwolf211 |
I would have loved to seen a 1125 Uly or even more a ST. But when the 06 Uly came out I read the big article that Cycle World did and the comment from EB himself was that Sport Tourers dont sell. I think that was a very incorrect statement. I think he would have had a bigger market than he thought and it being a Buell would be better. | ||
| Buewulf |
An 1125 Uly would have helped 3 or 4 years ago. It would have been (and would still be) a very popular bike, and the market was primed for it. The motor could have been tuned for gruntier low-end and midrange response, and the larger fuel capacity of the new frame would be a plus, too. I think Buell's sales figures would be significantly higher today. Most people I know love the look and utility of the Uly but are jaded against the HD derived engine and tranny. That has always been a marketing issue for Buell. I like the XB motor a lot, and I love that it is air-cooled with self adjusting valves. But after coming off an SV1000, I have to say the Suzuki motor feels just about as strong as the XB from 2500 to 6500 rpms and then absolutely rips between 6500 and redline. I would love that mill in the Uly: radiator, shims and all. Oh, well. Day late and a dollar short, so the saying goes. I am just glad I have a Uly at all! | ||
| Ourdee |
I want a diesel engine in my Uly with a splitter in the final output shaft for the belt giving it 10 gears that could still be shifted like a five speed with wider gear ratios. | ||
| Nadz |
I have been wondering that for years... Why Not Diesel? They're everything a bike wants- torquey, sparkless, great mileage, loud and clattery but thats good on a bike right? | ||
| Hughlysses |
Here you go- Track T-800. 800 cc common rail injection turbo diesel, CVT transmission:  http://www.dieselmotorcycle.co.uk/ There's been lots of discussion on these bikes on ADVrider. | ||
| Wbrisett |
would an 1125 Uly type bike have been a better choice marketwise than the 1125CR Well as a new owner of an 1125CR, and an owner of an '07 Uly, let me just say that the 1125 Engine on a Uly wouldn't have been a match made in heaven. You want an engine that you can lug a bit if needed off road, that isn't the 1125, you also want better gas mileage than the 1125 is currently providing me (I really hope it does better than the 37/38 I'm getting after break in). Honestly I think a better change would have been a smaller engine. Look at what the 800 GS has done, people snapped those things up and love them. For true multipurpose riding, you need a lighter bike, not a heavy bike like we have with the Uly. The bottom line is I don't think the 1125 engine on the Uly would be a match made in heaven. Wayne | ||
| Hughlysses |
Wayne- I picked up an 1125CR last weekend and I agree with you. The Helicon is an awesome engine, but I sure wouldn't want it in some places I've had my Uly. | ||
| Rwven |
You want an engine that you can lug a bit if needed off road A change of gearing and tuning? | ||
| Buewulf |
I am sure retuning would be all that is required, though quite a bit of engineering goes into that. Peak output would be reduced but should still be exciting. If people are getting less than 40mpg, though, that would be a big let down. I wouldn't think efficiency increases would be that drastic with a retune unless you cut power significantly. But there is presumably plenty of power to spare in the Helicon (haven't ridden one). | ||
| Atoms |
An 1125 Uly would have helped 3 or 4 years ago. It would have been (and would still be) a very popular bike, and the market was primed for it. If this was true, then why are there still lots of Buells with the 1125 motor sitting around dealers at fire sale prices and there are practically no Ulys left? | ||
| Froggy |
Because they produced more 1125's than Uly's over the last few years. I have read that about one third of the 2008MY production was the 1125R. | ||
| Buewulf |
"If this was true, then why are there still lots of Buells with the 1125 motor sitting around dealers at fire sale prices and there are practically no Ulys left?" -- Atoms 1) Like Froggy said - lots more of the Helicon bikes were produced than Ulys. 2) The market for adventures bikes is relatively strong, and the Ulysses was a good value even before the liquidations. The real question is how many of those leftover Ulys were snapped up by first-time Buell owners. Some, I'm sure, but I bet most (just guessing here) were purchased by current or past Buell owners. Failure to attract new buyers was Buell's biggest impediment to success. I think a Helicon Uly would have made a differences 3 - 4 years ago because I think it would have converted riders from other brands much more successfully than the prejudiced "low-tech, push rod Harley motor" (consumer perception, don't call me a troll!) that people love to hate. Adventure bikes had a strong market then, and you don't need a race program to sell them. I think the scenario would have changed Buell's fortunes. MHO. | ||
| Wbrisett |
The real question is how many of those leftover Ulys were snapped up by first-time Buell owners. If you look at the 1125 section of this board and count how many of us bought 1125R and 1125CR bikes recently, you'll see that while they may have sold some outside the Buell circles, most of the bikes seem to have been snatched up by existing Buell customers. However, I think a lot of this has to do us already knowing what a kick ass bike the Buell is, and wanting to get our hands another before that chance passed us by. Wayne (Message edited by wbrisett on October 26, 2009) | ||
| Hmartin |
When it comes to power, too much is never enough, is it? The late John Lingenfelter once gave an interview where he mentioned how disappointed some ZR1 Vette owners were who sent their cars to him because they expected the darn things to nearly pop the front wheels off the ground. I may be the weirdo, here, but the 'ol pushrod lump probably the main thing that attracted me to Buell in the first place. Buell had something truly unique. I enjoyed watching Buell take the Evolution engine and slowly turn it into the Thunderstorm. I hated how the print media basically savaged it year after year for for being underpowered "yesterday's technology" while politely excusing the BMW boxer engine for the same supposed faults. Frankly, I like the lump. I like the refined rawness of it, the at times ill-tempered and other times well-mannered operation of it, the unique sound of it, the wheelie-inducing torque of it - all of it. It's what I wanted. | ||
| Buewulf |
...most of the bikes seem to have been snatched up by existing Buell customers. I am not saying that the same isn't true for the 1125's. That is certainly what I would expect of the 1125's especially because it is a fairly new and unproven product that has been discontinued. (Where as the air-cooled bikes have greater populations and limited powertrain similarities to the Sportster that will entertain more aftermarket options for parts when HD's commitment expires.) That certainly fortifies my belief that while an 1125 Uly may have been effective four years ago, it probably wouldn't have if introduced recently. The Helicon just came out too late in the game to have a sales impact, and ironically, I don't think the R was the right bike from which to launch the platform. Hmartin - I must admit I like the XB engine too, as well as BMW's latest boxer, Ducati's air-cooled 1100, and Guzzi's 1200. All of them are old-school, and all of them approach the issue of getting power to the ground differently. (Message edited by Buewulf on October 26, 2009) | ||
| Atoms |
1) Like Froggy said - lots more of the Helicon bikes were produced than Ulys. " Oh. I had the impression that the Ulys were the top sellers. But then again, my memory with data is not to be trusted. And of course sales is not the same as production. (Message edited by atoms on October 26, 2009) |
