| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
How is it not up to you to choose whether or not you are going to watch the coverage of the event on television or buy t-shirts from the event, or attend the event? To claim that that is not your decision or is irrelevant is, back my post above, idiotic. (Message edited by blake on August 04, 2009) | ||
| Macbuell |
11 people died on K2 last year on one expedition. One expedition. People have a choice and if the riders chose to no longer race, then it the IOMTT will die. As long as they continue to suit up and race, I will watch it because I am fascinated by their courage and love the history of the race. | ||
| Gregtonn |
...Don't be an idiot... As I suspected would be the case, you couldn't resist taking the low road. Those who race at the Isle of Mann do it for their own reasons. Most do it for the thrill, joy and sense of accomplishment they get from it. I will never be an advocate for taking that from them. Most if not all participants have friends, relatives or acquaintances who have died racing there. They could base their decision to continue on statistical data but instead most go with their heart. None are caged or chained and forced to race. Bring on the snarky comments, I'll reply if I deem it worthy of my time. G | ||
| Blake |
" I will never be an advocate for taking that from them." You're still stuck on stupid. You asked me for a number. I obliged. Now you prevaricate and refuse to reciprocate. You do so, because you understand all to well that you've lost the debate of ideas. If you say that you are okay with the current level of tragedy, then you look like a beast. If you say otherwise, you lose the debate. Either way, you've lost the debate. | ||
| Blake |
And FYI, "don't be an idiot" is advice. I'm looking out for you. | ||
| Gregtonn |
Blake, Unfortunately your dental issues seem to have affected your reasoning and whatever social skills you may have once had. I support those who race at the Isle of Mann. Carefully read the last sentence in the quote below aloud. Now think real hard. Get it? "Those who race at the Isle of Mann do it for their own reasons. Most do it for the thrill, joy and sense of accomplishment they get from it. I will never be an advocate for taking that from them." G | ||
| Blake |
I'm not asking if you will be an advocate for taking that from them. My social skills have always sucked. I kinda prefer it that way. What you are apparently lacking is the ability to comprehend the difference between a personal view and outward targeted activism against others. I'm not advocating activism. I'm stating my own personal view and choice. And I'm trying to get you to answer what is your personal view and choice? Will you be personally supporting (watching, purchasing t-shirts, and promoting the IOM motorcycle racing events here online) and what if any amount of tragedy there would compel you to shun it? It's a simple F@#$^ing question. (Message edited by blake on August 04, 2009) | ||
| Blake |
From: http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?lnk=r ss&article=37825 Nah, they're not interested in money.  Death for dollars, shameful. | ||
| Trojan |
I think what you (and everyone that attacks the IOM tourist board for promoting the TT)seem to forget is that they actively promote tourism in the Isle of Man all year. Not just at TT time. There area lot of other events ont eh island all year, ranging from motorsports (Manx Rally, Manx GP, short circuit road racing) through to music and film festivals, and as just a great place to visit. I don't like the safety record for cave diving, bull running, cliff jumping or alligator wrestling, but I don't bang on about it because I don't like it, I just make sure I am not involved. The the Isle of Man TT should be the same. If you don't like it then you don't have to take part or watch, but don't spoil it for those that are interested and are fully aware of the risks involved  | ||
| Blake |
Just sent this to the editor at www.RoadRacingWorld.com: Dear Sir or Ma'am, | ||
| Trojan |
I don't understand why you have such a bee in your bonnet about the isle of Man Blake. Do you live there? Has it affected you personally? Are you a friend or relative of any of the riders killed or injured on the island over the years? Were any of the said riders unaware of the risks they were undertaking when they signed up to race there? The Isle of Man Tourist board has a job to do, and of course they will promote the world's most historic motorcycle race to the best of their ability. The tourist board do not press gang competitors, neither do they withold the risks involved from those wishing to partake of their chosen sport. Maybe you should be writing to the people that can stop irrelavent and needless carnage in places where those being killed have little or no choice in the matter. Maybe places like as Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan, Somalia and countless other countries, rather than targetting a legitimate sporting event on the Isle of Man where those taking part do so willingly and the event is oversubscribed every year! Lastly, and just to put this whole argument into context: The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) estimated 52,447 deliberate and 23,237 accidental non-fatal gunshot injuries in the United States during 2000. The majority of gun-related deaths in the United States are suicides. with firearms used in 16,907 suicides in the United States during 2004. maybe you should be addressing the people who advertise, and make profit from, guns for sale? (Message edited by trojan on August 25, 2009) | ||
| Xb12xmike |
If no one ever died at the TT they would still be promoting it exactly as they are now. It is NOT carnage for profit. The only thing shameful in this topic is the actual protesting of one of the most fantastic motorcycle races in history. (and the email)} | ||
| Slaughter |
Don't make me dust off my argument about Penis Control. Aids Project LA shows that the aids infection rate EXCEEDS that of the firearm death rate - and since the aids infection is LARGELY spread through the male/male and male/female - you can say that PENISES kill more people than firearms. PENIS CONTROL NOW! (is that a bumper sticker or WHAT?) | ||
| Blake |
Matt, Your gun analogy is crap, utter rubbish. I'm not advocating against motorcycles; I'm advocating against the promotion of venue/event that kills way too many people. If there were another sporting event that racked up the horrendously bloody toll of the Isle of Man, count me in as being an advocate against its promotion. I suppose I'm as adamant as I am about the issue in part because I was once an ignorant supporter and promoter of the event right here on BadWeB. If no one ever died at the TT they would still be promoting it exactly as they are now. It is NOT carnage for profit. I agree, but that promotion would not have the effect of promoting death then would it. That is the problem. The point is that there are factors that SHOULD dissuade people from promoting or supporting the event, the fact that it kills WAY too many people. | ||
| Blake |
"Maybe you should be writing to the people that can stop irrelevant and needless carnage in places where those being killed have little or no choice in the matter. Maybe places like as Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan, Somalia and countless other countries" Who's to say I don't? Do you have a mailing address for al qaeda, the taliban? Equating war to a sporting event? That's rubbish too. Be honest, are you not the slightest bothered by the death toll at the Isle of Man? No? You, same the man who has railed about track safety so convincingly? | ||
| Jersey_thunder |
after reading this post i was very surprised...the number of deaths are very sad... my question is this....major motorports NASCAR/AMA ETC, are alway looking to make the track/rider/machine etc...safer,air bags/gravel pits/run off etc...has,isle of Man done any such thing? i do agree that any other "telivised sport" with the same number of deaths would be banned from public tv. the SAD side of this is...some people like to watch crashes and other very bad things on tv...they find it exciting.. blake..i agree...the numbers are sad, and for major tv to help promote such a event should be reconsidered just my #.02 jt | ||
| Trojan |
Be honest, are you not the slightest bothered by the death toll at the Isle of Man? No? You, same the man who has railed about track safety so convincingly? I am saddened by any deaths in motorcycling. I am saddended more by deaths on the public roads than by news of race deaths at the Isle of Man though. The organisers at the Isle of Man do everything they can to lessen the risk WITHIN THE CONFINES OF THE EVENT. The medical teams and track marshalls are the best trained, and probably the best overall in the world. The ambulance Helicopter is excellent. Nobles hospital has all of the equipment needed and the skills on hand to use it. Everything that can be done to lessen injuries is already done. However the TT course is what it is, and is the reason why so many people want to race there. If you turned it into a larger scale Brands Hatch then nobody would want to race there any longer and it would not be the TT. Since they closed the 'lethal' Nurburgring Nordscheif section there have been thousands of motorcyclists and motorists queuing up every day to pay to ride/drive the track. That is the nature of man. If we decide to stop the TT because people get killed what is next? Ban crossing the road, smoking, drinking, sex......It is done with the participants complete and utter free will, and I for one hope it continues for a very long time. It is always the list of deaths that is trotted out in these arguments, but never the staggering amount of competitors that race every year and go home, nor the huge mielage covered every year at the TT and Manx GP by competitors and spectators alike, which dwarfs other race meetings by many thousands of miles. Short circuit racing is completely different and there is no excuse on a short circuit for poor safety. A short circuit is not public road 50 weeks of the year, but is built specifically for the purpose of racing. There is no excuse for poor safety at a short purpose built race circuit any more, and they cannot be compared to a road circuit such as the TT. My Father raced at the Manx GP and the TT. He, like many many thousands of others that have done so since the event started was well aware of the risks involved and the penalty for making mistakes (more so in the period when he raced, when safety equipment was less than marginal!). I know exactly what his reply to your argument would be. | ||
| Blake |
I'm not advocating that the racing there be ended. I'm protesting against the folks making money from it. | ||
| Blake |
The folks selling advertising and airing it on television. The folks promoting it to aid their local economy. That's all. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
The racers wouldn't do it, unless they wanted to...they have a choice. I have the utmost respect for them. Really, I hope to be able to go there one day to witness it in person. | ||
| Dentguy |
i do agree that any other "telivised sport" with the same number of deaths would be banned from public tv. What about The Deadliest Catch on the Discovery Channel? Maybe not a "sport", but... "According to the pilot episode, the death rate during the main crab seasons averages out to nearly one fisherman per week, while the injury rate for crews on most crab boats in the fleet is nearly 100% due to the severe weather conditions (frigid gales, rogue waves, ice formations on and around the boat) and the danger of working with such heavy machinery on a constantly rolling boat deck. Alaskan king crab fishing reported over 300 fatalities per 100,000 as of 2005, with over 80% of those deaths caused by drowning or hypothermia." | ||
| Trojan |
One last thing on the subject. Accidents in the Isle of Man TT are rarely if ever televised, and fatal accidents are never televised by the TV companies covering the events. Accidents and fatalaties are an unfortunate fact when racing so close to obstacles and man made road furniture. Nobody involved in the TT or Manx GP would ever want to make any money out of a single death. The TT fortnight is a motorcycle festival that encompasses far more than the racing. If you ever getthe chance to go there you will see that it is a huge event that has the racing at its heart but is not the only event. The ISle of Man tourist board should be able to advertise and televise an event that thousands of people visit and take part in every year. Money made from the TT is ploughed back into the TT infrastructure for use in increased safety, more training, better road surfaces, better medical care etc, so is not just banked for profit by some faceless corporation. Can the same be said for Daytona bike week or other major motorcycle festivals? | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
Blake, I'm honestly confounded by your overzealous reaction to a 100 year old motorcycle race. I just can't help but think there's something more going on here that has manifested itself in your condemnation of supporters of the IOM TT. It's quite baffling. Manx racing has continued with or without outside support or promotion for over a century. If you really want to convince people that real road racing promotes carnage- convince the racers. I respect manx road racers more than any other form of motor sport, and your implication that because of this I have "blood on my hands" I find pitiable and insulting. | ||
| Liquorwhere |
Be honest, are you not the slightest bothered by the death toll at the Isle of Man? No? You, same the man who has railed about track safety so convincingly? Blake, With respect, I must make a post. I don't like to see anyone hurt, die or even crash. I am of course saddened by any death in motorcycling at all, racing or otherwise, but I must say that when I go, I hope it is on my bike, dying the way I lived. I think a few of those would probably say the same thing if one could ask them. I understand you are a bit put out of the Isle promoting or making money off of the event, but I must point out that winner's are paid...the racers are paid, and those that do it for free are seeking the thrill of a lifetime. I don't think this is the same as televising an execution or fights to the death. I don't think it is the Isle of bloody carnage, I think it is the Isle where dreams come true and some bad things happen, and in the process money is made. My 2 pennies. One more thing, I recorded each and every telecast on Discovery, and the world of motorcycle racing broadcaster's need to watch that event coverage to see how it should be done. Absolutely stunning coverage, amazing, felt at times like I was on the bike running the course...a man can dream yes?? (Message edited by liquorwhere on August 25, 2009) | ||
| Blake |
"Alaskan king crab fishing reported over 300 fatalities per 100,000 as of 2005" Three hundred per one hundred thousand. Okay. Care to compare that to IOM? How many competitors since 1990? I'd estimate around 100 new racers at IOM per year, max. That plus a generous 400 base yield 20*100 + 400 = 2,400 total motorcycle racers at IOM since 1990. Of those 2,400 racers, 73 have died. That amounts to 100,000/2400 * 73 = 3,041 per 100,000, over ten times the rate of the crab boats. But you raise a good point. I don't eat Alaskan crab. I won't watch the IOM coverage either. | ||
| Blake |
One last thing on the subject. Accidents in the Isle of Man TT are rarely if ever televised, and fatal accidents are never televised by the TV companies covering the events. That I can certainly attest to. I've been following the event with much interest and enthusiasm for some years, even helping promote it here on BadWeB, and I had no idea of the carnage. It's a very well kept and shameful bit of information. Imagine the effect if before each broadcast the commentator took a minute to explain the bloody history of the event. Accidents and fatalaties are an unfortunate fact when racing so close to obstacles and man made road furniture. Which is why no one anywhere should be promoting such a place for motorcycle racing. It's ludicrously dangerous. Nobody involved in the TT or Manx GP would ever want to make any money out of a single death. I sincerely doubt that. There are always greed heads lurking about in most any organization. Been there, experienced it first hand. Blew me clean out of the water. Love of money does some strange things to some people. I doubt that much more than 10% of the money that comes to the island is put back into the laudable efforts you describe. In the end, it is just maintaining a race course, not different than any other that hosts such a major event, except that this particular venue is literally mass murderer on the competitors it hosts. Daytona? No different from any other very popular and relatively safe racing venue in the world. Do you really want to compare the expense invested their for upkeep and safety versus the IOM? RedBuellJunkie, I'm not being overzealous in my view. I'm simply stating my opinion and acting upon my convictions, my sense of morality and integrity. As state above, one reason I may come across as so angry--I am angry--is that for years I too was seduced by the event, but I was entirely ignorant of its horrendous toll. That makes me angry at myself and the promoters, broadcasters, journalists, and sponsors. | ||
| Dentguy |
How many competitors since 1990? I'd estimate around 100 new racers at IOM per year, max. That plus a generous 400 base yield 20*100 + 400 = 2,400 total motorcycle racers at IOM since 1990. Of those 2,400 racers, 73 have died. That amounts to 100,000/2400 * 73 = 3,041 per 100,000, over ten times the rate of the crab boats. Good point. Number of deaths vs participants is higher. No disputing that. Very sad statistics. I was just trying to point out, in response to this comment (though not a televised sport), "i do agree that any other "telivised sport" with the same number of deaths would be banned from public tv." that more people die, probably every year, in the Alaskan crab fishing industry than the Isle of Man TT, yet people run to the TV to watch that show every week Discovery puts it on. It is called "Deadliest Catch" after all and they emphasize how people die every season crab fishing. Yet, people are standing in line to get onboard those boats and the show isn't being banned. I'm guessing Discovery is making a fine profit from it. Those crab fishing number of "fatalities per" may be different now since the number of boats in the fleet has dropped to about a third due to different rules. I'm no expert on the crab fishing business. Also, I don't want anyone to die at the Isle of Man TT or crab fishing, but I don't want either to go away. Don't care that much about the show. I just like eating crabs and watching the TT. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
The risk is what draws the racers and the viewers. AVERAGING 130 MPH is mind boggling with a course that has 10 MPH hairpin turns. That also draws viewers. It's a risky spectacle. The racers know the odds. Putting their balls on the table like they do, well all I can do is salute them. | ||
| Dbird29 |
I guess if Trojan hadn't spouted off about how unsafe Topeka was and how bad AMA acted by promoting for profit, Blake wouldn't have to rub his nose in the hypocrisy of The Isle of Mann event. | ||
| Trojan |
I doubt that much more than 10% of the money that comes to the island is put back into the laudable efforts you describe. You would be wrong. How much of the money raised by the AMA goes to improving places such as Topeka? I'll bet it is a much smaller percentage than the IOM spend on safety each and every year. Nobody forces you to watch the TT. Nobody forces you to go there (although if you did go there and see the work that is done first hand you may well climb off your high horse), so just don't watch it, simple. I have a very set attitude towards privately owned handguns that kill far more people than the IOM ever did (and generate more profit for manufacturers!) but don't start sending letters to everyone about it. |
