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Dynarider
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 08:06 am: | 
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Harley did. Look what happened to their sport bike
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And it didnt hurt Harley one bit. They dont need any publicity or anything from racing. I dont know why the hell they even got involved in the first place. Race a sportbike, but sell cruisers & Baggers??? Made no sense for them to be there.
And I dont hear Harley bemoaning the fact that they cant race Buells, maybe their mentality is the same reagrding their cruisers..who needs racing. |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 09:14 am: |
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Actually I have raced two strokes, much bigger ones than your 125, and they are a hoot. Lots of power, but low CG's and light weight to keep them flickable. Ohhh, how I wish I were still young enough to make the most of one again. And, heck, if I were the only guy on a 1000cc two stroke against 1000cc four strokes, hell, I wouldn't even need to make the most of it to win!
Good for you, i believe some people who have ridden modern 2 strokes would disagree with you(include myself) due to the fact that there is no way i could control a 1000cc 2 stroke, but than again i fear being killed(this a new revalation, but one Dyna backed up last year) and you are correct in the statement that you would not need all the power that is being produced to win, but wouldnt you want to at least try to give it full throtle(that would be my down fall) i guess its a matter of how good you know you are, and i do not feel i am good enuff to rife a bike that big, but others with more experience and talent are welcome to go for it, now just a matter of finding one, how about 2 gp 500 motors some how linked, truck pull style, cool yes ridable not sure |
Sarodude
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 10:11 am: |
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Blake-
Quote:Go karts are a great way to get into racing. But they do not illustrate the situation with street bike based pro motorcycle racing.
Absolutely true. Karting is tough in that there's no real "Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday" thing aside from the actual karters. My point was regarding how to deal with rules that are stacked against a current situation.
As an illustration, I think Roger Penske had a problem with the rules that were so soft WRT pushrod v6 motors at Indy. He got with Mercedes, explained to them why it was good to build this pushrod motor that they all KNEW would be made illegal the very next year, and built it.
Penske stoped whining and did something about what he thought was a silly rule. The engine they built caused the rule change he was looking for - AND it netted him and Mercedes a nice photo at the finish line.
Rick_a-
Quote:Saro...are not all the cart engines two strokes?
Nope. Not by a long shot. Most (ALL actually) gearbox engines were until the last couple of years. Now they're trying to get some equivalency going between 250 4 strokes and 125 2 strokes or 400 / 450 4 strokes and 250 2 strokes. This is mainly an issue with the more insane gearbox classes and not so much with the more traditional tiller engined 4 strokes or kart specific 100 / 135 / 150 cc 2 stroke classes. We should probably stop talking about karts though.
-Saro
ps - please spell kart with a K when speaking of 4 wheeled, unsuspended, no differential vehicles |
Eeeeek
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 10:49 am: |
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I liked the joke, Blake 
The problem is AMA doesn't care about Buell. They do care about the big 4 rice brands because those are their cash cows. Why? Because that's what the public wants. Pro Thunder failed because people weren't watching it, much like sidecar racing. A shame, really.
So the AMA is going for the biggest returns. The little guys don's mean shit to the AMA. I wonder if any of it is due to Erik's outspoken opinion of the AMA....I can't blame him, they have screwed him twice. Strange, because historically, the AMA has been kind to H-D (how the VR1000 was allowed to run with 50 units sold in Poland in the early 90's is still beyond me).
Vik |
Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 11:04 am: |
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>>>And I dont hear Harley bemoaning the fact
And you won't. They are, and rightly so, totally consumed with celebrating their 100th Anniversary.
I suspect that foreign manufactuers need the visibilty of AMA racing a heck of a lot more than Harley-Davidson and they have the $$$ to make the deal happen.
The difference between Erik Buell and the AMA had less to do with the verb "screwed" than simple honesty. "Screwed" can happen when you are simple outrun or out-smarted. When you are lied to, at least in my own mind, I ascribe far greater gravity.
The Buells represent a chance for the "normal" guy or gal to go racing and have fun at many levels sans a major brigade of motorhomes.
I view the AMA with a great deal of mistrust.
Court (busy arranging Team Elves motorhomes and 18 wheelers  ) |
Jim_M
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 11:12 am: |
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Blake, I have followed a great many debates on this board in the past 3 years I have been on, and very few things offend me (in general), but your "Jap daddies no likee." stink of racism.
Now, I'm not accusing you of anything, Blake, and I think this debate is definitely worthwhile to anyone interested in AMA racing, or racing in America in general, but it has been ruined in my eyes by this one comment that has been repeatedly typed over and over through this thread in your comments and the thread title (I know, I shouldn't be reading it if it offended me, but I'm far more interested in the content than the tone itself).
(not really looking for anything from you, nor would I ask you to edit anything [your house, your rules], but I just felt that you should be made aware of how the tones being made in your comments have affected at least one member) |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 11:29 am: |
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The Buells represent a chance for the "normal" guy or gal to go racing and have fun at many levels sans a major brigade of motorhomes.
Why is it only Buells that allow for normal people to go racing, why is it normal people can not go racing on an SV 650, or cbr 600????Why are other bikes excluded from normal racing thing you speak of, i see very few motor homes at local ccs events, but i do see a lot of cbr 600's
please expand on this thought |
Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 11:49 am: |
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>>>why is it normal people can not go racing on an SV 650, or cbr 600????
They can silly....the CBR is a simply wonderful bike. My point is that the AMA has carefully and nefariously manipulated to rules to stack the deck.
Frankly, I'd like to see the type of racing that would feature the likes oif Vik, Blake and some "real" (please don't start THAT debate) people.
The dealerships are ready, willing and able to committ some resources to racing, but the sum total of all the dealerships would pale in comparison to what one of the factory teams musters.
I like FUN racing. Racing did, arguably, not a lot for Harley; at least based on, what appeared to be,the roughytl 72 people in the stands at Daytona the last couple years I was there.
But.....There is NOTHING (except perhaps the Ducati) that sounds like a Buell or VR coming down the front straight.
Court
Court |
Msetta
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 11:58 am: |
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I'd like to add that while Jap may be short for Japanese, it's not the same as Brit or Aussie. I would call my British friend a Brit, my Australian friend an Aussie, I would never call my Japanese friend a Jap. |
Cjmblast
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 12:35 pm: |
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>>>but your "Jap daddies no likee." stink of racism.<<<
I'm not offended either as I read these postings, but it does seem a little bit tacky, and if I was Japaneese, I think that quote repeated so often would begin to offend me.
CJM |
Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 12:41 pm: |
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>>>I would never call my Japanese friend a Jap.
I agree.
I'm sitting here (don't aks me where, I've raised even my own ante and have wandered into the lunchtime Tarot group) reflecting on the things I've called Paul, Ross and Peter.
Calling Rocket an "Arse", I see, as falling under some sort of international exemption, but...fact is, you are right.
I did the "what if" test and asked myself if I'd use the term with any of the folks at Honda R&D in Torrence. I wouldn't.
Let's go back to arguing and try to keep the references to a "what would the Corporate PR folks say?" standard.
Court |
Jim_M
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 01:01 pm: |
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I don't mind the "Jap" part at all, it was that whole phrase, over and over...but as it is archived now, so, out of sight out of mind.
"Let's go back to arguing and try to keep the references to a "what would the Corporate PR folks say?" standard."
Fair enough, Court, I bow to your diplomacy and wisdom ;^D |
Mikej
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 01:16 pm: |
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"what would the Corporate PR folks say?"
Are we talking about an open or closed door meeting?????
 |
Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 01:21 pm: |
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>>>>Are we talking about an open or closed door meeting?????
Settle down and back to the discussion...there are lots of ideas and peoples thoughts to hear. I enjoy, frankly, hearing things from various perspectives, regardless of my own views.
Down boy |
Benm2
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 01:42 pm: |
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Here's a hypothesis. Let's say that each year, the racing rules are written around what bike may be competitive in a given "premier" class. Screw all the displacement, number of cylinders, and all that other crap.
Now, when do you make the determination of what bike is eligible for what class? Unless the bikes are raced in BONE STOCK condition, there is ample opportunity here for misrepresentation. Lets say that the average top-flight race team needs to start preparing NEXT season's machine in December. That would mean that the rules would have to be fairly firm by then. Hmm, new bike information is somewhat scarce during that timeframe. Let's say, then, that you get the factories to cooperate and provide you with pre-production SAE hp data, and estimated weight. That would provide at least a preliminary way to sort who goes where. This would provide for such interesting classifications as 2003 ZX7R's being categorized with 2003 ZX76RR's, and other wierdness.
Beyond that, though, look at the ample opportunities for cheating. Let's say you want to get your bike classified in supersport. So, you supply SAE figures & weights for a 1000 cc pushrod twin, and it turns out its roughly competetive in superstock. The bike gets categorized as such, rules are written, teams purchase & start development. Let's say, then, that you discover during development that the bike was fitted with a 45-lb exhaust system, and 1/4" thick fiberglass bodywork. Also, when you cut the brown wire out of the ECM, the bike picks up 15-hp. And, the airbox has a filter in it with a 20" pressure drop across it. Lastly, fitting the 10-lb titanium full-race exhaust frees up another 10hp. Suddenly, you're the overdog.
Are these extreme examples? Of course they are. But, big factories who count on racing to market their product will do it. At some point, you NEED to draw a line in the sand and say "here are the guidelines", however arbitrary they are, and unfair to specific engine configurations. The reason that club racing can support so many different classes is (a) the stakes of mis-classifying are lower (does anyone really care that WERA mis-classifies Buells, except us?)and (b) they can modify their class structure at will.
Even in the event that pushrod engines are given special dispensation, who's to say that a creative engineer couldn't overcome the "obstacle" that was responsible for its class? A creative engineering team led by a dynamic leader (hmm, know any?)could make a pushrod engine that could support near to 10,000 rpm. A 1200cc pushrod twin at 10,000 rpm would damn near be an overdog in SUPERBIKE, much less supersport.
Also, the AMA WILL favor the Japanese manufacturers, as they have put bread on the table for at least the last 20 years. If Buell (or anyone else) wants a piece of that action, the rules are there in black & white. There is NO obstacle standing in the way of a 600cc, water cooled, 45-degree, v-four engine. (well, maybe cash) Such an engine would sound amazing, I imagine, and without counterbalancing would shake nicely. However, it is not fair to categorize the AMA or the Japanese manufacturers as being unfair. Buell has CHOSEN not to compete on the same footing, for whatever reason, and may have asked for special dispensation. All things considered, allowing pro-thunder spec Buell's into superstock is already a violation of the "priciple" of superstock. IF you assumed that a full factory effort by HD & Buell in supersport could produce a bike that could handily compete against the 600 I-4's, what would you do? Consider that the suppliers of the I-4's have been supporting you for 20 years, and the decision gets tougher still.
The arena is there, the rules are basically unchanged for the last few years. If you want to play, then make the right tool for the job. |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 02:55 pm: |
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Ben...If such a machine was ever devised it'd have to go through the same channels as any other race machine.
If Buell started winning in a "premier" class...and the brand actually becomes popular...who knows the ramifications. It could end up being a sign of the Armageddon 
About Ducatis...I've noticed a lot of the "hard core" Japanese import enthusiasts have no respect for the brand. I've always found that strange. |
Benm2
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 03:04 pm: |
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maybe that's what they'd call the bike! The Buell Armageddon, coming soon to a dealer near you...
I've also noticed alot of japanese import enthusiasts say "you have a what?" when I say I've got a Buell. |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 04:12 pm: |
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Its not just the ama or even any of the big professional race promotors changing rules, all of your local small town dirt tracks do the same damn thing.
Several years ago...actually many years ago...I wanted to get in to the sportsman class at my local 1/3 mile clay track. Went out bought a car from someone who campaigned it the previous year & did some minor updates. Raced it for the year & had some fun, but definately lost my ass on the $$$ aspect. Dirt tracks dont pay squat.
Anyways Im getting ready for the following year whenI get notice that basically my car is no longer going to be allowed. They simply changed the sportsman cars into latemodels. My car no longer fit the rules & I had no $$ to buy a new car, so I had no choice but to quit.
Looking back on it now its no big deal & they did me a favor. Saved me from another year of dumping $$ into something with no possibility of seeing any actual cash return.
Point is, it happens to everyone not just Buell or Ducati. If they dont fit the new classes either upgrade so you can race or go sit in the stands & watch. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 04:16 pm: |
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Quote:Frankly, I'd like to see the type of racing that would feature the likes of Vik, Blake and some "real" (please don't start THAT debate) people.
It's called Battletrax, and Buell will sponsor a Nationwide series this year with a final event in Las Vegas. It should get Buell great press and hopefully start a trend.
Quote:Ben...If such a machine was ever devised it'd have to go through the same channels as any other race machine.
Right like the FP1 Petronas just did. The Malaysian based company built 75 street legal bikes, then called the FIM to claiming that they did.
The FIM inspectors went to Malaysa, inspected the completed bikes, and gave Foggy Petronas their certification so that they can race in WSBK this year.
Hans Blix should talk to the FIM to see how inspections are supposed to work.
Kawasaki just built 1000 ZX6RR's for FIM/AMA certification to race in their Supersport classes. Honda had to do the same with their CBR600RR
Everybody has to do it that way, except for Buell. The AMA has exempted them from the usual homologation, displacement and technical rules that Superstock or Supersport bikes have to follow. Ducati 749's still have to displace 749cc, but are also exempt from the homologation and technical rules.
Like Ben said, this violates the "principle" of Superstock and Supersport racing. If it was up to me I would not allow it. But it's not and I have no problem with the AMA's reasoning.
But some people want Buells to race in the AMA, so the AMA put them where they thought they would have the best chance, but some people are not happy with that.
They would rather put them in a class where they would get SPANKED even worse because of the Superbike riders and teams running the factory prepped 600's in the AMA Supersport.
When Buell or Ducati become competitive in AMA Superstock, then they can make the case that they should be moved over to Supersport. Until then, race in AMA Superstock or go race FUSA and only read about what you did in RRW, because you won't have any TV exposure doing it.
One last thing about the rules. British Superbike rules are 1000cc based. World Superbike rules are 1000cc based. Japan Superbike rules are the same. It only makes sense for the AMA to do the same, especially since AMA and WSBK race together at Laguna Seca.
Why is that race so exciting? Because the best of the AMA race the best of WSBK.
Imagine if WSBK was 1000cc based and the AMA had remained 750cc based this year.
Eric Bostrom, Mat Mladin, Aaron Yates, etc would have had to build a special "one race" 1000cc bike to race as a wild card in the WSBK event at Laguna. Not going to happen.
At least now they have the same "platform" to race against the WSBK 1000cc bikes. We'll see how it turns out. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 09:58 pm: |
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BenM2,
"A 1200cc pushrod twin at 10,000 rpm would damn near be an overdog in SUPERBIKE, much less supersport."
NASCAR Winston Cup engine builders would disagree. They get 750BHP at the crank out of a 360 CI watercooled V8. Translating that power output (just over 2HP/CI) to 74 CI V2 gives 154 BHP at the crank or approximately 131 RWHP. Superbikes are putting down more than 160 RWHP. Care to rethink your theory now that you know the facts? 
"At some point, you NEED to draw a line in the sand and say "here are the guidelines", however arbitrary they are, and unfair to specific engine configurations."
Funny how that "line" continually changes in AMA Pro Racing, continually shifting to the advantage of their Japanese Benefactors (for Jim et al :thumbsup.
"Also, the AMA WILL favor the Japanese manufacturers, as they have put bread on the table for at least the last 20 years.
IF you assumed that a full factory effort by HD & Buell in supersport could produce a bike that could handily compete against the 600 I-4's, what would you do? Consider that the suppliers of the I-4's have been supporting you for 20 years, and the decision gets tougher still."
Like I've said. If they want to loyally support only their Japanese benefactors, they need to rename the racing organization to something OTHER than what it is. Call it "Japanese Marketing Pro Racing", or "AMA Pro Japanese Racing", or "Pacific Rim Pro Racing".
I'll be VERY interested to see what happens when Honda releases the street version of the RC211V and wants to take it SBK racing.
JQ,
I am not opposed to liter bike IL4's in SBK. I am opposed to allowing the liter bike IL4's the same level of performance modifications and/or minimum weight restrictions that the twins are allowed. Capice? If a 750cc IL4 can win three of the last four AMA SBK championships against the best of the V-Twin entries, certainly you can see that allowing the literbike IL4's the same performance mods is patently unfair. Let the literbike IL4's in, as has already been done. But restrict their weight and performance modifications appropriately. Or lose Ducati and any other twin oriented mfgr from AMA racing. Do you really want to see only Japanese IL4's in AMA road racing's two premier series?
Superstock bikes are significantly... FASTER... than supersport bikes. Your logic is correct. You have the class performance levels confused. So I guess what you are really saying is that the Buells and Ducati 748/749's should be allowed in Supersport. I agree. |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 11:27 pm: |
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Well, what are all those competitive 1000's in WSB? TWINS. If the rules were even for IL 4 1000's you'd better believe those twins would get spanked a majority of the time.
Funny how the Pro Thunder bikes make about the same HP/Liter as the Winston Cup cars.
Hey José, you ever feel claustrophobic having your head stuck in such a narrow box? Seeing how twins have generally always been given a displacement advantage over multi's due to the limitation of their design...why is it so bad for a pushrod twin with it's limitations to have a break, too?...or any other engine configuration for that matter. If homologation is the problem, maybe High Country Buell/Nallin racing can put out a "production" run of 1350cc Buell Armageddons  ? |
Benm2
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 07:45 am: |
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Blake:
Nope. I'd think that a motorcycle engine could be made to make more power than the NASCAR engines, as a typical superbike race is shorter, and isn't run at WOT for 90% of the race.
So, when the AMA originally modified the superbike rules to allow for 1000cc twins, they did it 'cause Soichi told them too? Hmm.
In addition, your negative attitude towards the AMA & the support of the Japanese manufacturers is saddening. They haven't loyally supported the Japanese manufacturers, they've loyally supported the organizations that (1) sell the most sportbikes in the US and (2) provide the funding & support for the racing series. They are awarding loyalty with loyalty, which as a basic premise is an good way to run business relationships.
H-D's recent superbike effort (50 polish streetbikes?) of several seasons of mediocre performance surely would have affected a decision of where to put Buell. The AMA has NO REASON to beleive that HD lacks the resources to develop a motorcycle that would be competetive within ANY of the existing class structures. In addition, they HAVE ALREADY given them special treatment by allowing them to run superbike-spec bikes in superstock.
Ducati sees the writing on the wall. The FIM is in their backyard, yet superbike rules are getting rewritten for 1000cc fours. WHAT A TRULY AMAZING COINCIDENCE that Ducati has developed a v-four??!! Ducati wants to be known as a racing company, there will be a v-4 streetbike soon that makes GSXR1000's look slow & ugly. Or, alternately, they will whine that their existing configuration needs to be allowed unlimited displacement so as to compete against the unfair Japanese juggernaut.
Designing & building a competetive engine is not something that takes years of intensive research, unless you're trying something really new. Britten did it WITHOUT H-D's financial resources; Proton has developed a V-5 engine in less than a year. With KR at the helm, will it be competetive next year? Hmm.
So, why aren't there any Honda Accords in NASCAR? FWD sedan, built in America, never fitted with a v-8... |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 08:10 am: |
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NASCAR Winston Cup engine builders would disagree. They get 750BHP at the crank out of a 360 CI watercooled V8. Translating that power output (just over 2HP/CI) to 74 CI V2 gives 154 BHP at the crank or approximately 131 RWHP. Superbikes are putting down more than 160 RWHP. Care to rethink your theory now that you know the facts?
Wouldnt this fact alone make you wonder why, one of the largest MC companies in the world would develope a sport bike with push rods and air cooling, heck even there newest engine follows the pack with a 60 deg v twin/water cooling and is considered the most powerfull engine ever produced by HD, maybe what you really want is a vrod sport bike(some have been saying this all along, while others dont feel it needs to be avaliable, this is where i question a 1350 cc fire bolt, as opposed to a 115HP Buell, Vrod powered)
Funny how that "line" continually changes in AMA Pro Racing, continually shifting to the advantage of their Japanese Benefactors
But some times the line changes due to advancments made, this also needs to be considered, it almost seems like you want to reward buell for using and old design, yet other companies invest tons of cash to move forward, yet you insist that as long as a bike is being produced it should be allowed to compete, Royal enfields are still being made, and they are a new bike but should they be allowed to compete, i dont belive so, but that is of course an opinion
Like I've said. If they want to loyally support only their Japanese benefactors, they need to rename the racing organization to something OTHER than what it is. Call it "Japanese Marketing Pro Racing", or "AMA Pro Japanese Racing", or "Pacific Rim Pro Racing".
Just so i know where was HD in the late 70's or early 80's, did they help the AMA, or how about now, one of the largest MC in the world, how do they help the AMA, now of course i have no doubt that there is no need for HD to race a softtail to help get there name out, but if they want to compete at the AMA level maybe they need to step up and really compete, i realize that they are being kept out of the SS races, but money talks, and i would be willing to bet if HD steped up to the plate that the AMA would let them in, but again this may be far from the truth, but i belive that in HD said it was going to help cover the AMA costs for a year or pay for Air fence for a bunch of AMA tracks, i would be willing to bet that Buell would be racing by next year
I am opposed to allowing the liter bike IL4's the same level of performance modifications and/or minimum weight restrictions that the twins are allowed. Capice?
I thought that they had allready done that? i thought the rules were different allready, but please correct me if i am wrong
thanks
Roger |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 04:07 pm: |
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If you think Harley doesn't have the resources for a full blown race effort, I'd have to say you're dead wrong. It just wouldn't be practical for them to do so.
Ducati's 4-cyl is going to be raced in MotoGP not Superbike. Any guess as to where they're going with it in the future is pure speculation.
One of the largest MC manufacturers in the world didn't develop a sport bike with push rods and air cooling...it was originally designed...and still is...by one of the smallest. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 04:13 pm: |
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Ben,
Let me considerately remind you of your original statement...
"A 1200cc pushrod twin at 10,000 rpm would damn near be an overdog in SUPERBIKE, much less supersport."
AMA Pro Racing has for the 2003 racing season allowed the 750cc superbikes to increase displacement to 800cc's. They did this supposedly to help maintain parity between the liter twins and the 750cc (now 800cc) quads. The 750cc/800cc 4-cyl superbikes are governed by the exact same tech rules as the liter twins. They can both be modified to the same extent in the quest for more HP. Though untested as yet, the rules change could be fair, but given that a 4-cylinder 750cc superbike has won the AMA SBK championship for seven of the last eight years, I don't quite get it.
If watercooled 1,000cc desmo and DOHC twins having a 33% displacement advantage over 750cc IL4's are not "overdogs" in AMA SBK racing, I fail to see how a pushrod twin that only revs to 10,000 rpm and with only a 20% displacement advantage could ever be so. But maybe you know something that the 750cc SBK engine builders don't.
"Nope. I'd think that a motorcycle engine could be made to make more power than the NASCAR engines, as a typical superbike race is shorter, and isn't run at WOT for 90% of the race."
Right. And through the creative application of gene splicing pigs may one day fly. 
"So, when the AMA originally modified the superbike rules to allow for 1000cc twins, they did it 'cause Soichi told them too? Hmm."
Hell no they didn't. Was the same crew that is now controlling AMA Pro Racing also in charge at that time? Obviously a group of men who were more interested in fair racing between different types of bikes than they were in lining their own pockets.
"In addition, your negative attitude towards the AMA & the support of the Japanese manufacturers is saddening."
I do not have a negative attitude towards the AMA. I question the integrity of AMA Pro Racing, a stand alone entirely for-profit venture that is wholly separate and distinct from the American Motorcyclist Association.
"They haven't loyally supported the Japanese manufacturers, they've loyally supported the organizations that (1) sell the most sportbikes in the US and (2) provide the funding & support for the racing series."
Honest and fair consideration is fine. Bias and favoritism are not. AMA racing was not born from the contributions of the Japanese factories. It was active and thriving LONG before any Japanese motorcycle won a road race in America; it would continue to be active and thriving should the Japanese factories choose not to sponsor any series. Other interested entities would jump at the chance to sponsor. Do you know who sponsors the premier SBK class and the overall AMA Pro Racing series? Chevy Trucks. There are plenty of other sponsors, just none that are prepared to offer payola.
"They are awarding loyalty with loyalty, which as a basic premise is an good way to run business relationships."
There is a big difference between loyalty and favoritism and bias. Within the bounds of integrity and honest yes, loyalty is fine. Stepping outside those bounds however, as AMA Pro Racing management have, is akin to the mutual back scratching arrangement enjoyed by Enron and Arthur Andersen. It is dishonest, disingenuous, and it taints the entire arena within which it is played out.
"H-D's recent superbike effort (50 polish streetbikes?) of several seasons of mediocre performance surely would have affected a decision of where to put Buell."
That makes zero sense. You think that because of HD's lack of success in SBK, that Buells should only be allowed into a series where they will also have serious trouble competing?  How does that silly argument apply to excluding Ducati from SS? Your lack of reason and logic on this matter is what is "saddening."
"The AMA has NO REASON to beleive that HD lacks the resources to develop a motorcycle that would be competetive within ANY of the existing class structures. In addition, they HAVE ALREADY given them special treatment by allowing them to run superbike-spec bikes in superstock."
So what you are saying is that superbike and Supersport should become a "spec" racing series where a specific engine configuration is mandated? Because that is exactly what the rules if modified as proposed for 2004 will do. The HD swpecial homologation issue took place YEARS ago. I do not agree with changing the rules to benefit anyone, but if they are going to be altered for the benefit of one factory, I'd much rather see it be an AMERICAN factory. You?
"Ducati sees the writing on the wall. The FIM is in their backyard, yet superbike rules are getting rewritten for 1000cc fours."
I'm not familiar with the FIM rules. I assume that they have in place, as AMAPR does for 2003, technical limitations on the performance enhancements allowed in the four cylinder bikes. Do you see the difference between that and what AMAPR is proposing for 2004?
WHAT A TRULY AMAZING COINCIDENCE that Ducati has developed a v-four??!!
That is for the all out no holds barred Moto GP series. But guess what, even moto GP recognizes the disparity between different engines. They allow bikes with fewer cylinders a significantly ower minimum weight restriction. AMAPR wants to give all 1000cc bikes, no matter the number of cylinders, the same exact restrictions. Make sense to you?
"Ducati wants to be known as a racing company...
Newsflash! Ducati IS a racing company. Everyone familiar with motorcycle racing knows that Ducati is a racing company.
"...there will be a v-4 streetbike soon that makes GSXR1000's look slow & ugly."
I doubt it. That is akin to implying that the latest Ferrari F1 engine will appear in a production car. Moto GP is not a streetbike based class.
"Or, alternately, they will whine that their existing configuration needs to be allowed unlimited displacement so as to compete against the unfair Japanese juggernaut."
Nope, not in Moto GP. It is not a streetbike based class. It is 100% high dollar no holds barred factory racing at its best.
"Designing & building a competetive engine is not something that takes years of intensive research, unless you're trying something really new."
Spoken like a true layman. If you don't try something new in Moto GP, you are likely running something close to last year's losing engine. Does comparing Moto GP to a streetbike class make sense?
"Britten did it WITHOUT H-D's financial resources; Proton has developed a V-5 engine in less than a year."
Would you please remind me? What notable races have either of them won?
"With KR at the helm, will it be competetive next year?"
I HOPE so. But unfortunately, if the Proton 500cc 2-stroke effort is any indication, the answer is no.
"So, why aren't there any Honda Accords in NASCAR? FWD sedan, built in America, never fitted with a v-8..."
I don't know. Is Honda interested in entering the NASCAR arena? Admittedly, I perceive NASCAR as a spec racing series. But it is an American racing series featuring American based racing machines. NASCAR does not hold itself up as an open street car based racing series. It unashamedly embraces what it is without trying to put on aires otherwise. Do you know for what the "A" in NASCAR stands? Like I said, if AMAPR wants to carry on SBK and SS as spec racing series aimed at showcasing Japanese products, they need to change their name. Otherwise they are simply being disingenuous.
Go FUSA!!!...
Go away AMA Pro Racing. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 04:41 pm: |
|
Roger,
No motorcycle with the massive VRod engine could ever be considered a "Sport Bike". And like Rick so astutely points out. In the modern era, it was Buell, not HD, who put the cruiser engine into a sport bike.
"But some times the line changes due to advancments made.
If for parity, okay. But in this case, AMAPR is simply proposing to hand the SBK series to the Japanese 4-cylinder liter bikes. That is not the spirit of the series nor the stated intent of AMAPR...
Quote:In (the 2003 AMA Pro Racing Rulebook), you'll find rules designed to create a level playing field for all com-
petitors, so that the best and brightest can continue to rise to the top, as they
have for more than three- quarters of a century.
Sincerely,
Merrill Vanderslice Director of Competition,
queen of all doubletalkers (my hero, Bill Clinton, is the all-time king)
AMA Pro Racing
This also needs to be considered, it almost seems like you want to reward Buell for using and old design
I don't want to reward diddly. The basic technology withing the Buell engine is no older than that comprising the Japanese engines. The Buell engine uses displacement where the Japanese use rpm, more valves, and more cylinders.
yet other companies invest tons of cash to move forward,
The Buell XB9 engine is one of the most advanced aircooled motorcycle engines ever made. It cost a substantial investment to design, test, and manufacture. It did not fall of a tractor into a motorcycle with 92BHP and a 7,500 rpm rev limit. Harley was racing four valve OHC engines back in the twenties. Talk about old technology.
yet you insist that as long as a bike is being produced it should be allowed to compete,
As long as it can be competitive, YES.
"Royal enfields are still being made, and they are a new bike but should they be allowed to compete, i dont belive so, but that is of course an opinion"
Would they be competitive in AMA SS? Answer... No. They could never even make the grid. How silly to suggest such a thing. Why not let all bikes that can make the grid, like say... a Ducati 748, compete in the race? Answer... AMAPR's loyal "benefactors" no likee.
Any other questions? |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 04:41 pm: |
|
Roger,
If you are going to insert quotations into your post, would you please do something to help distinguish them from your own original content?
Two options that I use...
\blue{"Insert quoted text here."}
and
\quote{Insert quoted text here.}
You could also use...
boldface type \b{Insert quoted text here.}
or italic type \i{Insert quoted text here.}
Your efforts will be much appreciated. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 04:54 pm: |
|
And with a tangent to the tangents, (two more tangents and we will be full circle), Toyota actually will be fielding a nascar vehicle... I think in 2007.
They are working on a V8 engine now... they had to look all over the world for a Toyota facility that could still cast a steel engine block (as required by NASCAR), all they did was aluminum. They finally found a Toyota facility in Tokyo as I recall.
All these arguments are getting way too complicated. I tried to bring up the 2 stroke versus 4 stroke example to simplify the point that different engine technologies should have different displacement limits to have equitable racing, and that this is not favoritism, but rather common sense. The fact that nobody in the US markets a two stroke litre class bike has nothing to do with it.. it is ALREADY DECLARED ILLEGAL TO RACE in all the classes discussed.
If it is just a matter of "we just race what sells", then why pre-emptively eliminate 2 strokes? The answer is obvious, because a 2 stroke makes nearly twice the power of a 4 stroke, and it would be stupid to let them race each other with the same displacement limit.
So why do people think it is such a jump to give the twins a displacement advantage to compensate for the top RPM limitations incurred by two larger pistons versus four smaller pistons? Where is the confusion?
All this race what sells stuff is a great argument for letting 1000cc 4's into popular races, but is a stupid argument for keeping the twins at the 1000cc limit.
You would be saying:
"750cc fours and 1000cc twins race competitively now. 1000cc fours are now popular. Therefore 1000cc fours and 1000cc twins are now competitive."
You can say it. But it's stupid.
(IMHO ) |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 05:18 pm: |
|
Quote:Superstock bikes are significantly... FASTER... than supersport bikes. Your logic is correct. You have the class performance levels confused. So I guess what you are really saying is that the Buells and Ducati 748/749's should be allowed in Supersport. I agree.
I am truly wasting my time if you don't bother reading what I write Blake.
Superstock faster than Supersport? Really? Depends on the track:
| Daytona (03/02) | Supersport | Buell Pro Thunder | Superstock | | RACE TIME: | 34:26.89 min. | 21:24.41 min. | 28:44.63 min. | | WINNER'S AVG. SPEED: | 111.611 mph | 109.759 mph | 111.467 mph | | WINNER'S AVG. LAP TIME: | 01:54.8 | 01:56.8 | 01:55.0 | | SECOND PLACE AVG. SPEED: | 111.589 mph | 108.796 mph | 111.466 mph | | SECOND PLACE AVG. LAP TIME: | 01:54.8 | 01:57.8 | 01:55.0 | | | | | | | | | | | | Pikes Peak (05/02) | Supersport | Buell Pro Thunder | Superstock | | | | | | RACE TIME: | 27:51.128 min. | 28:15.85 min. | 27:45.17 min. | | WINNER'S AVG. SPEED: | 82.152 mph | 80.954 mph | 82.446 mph | | WINNER'S AVG. LAP TIME: | 00:57.6 | 00:58.5 | 00:57.4 | | SECOND PLACE AVG. SPEED: | 82.006 mph | 80.826 mph | 82.276 mph | | SECOND PLACE AVG. LAP TIME: | 00:57.7 | 00:58.6 | 00:57.5 | | | | | | | | Road America (06/02) | Supersport | Buell Pro Thunder | Superstock | | | | | | RACE TIME: | 22:49.162 min. | 23:28.72 min. | 22:45.66 min. | | WINNER'S AVG. SPEED: | 105.174 mph | 102.22 mph | 105.444 mph | | WINNER'S AVG. LAP TIME: | 02:16.9 | 02:20.9 | 02:16.6 | | SECOND PLACE AVG. SPEED: | 105.173 mph | 102.175 mph | 105.433 mph | | SECOND PLACE AVG. LAP TIME: | 02:16.9 | 02:20.9 | 02:16.6 | | | | | | | | Brainerd (06/02) | Supersport | Buell Pro Thunder | Superstock | | | | | | RACE TIME: | 22:23.11 min. | 22:40.521 min. | 22:11.68 min. | | WINNER'S AVG. SPEED: | 104.533 mph | 103.196 mph | 105.431 mph | | WINNER'S AVG. LAP TIME: | 01:43.3 | 01:44.7 | 01:42.4 | | SECOND PLACE AVG. SPEED: | 104.515 mph | 102.39 mph | 104.975 mph | | SECOND PLACE AVG. LAP TIME: | 01:43.3 | 01:45.5 | 01:42.9 | | | | | | | | Laguna Seca (7-11-14) | Supersport | Buell Pro Thunder | Superstock | | | | | | RACE TIME: | 25:47.981 min. | 26:27.38 min. | 25:48.781 min. | | WINNER'S AVG. SPEED: | 88.48 mph | 86.284 mph | 88.434 mph | | WINNER'S AVG. LAP TIME: | 01:31.1 | 01:33.4 | 01:31.1 | | SECOND PLACE AVG. SPEED: | 87.971 mph | 86.245 mph | 88.358 mph | | SECOND PLACE AVG. LAP TIME: | 01:31.6 | 01:33.4 | 01:31.2 |
Tommy Hayden, on his ZX6RR, finished 6th at Daytona, 7th at Road America and 1st at Laguna Seca, in the 750 Superstock class.
Tony Meiring, a rookie, also on his ZX6RR, finished 4th at the Pikes Peak in the 750 Superstock class.
To deny the fact that the talent and equipment level in Supersport is clearly superior to Superstock is silly. The results last year prove it.
If Buell wants to race with the big boys, let them get competitive in Superstock first, then they can ask to be let into Supersport.
Finally, FUSA is just as guilty as the AMA, FIM, WSBK and every other major racing sanctioning body. They all have to setup rules that reflect the marketplace, which is currently dominated by 1000cc and 600cc inline 4 Japanese Sportbikes. Until somebody comes up with something faster and sells thousands of street versions, the situation will not change. |
Cjmblast
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 06:01 pm: |
|
Wow, I learned something from this thread !!!
I can "put a quote in blue print"
and I can make my print bold
or I can italize my print
Quote:or I can just do a quote like this
I wondered how others did it in their posts, but didn't want to ask !!
Now I'm guessing I can change colors to say white or red or how about purple ?? Woo Hoo
Now if I could just figure out how to make my print itty bitty, like I've seen on other posts I'd be ecstatic !!
CJM  |
|
AMA Pro Racing 
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