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Jwnsc
| | Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2008 - 09:39 pm: | 
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Gee, I'm glad I held off installing the Koyos. If the two dozen or so OEM bearing failures I've read about here didn't motivate me to install aftermarket bearings, I'm not ready to dump my spare Koyos and run out and get SKFs because of one failure. Besides, if the bearing failures are caused by the belt drive or wheel design, the SKFs may not fare any better.
According to Buell, this is a non-issue because the number of wheel bearing failures are not out-of-line with industry standards. (This may be because the actual number of failures is under reported due to owners did not go through the warranty procedure or changed out the OEM bearings before they could fail.)
We are missing two important numbers -
1) the total number of Ulys sold since 2005
2) the number of Uly warranty repairs for bad wheel bearings
Anybody have access to this information or
a methodology that offers a reasonable SWAG? |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2008 - 08:03 am: |
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Maximum: http://www.applied.com/apps/commerce/catalog/catal og.do?e=10&s=6366801 |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2008 - 08:55 am: |
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According to Buell, this is a non-issue because the number of wheel bearing failures are not out-of-line with industry standards.
Something is seriously wrong if this is the perception.
There aren't badweb threads on Firebolt wheel bearing failures, or Lightning wheel bearing failures. Only the Uly seems to eat wheel bearings. The number of Uly wheel bearing failures is out-of-line with Buells own experience.
I have wondered what would be considered an acceptable number of wheel bearing failures. I've seen a post from someone in the ATV industry indicating they start worrying when they see failures on 1% of their vehicles. My SWAG is at least 10% of Uly owners on Badweb have had bearing problems.
Here is my take. The industry standard for people who really care about quality is 3.4 defects per million opportunities. Now there are a lot of opportunities for defects on something as complex as a Uly, so even if you got to that level of quality, there would still be problems. But you would almost never see the same thing fail twice. When you have a thread with a dozen people posting about wheel bearing failures, for a bike that has roughly 10,000 owners, there is a big problem. |
Court
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2008 - 12:22 pm: |
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>>>According to Buell
Wow. Powerful statement. Someone at BUELL or someone at Harley-Davidson Customer Service told you that?
I really have a tough time imaging that coming from anyone at Buell.
Recall who said it? |
Court
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2008 - 12:25 pm: |
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quote:Something is seriously wrong if this is the perception.
One of the problems of the internet and one of the reasons I'll no longer engage in a debate online, is that anyone (even behind a "nome de byte" like Bikerdude7) says something it gets perceived, by the same public who thrives on the Spears pregnancy, as fact.
Careful what words and deeds you ascribe to Buell.
Be wise.
(Message edited by court on June 20, 2008) |
Jwnsc
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2008 - 02:43 pm: |
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Someone at BUELL or someone at Harley-Davidson Customer Service told you that?
C'mon guys, I know this is a long thread, but let's try to keep up. Yes, Philip of Buell Customer Service on Wed., April 09, 2008 at 1656 hours. I had asked him to research the number of Uly wheel bearing failures with Buell Corporate. I was even given a reference number in case I need to refer back to my call. We even discussed that the number of bearing failures Buell has recorded might be low because so many owners did not go through the warranty procedure. My conversation with Philip is here:
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/142 838/355192.html |
Hughlysses
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2008 - 05:05 pm: |
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I was wondering if any of these manufacturer's bearings are going to be better than the others.
Here's the comparable ratings:
Manufacturer Dynamic Load Static Load
NTN (OEM).....2967 lb...........1866 lb
SKF.....................3102 lb...........1866 lb
Koyo....................2967 lb...........1855 lb
The SKF's good for about 150 lbs more dynamic load rating; maybe that's enough to be worth while.
I also spent some time looking to see if there is a tapered roller bearing that'll fit in the available space. Koyo makes a 32006JR tapered roller bearing that is 55mm OD and 30mm ID with a 13mm wide shoulder (same as the original ball bearings) BUT they're unsealed and the inner race is 17mm wide. The width could easily be accommodated by machining 4mm off the "boss" on the left side of the swing arm- the axle provides the other shoulder which is no problem. The big problem is how to provide seals since there's no room for separate seals in the wheel. Just for comparison, the dynamic load rating for this bearings is 10,978 lbs (!!!). Maybe with a little more research we can find a sealed tapered roller bearing that'll fit the bill? |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2008 - 09:17 pm: |
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I know the SKF and Koyo bearings use a different grease. I've been researching greases to see if I can figure out the properties. It appears as though the SKF grease may be more resistant to being washed out, but I can't tell for sure, as it's just listed as "Polyurea base" and there are multiple greases that fit that classification.
I don't know what grease the NTN bearing uses.
BTW, the load ratings you published are for a life of one million revolutions. That translates into about 1500 miles. I don't know how the life scales with load. |
Hughlysses
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2008 - 09:45 pm: |
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Jim- I found this equation for determining ball bearing life given the actual load compared to the rated load:
The catalog-listed dynamic load ratings are dependent upon both the equivalent dynamic load and the required bearing life. The ISO equation for the basic rating life is:
Where L = basic rated life (millions of revolutions)
C = basic dynamic load rating
P = equivalent dynamic bearing load
m = exponent in the life equation,
m = 3 for ball bearings
m = 3.3 for other bearings.
If my brain isn't completely fried tonight (and it may be- it's been a rough week): Assume the "equivalent dynamic bearing load" is something like 500 lbs (remember, that's only half the load on the wheel) which is assuming somehow 1000 lbs of load is getting transmitted through the wheel, which I'd think is pretty conservative. That means the L sub 10 would be (3000/500) to the third power which is 216, or 216 million revolutions or 314,000 miles. Even if each bearing is somehow carrying 1000 lbs (2000 lbs total load on the back wheel, that gives a life of (3000/1000) to the third power which would be 27 million revolutions or 40,500 miles. I guess that's not that far from what we're actually seeing, but how is that much load getting applied to the wheel?
(Message edited by Hughlysses on June 21, 2008) |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Sunday, June 22, 2008 - 09:21 am: |
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but how is that much load getting applied to the wheel?
What's the load on the bearings when you hit a pothole? |
Hughlysses
| | Posted on Sunday, June 22, 2008 - 05:34 pm: |
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Jim- it may be in that range, but that wouldn't explain why Uly wheel bearings aren't holding up the same as other XB wheel bearings. IIRC those ratings are continuous loading. No idea what impact loads the bearings can withstand. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 01:45 am: |
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One of the problems of the internet and one of the reasons I'll no longer engage in a debate online, is that anyone (even behind a "nome de byte" like Bikerdude7) says something it gets perceived, by the same public who thrives on the Spears pregnancy, as fact.
Careful what words and deeds you ascribe to Buell.
Be wise.
That's some of the wisest advice I've read here in a long time and it embodies the single most frustrating aspect of trying to maintain the integrity of this place.
Too many folks like to post as fact information that in reality is completely unreliable and inaccurate. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 01:47 am: |
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Bearing load ratings must consider typical working load AND peak shock loading, not just peak loading alone. It is a much more complicated analysis that the above equation might lead one to believe. |
Hughlysses
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 06:10 am: |
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Blake- I was just trying to get a ballpark estimate of the bearing life for the Uly rear wheel bearings given the typical working loads. There's no reason to think shock loadings for the Uly wheel bearings are any worse than any other XB's- unless all the riders with failed bearings are doing serious off-roading, and I don't think that's true. A few people have suggested the Uly wheel bearings are undersized for the application. The above simplified analysis seems to disprove that.
The one potential source of higher than normal XB loads that's been identified is the belt drive. The theory is that the Uly's higher ride height results in the belt being tighter than other XB's when the suspension is fully extended. Even if this is true though, this load would be more of a typical load rather than a shock load.
I still tend to think the problem's going to turn out to be a QC problem with the rear wheel or spacer resulting in the bearings being pre-loaded. Hopefully someone will figure this out in the near future and put this issue to bed. |
Jwnsc
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 08:21 am: |
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Too many folks like to post as fact information that in reality is completely unreliable and inaccurate.
And yet when someone posts that Buell has adopted the same policy with respect to the
wheel bearing issue, and based on warranty repair reports (rather than this forum thread),
the bearing failure rate is not out of line with industry standards, then either something must be
wrong with Buell
Something is seriously wrong if this is the perception
or the poster is unreliable
...Careful what words and deeds you ascribe to Buell.
So it's OK for us to be skeptical of information on the forum, but not Buell?
Be wise.
I'd add attentive and un-hypocritical. |
Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 09:24 am: |
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I rest my case. |
Jwnsc
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 12:30 pm: |
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Of course the explanation I got from CS is over 2 1/2 months old, now.
Who knows, the number of bearing warranty repairs may have since
reached some magic number to trigger, some yet undisclosed action
on Buell's part, in addition to using NTN Canadian bearings.
I still say the best opportunity to get some answers is during the
Buell Homecoming. Is there not one Uly owner who plans on attending,
who is interested in addressing this issue with the Buell corporate officers
or engineers in attendance? Would there be a Uly Tech Seminar moderated
by company engineers where these kind of questions can be asked? |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 01:37 pm: |
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Jim, that's a great idea. Why don't you PM a couple people from the homecoming thread? |
Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 02:07 pm: |
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There are two seminars planned (you'll recall I posted here several months ago asking folks to submit suggestions) but neither is on the Uly.
I'd suggest that the best way to address these is by writing to customer service. You;d be surprised how few folks actually create any meaningful record of their concerns. That would be a good way.
Just a thought. . . . |
Jwnsc
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 02:30 pm: |
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Why don't you PM a couple people from the homecoming thread?
I'll give it a shot.
You;d be surprised how few folks actually create any meaningful record of their concerns.
And that's is probably a big factor in Buell's silence so far.
For all the noise generated on this forum about bad bearings,how many actual warranty claims have been filed?
Self-reliance is a great American virtue, but doesn't play well with warranty procedures. As for me, I already
have a CS reference number documenting my concerns, but I don't have the "standing" that a Uly owner has who has been inconvenienced or out money due to a bearing failure. Yes, I guess the CS route is one way to go, but I think it'd be lot quicker to just ask Erik, the chief tech officer, a few questions face to face. |
Hughlysses
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 03:27 pm: |
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Court- thanks for the suggestion. I didn't consider replacing my bearings with aftermarket units a big deal. The fact that this doesn't seem to cure the problem does cause me concern. A letter to Buell CS would be easy enough to do. |
Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 04:38 pm: |
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>>>but I think it'd be lot quicker to just ask Erik, the chief tech officer, a few questions face to face.
A lot quicker is right. There will be 600+ folks around so just be mindful that the conversation will be as meaningful as any 17 second "whadya think about? . . . . "
Inevitably someone will, following an event, post something like "I got the word from a guy at the factory" and tout it as a defacto "okay, we'll change the design" commitment.
If you corner an engineer with no data, on a cold topic, just be aware of the circumstances and that it's pretty much a social conversation not an action plan. |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 11:53 am: |
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Self-reliance is a great American virtue, but doesn't play well with warranty procedures.
Just as a side note, my bike isn't under warranty any longer. On one hand that means my bearings are no longer Buell's problem. On the other, I suspect they would still like to know about these issues, particularly since I think that portion of the bike is still the same as it was on the 06 models. I don't know if there is a channel for getting this info back to them.
Anyone here skilled in failure analysis? I still have the inner race from my failed bearing. I'd be curious to know what they can tell from examining it. |
Hughlysses
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 07:12 pm: |
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Jim- maybe your bearing supplier could help out? Surely they have access to someone that could help- Koyo sales tech? |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 03:06 pm: |
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She probably could. The woman who staffs the counter at the local applied office is sharp. |
Jwnsc
| | Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2008 - 06:01 pm: |
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Great to hear that the Uly wheel bearing failures were brought up at a Homecoming tech seminar and Buell is working on it. Thanks Crusty! |
Adrian_8
| | Posted on Friday, August 01, 2008 - 03:02 pm: |
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Well I thought I might as well whine some...I just installed my second set of rear wheel bearings...at 40,230.. The first set went at 23K. This set came apart on the sprocket side. I could hear it clicking as I left the driveway.. They are really quite easy to change but someone getting ready for a long trip with over 20K on their bearings...should be fore warned... |
Skyclad
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - 03:56 pm: |
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Time to bring this out again...
We have at least one other Uly rider out there with SKFs; I wonder if his bearings are holding up?
I may have been the one mentioned as having SFK bearings. As far as how well they are holding up...8000+ miles on the SFK's and, once again, I will be replacing the rear bearings.
The first sign I had of a problem was on the way home from WV a couple of weeks ago. Heard that dreaded scrunching sound. Pulled the bearing apart and cleaned it out. There was certainly stuff in there. Not surprising, considering the riding I did that weekend in WV. Lots of fire roads and worse.
Last night, I heard the bearings talking to me again. I checked them out this morning to find the seal had worked loose. Instead of continuing to fight with this set, I am going to be replacing them Friday.
Remember, I had two sets of OEM bearings fail in the first 6600 miles. I now have ~15K on my 08, and will be replacing the SFK bearings. The SFK's have absolutely had the most abuse thrown at them, as I more and more often find myself in places that Eric probably did not intend the Ulysses to be taken.
I am still thinking the seals have been the main issue. Some sort of extra protection for the bearings may be a big part of the solution. I am also going to be talking with the sales folks at Applied Tech to see if they have anything better equipped to handle dirty service applications. I will post up with any new info I get. |
Adamd
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - 04:01 pm: |
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Has anyone repacked with waterproof grease? |
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