| Author | Message | ||
     Spike |
I had the same thought while helping a friend put new race plastics on his SP2 RC51. While the motor itself is very purposeful, when combined with all the necessary "stuff" that gets tucked under the fairing it gets extremely busy. Also, there simply isn't room to fit a conventional front-mount radiator on the bike without it contacting the front wheel or the exhaust. Even if the exhaust header was flattened/re-routed/removed to allow room for a radiator, the bike couldn't have much suspension movement without the front wheel hitting the radiator under full compression. The only way for Honda to utilize a conventional radiator on that bike would be to move the engine rearward in the frame which would certainly affect weight distribution. Even if the engine was shifted rearward, the length would have to be made up somewhere else. Since the bike is already compact, either the wheelbase would need to be extended or a shorter swingarm would need to be utilized. | ||
| Blake |
Another major benefit of the Buell cooling system implementation is that much of the hot air exiting the heat exchangers is ducted through to exit the rear of the bike where it won't bother the rider. The RC51, the other world class V-Twin with laterally mounted heat exchangers is notorious for the heat it blasts around the rider. Buell has solved that issue. If you don't like the look of the Buell 1125R's cooling air intake nacelles, then wait for the fully faired version that may or may not materialize. It's funny how someone could imagine that there is any savings to manufacturing the most advanced cast and welded frame in the industry, just because it shares some basic traits with prior Buell XB frames. Entirely new frame, entirely newly engineered/analyzed from start to finish, entirely tested, retested, and verified, entirely new tooling, entirely new manufacturer. When arrogance and ignorance meet, they can lead to some incredibly foolish/inaccurate statements. (Message edited by blake on January 07, 2008) | ||
| Jb2 |
My VFR had radiators on the sides. They have for years. I like the 1125R. I can't believe there's a whole thread dedicated to ONE man's dislike of the motorcycles looks. Rocket, I think everyone gets the fact you don't like the 1125R. What have you built that surpasses it in looks or handling? A TVR version of a Boss Hog? You are a colorful character that for the most part I really like. Having said that, if I ever need a dead horse pounded into glue you'd be my first call. JB2 | ||
| Molly_hatchet |
now that some of you have a real in the flesh and metal 1125R isnt it about you started tearin them apart and doing some mods...i mean cmon its been like a couple of weeks for some of you...id really like to see whats going to happen to the beast with some good old fashioned american ingenuity. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
I love this thread, it's like watching a long complicated feature film. (I wonder how it ends) I'd just like to point out to Dbird29 that I think you've been extremely lucky not to have been barred from Badweb, If Rocket had stooped to the level of personal abuse that you're throwing out, he'd have been shut down. It's not big & it's not clever. The only person it makes look like a tosser is yourself. So do us all (& yourself) a favour & pack it in please. | ||
| Reepicheep |
The longer wheelbase may have been as simple as a straightforward way to deliver more power, and more stability at speed. I am guessing the XB12 is already limited by wheelbase in terms of it's acceleration in at least the first two gears. Pin the throttle, the bike simply loops, end of acceleration. Also, the top speed of the XB12 is what, 140 or so? The 1125R has another 30-40 HP, so adding two inches to the wheelbase could dramatically have helped the 0-60 times. It also could have added stability (without a steering damper) at 150+ mph. I love my 9sx short wheelbase, it makes the bike a hoot to ride everywhere that is street legal, and feels perfectly balanced for my 76 HP motor. The 1125 felt well balanced as well, at speeds my 9sx would not hit unless I dropped it out of an airplane. I think they just picked the right wheelbase for the intentions of the platform. | ||
| Molly_hatchet |
 ugly, or not.... | ||
| Molly_hatchet |
 ugly, or not... | ||
| Court |
>>>Isn't that up to the reader? No. The reader, presented with facts, is free to form an opinion. Many of the things presented here (no, I am not going to waste my time) are simply ludicrous. If this thread were in a library it would be in the fiction section. The XB frame, made in Italy, has little, other than a general resemblance, in common with the Made in the USA 1125R frame. Enjoy . . . | ||
| Rocketman |
Blake, I understand that the frame is entirely new, but am I not correct in saying when all the coordinates are punched into the computer it's just a few more computers and a few more machines that make the components that make up the entire frame? I'm not certain whether I could call that entirely new in the true sense of the word. The MV Brutale uses essentially the same frame as the F4, but it had to be modified to accept the taller than 750 engines. Such modification would have MV doing exactly as you say of Buell with the 1125 frame, except for changing manufacturer. Would you consider the Brutale frame entirely new when compared to the F4, and if so, at what point of modification does entirely occur? I've spoken about a friend of mine often on BadWeB who has owned many new bikes since 2001. Three of them were (RC51's) SP1, SP2 and SP 2/3. Steve rates the SP's as his favourites, and I've never heard him once complain of any rider heat problems. Nor have I heard this mentioned anywhere else. Is this something to do with riding long distance across the plains and deserts of the US in summer, or is it just your own ignorance? Speaking of which. I've done my damnedest since you asked me the other week, to keep a civilised tongue in my head. That despite the crap some seem to throw at me, regardless. You included. Where do you get off calling me arrogant, ignorant, and a troll? Accuse me of petty indignation then go on to say my statements are incredibly foolish? Isn't this behaviour arrogant and confrontational? Shouldn't you, above all else, be leading by example? Or is it as some have pointed out on Sacborg, you are never wrong? What was it you said to me in the other thread? Look to thyne own self. Not forgetting your threat, "that is not a request." Thanks. There are a few around here who are not at all offended by my posts. I imagine they can read them with open eyes. That they don't email you and say how wonderful my posts are doesn't concern me. But when you start dancing to the tune of those emailing you asking for my head, it concerns me that you dance for them. Wanna debate bikes or not? Rocket | ||
| Molly_hatchet |
when a person is passionate about a brand especially one that has taken some severe beatings in the press and otherwise it tends to make them a bit defensive and confrontational...these people are insane when it comes to their buells and their erik and company...expect blind rage and pretty much anything short of hunting you down and beating you into a puddle when u question their bikes in any way shape or form...u might as well call their moms ugly ho's...u might be better off doing so.. the beating may not be as severe...these guys feel more a part of the company that builds their bikes than any other on the planet..so ya expect some lashing out...carry on  . | ||
| Hexangler |
My mom's a virgin. Hex | ||
| Ceejay |
court this is the internet, it is only up to the person to read it and draw thier own conclusions. When I read post from you, anon, or rocket, it is up to me to decide what I believe as fact or fiction and thus decide what I would like to believe or not believe. Further, this is a discussion or debate on many subjects for which not too many have shown hard proof to back up any statements. While many on here believe Rocket to be a horses ass he has done much by way of controlling the threads and the arguments, whether it be good or bad, factual or not, that is up to me to decide. The small blurbs by some has given me the reason to question many things that are put up here and that I had previously regarded as facts, but like I said, hey that's the internet. | ||
| Rocketman |
The XB frame, made in Italy, has little, other than a general resemblance, in common with the Made in the USA 1125R frame. You expect anyone to believe that? Concord stopped flying because media could be sent around the world electronically faster than any businessman on a supersonic plane? What did Buell do? Leave all the XB data on an 80GB flash card in Italy? To think Buell had the best cornering bike of all time, and they just discarded all the data from the XB design, yet remarkably Buell at least kept the chassis appearance of the XB intact for the 1125. Now who's being ludicrous. The only reason Verlicchi aren't building 1125 frames in Italy is because Alcoa can build them more cost effectively in the US. The switch of manufacturer has little if anything to do with a new design. Especially when one considers the relationship between both companies. Please, do tell me I'm wrong. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
Rocket, I think everyone gets the fact you don't like the 1125R. What have you built that surpasses it in looks or handling? A TVR version of a Boss Hog? Jim, I like you too  I would like to point out I don't like the looks of the 1125. I've yet to form an opinion itself on the bike. That will please many, lol. One other thing. The V8 bike is not my version of a Boss Hog. It's a full on Streetfighter. Not a cruiser. Rocket | ||
| Gregtonn |
Sean, You're marrying the attributes praised upon the XB platform. Not the 1125. Whether or not it proves to be as good as an XB only time will tell. My point exactly. You point out precisely why the 1125R should use the XB technology as a spring board for the new design. My Granddad, when he was alive, made no mention of his Scott suffering problems from any of the areas you point to as bonuses for Buells design. Nor did my Grandfather make mention of the short comings of the draft horse or the steam engine with regard powering his farm implements. Likewise the past fifteen years or more we don't here of Japanese liquid cooled bikes suffering from their more conventional designs. Did you hear of all of the factory Honda entries into the 2007 Daytona 200 suffering from vapor lock on the same lap? (Vapor lock is the vaporization of fuel in the fuel system due to inadequate cooling.) Would you care to continue? Greg | ||
| Rocketman |
You point out precisely why the 1125R should use the XB technology as a spring board for the new design. I believe I'm saying in Buell doing so, it has created some compromise on design. I haven't doubted for a moment the benefits it should reap in handling and performance. But just a few hours ago, we are told the 1125 chassis only looks like an XB. That has me in disbelief frankly. Even more so as in my eyes there was no reason at all to design the 1125 to look so controversial if it were not from sticking to the XB attributes, whatever they are. Greg, that I mention the Scott was to point out that liquid cooling on motorcycles has been around 100 years, and is still working fine. Buell haven't found a better, or worse for that matter, way to do it. It's just Buells way. It might be a damn fine way. Maybe even the best as time might prove. But it is still a compromise in appearance for the 1125 as far as I'm concerned. Buell must surely have thought, as I said before, that the 1125 styling was not going to be to everyone's liking. I mean that in a not so ordinary sense. So that leads me to two scenarios. Either Buell thought "what the hell, let's roll with it", or "it's a good design given the goals from the XB platform and our Trilogy Design ethos we wanted to incorporate." I don't see how the 1125 could be looked at by anyone involved before going to full production, and they not for a moment thought "I wonder how this quirky looking bike will be received"? There must be some detractors from the style at the design \ build stage if there are detractors within the BadWeB usuals? As for steam powered farm machinery and racing motorcycles vapour locking in one or many races. That has little to do with what we're talking here. Unless of course there's a relevance I've missed? Rocket | ||
| Dbird29 |
Maybe you guys didn't see Blake's request. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/328112.html?1199731150 Pandering is not a factor. Look to thyne own self. Please stop polluting BadWeB with your petty indignation and arrogant confrontation. That is not a request. The rest of us must cease immediately responding to the trolling. Without an audience response, a troll will soon wither and disappear. Let's all make the troll disappear.(and I don't mean just me) | ||
| Rocketman |
Listen up troll. You've had several people tell you how stupid you're making yourself look, yet you still continue. I couldn't care less frankly. Water off a ducks back mate. So just to let you know, the title of this thread is 'Anyone fancy a good argument debate relating to Buell motorcycles?'. It is that, and on the QB, at the advice of Blake. Now if you'll excuse me from addressing your concerns. I've more important pleasures to seek from ramming a Coke bottle up my backside  Rocket | ||
| Rubberdown |
Sorry Dbird. I enjoy Rocket's posts. | ||
| Molly_hatchet |
ive disagreed with rocket more than once...id rather have 25 rockets here than one close minded, illiterate, brown nosing,mindlessly aggressive, pundit. | ||
| Xb984r |
+1 Molly.I wish the custodians would show a little integrity and quit with the double standard when it comes to personal insults. (Message edited by xb984r on January 07, 2008) | ||
| Ceejay |
Reep-could you imagine the discussion(round table or bar) when laying out the 1125? "if we keep that wheelbase with that layout they'll all be looping them pulling out of the harley lot!" or in hindsight, "we don't have a motor that's very exciting so we better make the chassis one that's cool as hell" In hopes of getting back on some track(I'll pick one I guess  ), why's it better to mount the rad unit singly instead of duals on either side? | ||
| Ceejay |
Rocket stated: You expect anyone to believe that? Concord stopped flying because media could be sent around the world electronically faster than any businessman on a supersonic plane? What did Buell do? Leave all the XB data on an 80GB flash card in Italy? To think Buell had the best cornering bike of all time, and they just discarded all the data from the XB design, yet remarkably Buell at least kept the chassis appearance of the XB intact for the 1125. Now who's being ludicrous. That's why I asked? Seems odd that given the bike was a ground up or rider down design, that they would just up and add 2.5" just to get a bit-well maybe a lot more power out of it. | ||
| Hexangler |
I say let's make Rocket a MODERATOR! Or maybe, let's get him his own board and title it: Rocket's Board (could be taken as a pun). I'd read it from time to time. Hex | ||
| Diablobrian |
I for one enjoy reading and considering a dissenting opinion whether it's Sean's or anyone else's. It causes me to weigh my own opinions with a critical eye and see if they are found wanting. The day I fear being challenged on the things I believe is the day I hope that someone "pulls the plug" and puts me out of my misery. By reading a thread entitled "Anyone fancy a good argument debate relating to Buell motorcycles?" and then posting to it you have consented to engaging in a (sometimes spirited) debate of ideas that may take you out of your comfort zone. The fact that these ideas are being presented on a discussion board with little to no real evidence can in fact place the ideas in the realm of fiction, and in fact until you have researched further it is best to reserve judgment on even the most persuasive argument. I would even bet that most people involved will not be swayed one way or the other by anything they read here and it usually devolves into a virtual shouting match between opposing sides of any given issue. | ||
| Ceejay |
That's what books are for!!! | ||
| Blake |
"I say let's make Rocket a MODERATOR! Or maybe, let's get him his own board and title it: Rocket's Board (could be taken as a pun). I'd read it from time to time. Hex" He used to be a custodian here. Truth. The truth is also that Sean is my good friend. That's not to say that he doesn't disappoint me or frustrate me to wit's end sometimes. He's lost his way, but I'm not going to ditch him. He'll come round. I thank my other good friends here for their understanding and patience. Please don't misinterpret my tolerance for Sean's behavior as any kind of affront to you. Sean, "am I not correct in saying when all the coordinates are punched into the computer it's just a few more computers and a few more machines that make the components that make up the entire frame?" No, you are as far from correct as you can possibly be. First, there is no mere "punching coordinates into the computer". What you imagine occurs in the engineering and manufacturing of a complex critical structural component like a new motorcycle frame is pure fiction. If I had to estimate the total number of project man-hours required to design/engineer the Buell 1125R frame and production tooling, I'd put it at around two man-years, that's about 4,000 hours. That could be way low, most initial engineering estimates are. | ||
| Bad_karma |
Though I do not like the looks of the bike, the water cooled motor is just ugly, just like the water cooled I4's. I'm concerned with the loss of an American made motor and facing the fact that Buell will go completely water cooled. I would like to be able to buy another new Buell, but not with water. I accept engineering compromises are a given in the real world. Is lengthening the chassis a trend we are going to see in Buells? I have watched quietly for the last 10 to 15 years as the big bike manufacture evolve to the fundamentals that Eric based our Buells on. Now it appears we are evolving towards the Big manufactures designs. How long before an I4 will appear in Buells? Thanks, Rocket for this thread. It is always good to reevaluate your beliefs. Surprising yourself when you do not return to beliefs you have previously held and reassuring when your beliefs are reaffirmed. Badweb how about single standards for conduct of all. Joe | ||
| Diablobrian |
I'm sure that there were MANY virtual frames designed and lots of Finite Element Analysis done on each with refinements gleaned from each one as they found flaws. After all, Abe is THE MAN when it comes to FEA (literally wrote the textbook). You cannot just change the scale, dimensions, mass, and forces exerted on a chassis without pretty well starting with a clean sheet. What did they keep? the basic concepts, fuel in frame, steering geometry, maybe even the side plate stampings. The castings that really carry the stresses are all new clean sheet designs. Do they look similar? Yes, but that is largely due the fact they are both doing the same jobs and is a testament to the purity of the XB chassis' form. Even with 5+ years of R&D it is still the most elegant solution to the problem that the engineers could design. I'm sure that in the design process many wild concepts were evaluated and rejected before they arrived at the 1125r that you see today. It is not a mistake that Buell has won awards for their elegant design solutions. I seem to recall the magnesium fairing support of the firebolts winning several awards for one example... As a consumer we only see the tip of the iceberg in regards to what goes into getting a multi-national street legal production motorcycle to roll off the production line as a finished product. At least that's how I see it. |
