| Author |
Message |
    
Winchcable
| | Posted on Friday, September 15, 2006 - 08:43 pm: | 
|
Hello all, I have a 2006 XB12Ss, 1500 miles on it. I am 225 pounds geared up and the suspension is set for my weight, tire preasure is good, stock tires.
My question is this: when I am riding I can very lightly push on the bars and the front end will move as though the wheel is almost off the ground. It's hard to describe in words but it's like the front end is so light and loose that all my weight is transferred to the back and there is none on the front. I can't remember any other bikes behaving this way. Is this a Buell thing? The bike isn't unstable, I can wiggle the bars back and forth and it doesn't want to go into a speed wobble or anything like that, it's very controllable but it feels strange. Does everyone's Buell have the same feeling? I can't really put my finger on it but now that I noticed it I can't get it out of my head, it's like if somethings were to happen it seams like the bike would go into a high speed wobble easily. Does this make sense what I am trying to convey?
So, short question, do all Buells have a very light feeling front end, almost like the wheel is almost off the ground.
Thanks
(Message edited by winchcable on September 16, 2006) |
Nutsnbolt
| | Posted on Saturday, September 16, 2006 - 07:16 pm: |
|
Okay, this is a real easy fix. This EXACT scenario you talked about happened to me TODAY. I assume you have the settings set per Buell. Well, here's what I did. I weigh about the same as you do. What I did was Set the bike for one setting lower. I assume you have it set with the preload at 7 and the C/R at about 1-.75. If Im right, set it at the next lowest level per the book. The only thing i kept the same was the rings on the forks at 3.5. After this, if it feels heavy, turn them all up .25 of a turn. or even a .12.5 a turn. You'd be surprised how much an 1/8 of a turn makes a difference.
So to sum up, keep the preload the same and set the rest at one lower per the book.
It worked for me. |
Xring
| | Posted on Monday, September 18, 2006 - 08:20 am: |
|
My XB9S does steer light.
That being said, it could be your steering head bearings need adjusted. At least on my XB9S, the factory manual spec is to torque the steering head bearings, and check the amount of force needed to turn the front wheel from lock to lock, using a spring scale (with the front wheel off the ground).
I've had to adjust my steering head bearings 3 times now; bike has 11500 miles on it.
You should probably check the turning force on your bike, and if it is OK and you don't have any other indications that your steering head bearings are loose, don't worry about it.
Good luck,
Bill |
Winchcable
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 12:58 pm: |
|
Nutsnbolt,
My settings are right from the book:
200-230 LB. Range
Front Fork
Preload - 7
Compression - 1.75
Rebound - 1.625
Rear Shock
Preload - 4
Compression - 1.75
Rebound - 1.5
I'm a little confused with what you said. You said to drop to the next lowest setting, I assume you are talking about the 170-200 LB Range. Did you adjust the forks only or both ends? You also said you kept the rings on the forks at 3.5. My rings are 7 showing (according to the book). Could you give some more details to your setup?
Xring, I will look into the bearings. I'll rig up something to get the front end off the ground, it sure isn't as easy as the dirtbike, just pick it up and throw it on the stand.
Thanks |
M1combat
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 07:56 pm: |
|
You've got that backwards wrt preload...
Forks should be 4 lines showing and ramp seven on the rear... That could certainly be why the front feels light... Be VERY careful coming out of turns hard on the power with that setup... As a matter of fact... just be REAL careful until you fix it...
As far as the damping... You may have that backwards too... Check it. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 08:46 pm: |
|
Don,
He has the XB12Ss and his settings are indeed per the book. See the 3rd table at the very bottom of the page at...
http://www.buell.com/om/99474-06Y_en/file-5.asp#hdtopic000667 |
Winchcable
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 08:58 pm: |
|
M1combat,
I'm looking at the book right now and my numbers above are what is in the book. I guess the book could be misprinted but I can't be sure. Why do you say the front should be 4 lines showing and the rear at the #7 ramp?
On a side note, would changing the preload on the front 1 line down to 6 showing tranfer weight to the front? In my mind I think it would but it would also change the sag with my weight.
Thanks
(Message edited by winchcable on September 19, 2006) |
Nutsnbolt
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 20, 2006 - 06:52 am: |
|
I honestly believe that the Rear Shock and Front Fork Preloads are backwards. I mean I could be wrong, but in my experience with a couple of other bikes (Italian, and Jap) they have all had this basic showa setup. Typically, the only thing that has changed throughout all my other brands of bikes has just been the reb/comp. but it's only changed by a turn or turn and 1/4.
However, having researched this a little further, I have discovered that the xb12Ss was designed for larger riders, having a larger swing arm larger fuel capacity, etc. Soooo, I can therefore understand the setting of 4 for the rear shock preload, but I'm still apprehensive about the fork preload. Now, that being said, you should just make a flathead screwdriver real easy to get to while you are riding around. If it feels to light and flicky, pull over and adjust accordingly.
Most riders find that the factory settings are just really a guideline more than scripture.
Good Luck. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 12:20 am: |
|
Well... I didn't realize they were so far different I guess. That said...
Setting preload to 7/4 shouldn't be TOO entirely bad as it'll essentially just lower the bike (keeping in mind that a preload adjustment does NOT actually change static spring tension like the name implies).
I suppose the SS also has the larger springs which may indeed be a stiffer rate spring as well... Alright... go by the book  . I just figured the book said 4/7 .
My bad.
I was imagining a situation where the front could come up a long ways on acceleration making it light and twitchy (especially with a larger/heavier rider)... I still say that's what's happening, but if the book wants it that way... Still doesn't really "seem" right to me though... Hmmmm... |
M1combat
| | Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 12:30 am: |
|
Preload line 7 for a 200-230lb rider???
What?
What do they say for a 140lb rider? Line 16? That doesn't make ANY sense to me. Same for the rear... a 140 lb rider on ramp -2 or something?
One thing winchable... When they're talking about the rear preload ramp... They're talking about number one placing the collar towards the top of the shock and number 7 placing the collar closest to the tire. On spot seven the entire collar will be under the nub. On line one, the nub will be buried in the collar. It's the reverse of the front. More lines on the front removes preload (turns the adjuster out), but a higher number ramp on the rear adds preload.
Still... seven lines on the front and ramp four doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.
I still think it's wrong damnit . |
M1combat
| | Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 12:49 am: |
|
Alright that's just plain weird...
200-230
Front Preload - 7
1.75
1.625
Rear Preload - 4
1.75
1.50
Right from Buell's FAQ page.
WTH... They only use a range from 6 to 7 lines on the front for anyone weighing anywhere from 140 to 290 pounds. They use the entire preload range on the rear for that weight spread.
How can that be right?
Well... If that's the case... I would add preload to the rear. Maybe take some off the front (like one line).
Maybe they had trouble with the forks bottoming or the steering getting really heavy under HEAVY braking so they figured it's best to keep the CG low for less mechanical advantage? It still makes no sense, but I'm thinking that more rear preload or less front will help.
They use a much larger spread for front preload on the Scg, sx and s models... |
Nutsnbolt
| | Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 06:40 am: |
|
Yea, I would almost consult Court on this matter. I understand the book says what it says, but that just defies conventional wisdom about the "theory" in preload adjustments. But, I hear ya M1, it doesn't make any sense to me, either. I mean, with an adjustment of only 1 line, either way, it seems to me they could have just gone with straight solid tube for that matter. Just Rigid it, i guess. Oh well.
Like I said, I would consult Court about this. |
Winchcable
| | Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 07:56 am: |
|
I'm with everyone on this, I have my dirtbike dialed in but the Buell doesn't make sense with the differences in the book between models. I'll start playing around with it when I get more time. I'll try dropping the front down one line and go for a ride then adding one to the back if it doesn't change. I have played the suspension game, it can be frustrating. Thanks for all the help. |
Winchcable
| | Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 08:05 am: |
|
Re-reading this I'm thinking about the front preload. To me 7 lines showing would mean that there is no pressure on the spring as opposed to only say 3 lines showing. Am I correct with this thinking? I know M1combat mentioned it above. So 7 lines is really what I want in this situation no less. I need to bump up the rear from 4 to 5 to transfer the weight to the front as a start. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 04:33 pm: |
|
Yeah... play with the rear first WRT preload. If it were me (I don't really like to make suspension suggestions...) nd my bike I might go two notches stiffer on the rear preload.
Also... Make sure your tire pressures are spot on. That said... I don't know what spot on should be on an SS w/ whatever tires are on it. I know I run 32/34.5 on mine, but it's an '04 R with Metz M3's...
What line are you on for your front rideheight? |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 01:03 am: |
|
In my opinion using the lines on the preload adjusters is not the most desirable method for suspension tuning. Far better to actually measure and set the actual sag. You'll just need a friend to help is all. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 02:02 am: |
|
Well... I agree with that for the most part but to be honest that's not perfect either...
They say 30-35mm sag... OK... that put's the damper in it's favored range of travel (usually) but that doesn't mean that you've got the geometry right...
I agree that you should set the sag correctly, but then you need to make ride height adjustments with the fork level and an expensive shock... Then you need to re-adjust your sag... then you need to re-adjust your ride height... then you need to readjust your sag... etc... etc...
To answer your question winchable... preload doesn't "pre-tension" the spring as such. ONLY the weight of the bike and/or rider will do that. There is some tension in the spring as installed in the fork, but preload really only adjusts the amount that the bike will sag WITH the weight of the bike and then bike and rider. Preload only affects your ride height and where in the suspension's travel range it travels.
If you remove all of the preload you're more likely to bottom for sure, and if you add all of the preload you'll find that the front gets light and twitchy coming out of a turn. Same for the rear (sorta) but if you add all the preload it'll sway going into a turn hard on the brakes or it'll squat too much on the way out (or bottom if you hit a bump).
Say you have 10mm of static sag (bike sits 10mm from being topped with just the bike, no rider)... You sit on the bike and it sags, say, another 20mm... You now have 30mm of "rider sag".
Now remove preload so that you have 12mm of static sag... The bike will still only sag 20mm more when you sit on it, giving you 32mm of "rider sag".
Note -
When you remove preload from either end you'll be changing the weight balance of the bike/rider just a hair towards the end that you removed the sag from... This means that in the above example you actually end up with just a hair MORE than the 32mm of rider sag that one would expect...
IMO the term "preload" is somewhat misleading.
I believe it's called preload because it DOES pre-tension the spring when the forks aren't supporting any weight. Once you place enough weight on the forks that they compress (like installing them on a bike and then setting the bike on the ground) you totally ruin the fact that they're "pre-loaded" because they aren't loaded by the adjuster any longer, they're loaded by the bike. The weight of the bike overcomes the "pre-load", therefor it's not loaded by the preload any longer. At that point the preload ONLY adjusts ride height.
That said , if I tell someone to adjust the "preload" they know which adjustment I'm talking about so the term works .
Oh and... What line are you on for your fork depth winchable? |
Winchcable
| | Posted on Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 06:57 am: |
|
M1combat,
Never noticed the lines on the tubes before and didn't read about them in the book. I took a shot of the section I think you are talking about, I'm just under the second line I think.
|
Nutsnbolt
| | Posted on Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 07:41 am: |
|
No, you're looking at it the wrong way. You are at Line 7.
Not just under the 2nd line. Fork preload lines are how many lines are showing. |
Winchcable
| | Posted on Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 08:04 am: |
|
Nutsnbolt,
I know the preload is on 7 (but thanks for helping with this), M1combat was asking about fork depth, not sure what fork depth is unless he is talking about raising or dropping the forks in the clamps. If you look at the fork tube itself, not the preload adjuster, there are lines on the tube also. Take a look at the picture just above the upper triple clamp and you will see some faint lines. I think they are the lines he is asking about when he says fork depth. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 10:41 pm: |
|
Yes , that's what I was asking about Winchable. Thanks for the pic...
I seem to remember reading somewhere in my service manual what the stock setting is. On my firebolt it's right on two but judging from the significant differences in the other settings I wouldn't go with that .
Lets look in other directions...
What other bikes have you ridden? Any other sport bikes? The XB is very responsive for sure... Are you hanging on too tight? Are your arms tense? Are you gripping with your legs and not trying to keep yourself on the bike with the bars? If it's at highish speeds... how loose are your clothes? |
Winchcable
| | Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2006 - 09:05 pm: |
|
M1combat,
I'll have to look in my book to see if it mentions the lines, just haven't had the time lately.
Other bikes ridden lately have only been a Hayabusa and my dirt bike. Not hanging on too tight, learned that from motocross so that's not the problem. Not tense either and my clothes are tight enough that I don't have a parachute behind me, I'm riding the bike like I have always ridden bikes, been doing it for the past 15 plus years. At the time I noticed the lightness I was only doing 50MPH and at steady speed, not under acceleration.
I haven't ridden lately but am going to try and get out this weekend if the weather co-operates and I will pay attention to all the subtle details.
Thanks for the help. |
Nutsnbolt
| | Posted on Friday, September 29, 2006 - 03:09 pm: |
|
I still say you add a 1/4 -1/2 turn to the S side on the rebound of the forks. But, that's just my two cents.
No offense but I keep reading all this and it's starting to sound too complicated. I can't imagine all Ss riders having the same problem. That's why I don't think it's a "Problem" per say.
All I can tell you is I had the "EXACT" problem that you describe. I mean to the "T". So, I'm just passing on what I did. Carry a screwdriver in your pocket or somewhere on your bike and just tinker with it. 1/2 turns here and there. Nothing drastic. If you don't like it... you can always turn it back.
If you're gonna take the bike out this weekend, it can't hurt to try.
Good Luck
Mark |
Winchcable
| | Posted on Friday, September 29, 2006 - 08:56 pm: |
|
I hear you Nutsnbolts, if I am able to get out this weekend I'll try a few things one at a time. Thanks for the info. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Friday, September 29, 2006 - 11:29 pm: |
|
Well... Again, I don't own an SS, but on my R a half turn is pretty drastic... I rarely move them more than a 1/8 turn and that's generally more than I like to. |
Winchcable
| | Posted on Saturday, September 30, 2006 - 04:50 pm: |
|
M1combat (or anyone else that may know),
Where do you find out how many lines the forks should be on for ride height? See the picture above for the lines I am talking about. I am asking about the lines that are showing from the upper clamp, not the preload lines. I can't find anything in the owners manual about them so maybe it will take a service manual to find out.
Thanks. |
Nutsnbolt
| | Posted on Saturday, September 30, 2006 - 06:55 pm: |
|
I can only tell you this; On both my Ducati and MZ and my firebolt, the factory setting has always been 2 lines. Could just be a coinsidence? Maybe. Is there some credence to that? Maybe.
Again, if you want my opinion, you should go to "court's" section on the bad web and ask him. Generally, if he doesn't know, then it doesn't exist or you're lying to him.
Not really, but to put it mildly, he's pretty dang smart.
Good Luck.
Mark |
Winchcable
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 03, 2006 - 12:55 pm: |
|
I asked the question in Court's section and he was able to post some images from the service manual that showed the clamps flush with the second line. I will adjust my forks so they are the same. The bike is never unstable, it's just very easy to lean over.
Thanks for all the help. |
Nutsnbolt
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 03, 2006 - 10:17 pm: |
|
Yeah, it's kind of "flicky." That's how I described it to someone weeks ago. You barely touch it and it wants to turn or lean or .... whatever!! I know what it is that you are talking about. It's like there isn't any weight on the front end and it wants to take off on you.
That's how it was for me.
If I seemed like I wanted to turn, it just wanted to damn near lay flat without any force or hesitation.
I think I know what you are talking about. You want a little resistance, per say. You don't want to breathe on the handlebars and have the bike get all twitchy and flicky.
I don't like to give "extremely specific" suspension suggestions but, I think that if you make a 1/4 turn on the bottom of the forks and a 1/2 turn on the top of the forks. Start there, if it seems like its better but not perfect, move on the reb/comp on the rear of the bike. Just a 1/4 turn though.
Like I said before, if that doesn't work, turn it back. Then immediately after that, find some gasoline and a match... Just kidding. After that, I would consult "Court" again with what you are talking about and see what he says.
Good Luck, man
Mark |
Winchcable
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 03:33 pm: |
|
Nutsnbolt, you got it, the bike is flicky. I guess I just get used to it, not a big deal. I will try your suggestion and if it works great, if not everything will be fine after a month of riding after I get used to it. I think I am so used to my dirtbike that the Buell seems out of whack.
Thanks again for the help. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Saturday, October 07, 2006 - 01:16 am: |
|
Well... They do have a nice roll rate...
And here I thought you had a problem . |
Meanstrk
| | Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 12:54 pm: |
|
If the bike is "flicky" for you, then you are not use to it's turn in rate. One way to correct that, if you have the available room, would be to drop the forks in the clamps 5mm or so. This raises the front end and reduces the turn in rate. |
|
Troubleshooting (Poor Starting/Running/Handling/Ride Issues) »
Archive through February 28, 2007 »
XB12Ss - front end loose or light, very easy to wobble