| Author | Message | ||
     Court |
The entire ECMspy thing scares the heck out of me. I watch how, fully aware that Buell is constrained by things like regulations and motor longevity, diligently the engineers work to optimize the factory maps. . . I'd just be real cautious, for a couple horsepower, of voiding my warranty and rolling the dice. | ||
| Oxygen151 |
That's exactly why I personally do not want to mess around with it. I'd rather pay and expert for a tune and make minor adjustments from there. I'd love to get a dyno tune but too much $$$. | ||
| Ourdee |
Court, I really like my bike, (  tangent alert) But I'd risk my warranty to make it work right off idle. Revving high and slipping the clutch for a smooth takeoff doesn't make me think the engineer got it right. I worked with engineers for 10 years and saw some spectacular results of wrong choices. What I'm saying is that with a little common sense you can't muck it up much more than someone already has. Ahh, now I feel better. PS I do understand the need for sponsors/sponsor protection, and it is a fine line to balance sometimes. Glad I don't have to do it. | ||
| Mmcn49 |
Buell's, the newer ones anyway, run super lean. This EPA mandated leanness is the root cause of the stumbling, bumbling and surging. How can installing a WB sensor, data-logging and enriching the AFR to a more normal pre-EPA AFR, (from 14.7 to about 13.6) going to damage anything? The heads will run cooler and the engine will probably last longer. | ||
| Court |
Willing to be quoted on that?  Experience proves much the opposite. | ||
| Ourdee |
Court, Ok, I'll give it to you that is a pretty general statement. This is the quote I would prefer to release," With a little common sense; I can't muck it up much more than someone already has". I know it needs to be richer when the throttle is opening up and the revs have not come up yet. It needs to lean back out as the revs come on board without trying to go leaner than 14.7 with out adding steam and over-riding the o2 sensor. So what I mean is ME with common sense. Is that better?  | ||
| Court |
I'm jaded having seen so many perfectly good bikes screwed up by well meaning folks and hucksters. The question I always ask them . . . are you willing to back it up for two years. . . Buell is. | ||
| Id073897 |
Experience proves much the opposite. How many and whose engines got damaged by installing a WB sensor, data-logging and running the AFR richer? | ||
| Jos51700 |
I gotta split the middle here. Court, I've fixed a bazillion bikes, and a large part of them are jobs that people have screwed up and have to spend more to get them fixed than if they'd paid pros in the first place. I did an XB9R last night for those same reasons. ECMspy fans, yes the factory maps are horrendously horrible and the root cause of world famine, war, pollution, poverty, poor voter turnout, and male impotance. Factory maps can be "improved" (at least in the sense that they can offer more of what street riders typically want, once the concessions that engineers are forced to work with are gone) However, ECMspy tuning on the street is nearly pointless, and rarely renders a tune that is ideal (Better, maybe, but far from "good"). I think most riders would flip if they saw how good it can be, but most have no clue how much work that really takes, and also have no clue as to what an engine really needs. I don't like seeing most people playing with things like ECMspy because they DO stand to screw things up majorly. BUT, I can't blame them, they're just trying to get the best bike that they can. I am NOT a dyno master. Given a dyno and a bike, I could give it a 90% tune. (That's better than 90% of the tuning out there, that is). However, ten percent of the people doing a dyno tune are doing better than I ever will, and that last 10 percent makes 100 percent of the difference. (getting that last 10% is also the part that takes years in a dyno cell to learn, and dynoing all day long isn't fun) Cleaning up an idle is one thing, but don't buy a map from someone, and don't butt-dyno it. Find one of those 91+-percenters (Ryan Yost in the Las Vegas area is a 100 percenter), and spend the coin. Besides, if your dyno shop blows it up, you can usually get them to pay to fix it! | ||
| Jos51700 |
How many and whose engines got damaged by installing a WB sensor, data-logging and running the AFR richer? Check back in a couple of years when fuel-wash has prematurely worn out their piston rings, and they have excessive blowby and piss-poor compression. | ||
| Oxygen151 |
Okay so spending maybe $30 to make a cable and load a map into your ECM using ECMspy is more pointless for regular street use than to spend $400+ on dyno tuning? I just don't get why you wouldn't think its the other way around. To me it seems that if I were going to race my bike, dyno tuning would be the only option. For the streets I do no need every single last fraction of a HP, I simply want a tune that works better with the modifications that I do. | ||
| Jos51700 |
I'm not saying it's not worth it. I'm simply saying that as far as driveability, efficiency, and reliability are concerned, dyno-tuning is a better (Not ONLY) route than arbitrarily making changes. Data-logging is NOT a replacement for a COMPLETE understanding of internal combustion dynamics. Besides, ECMspy is godsend for the average rider that just wants to pull a trouble code now and then or get to know his bike a little better. I've had access to all the latest dealer-level equipment, and I still have an ECMspy cable. Like I said, it's a two-sided coin. I think Court will agree; owning the tools does not a mechanic make, and in the wrong hands, a simple screwdriver can do a LOT of damage. | ||
| Jos51700 |
I simply want a tune that works better with the modifications that I do I will say that I support this, but most people are not extracting the full potential of the mods they make. Example? The XB9R I worked on last night. Guy said, "Screw the dealer, I'll install a race kit myself". One high-flow air cleaner, ECM, and race muffler later, and he's done, right? Well, the race kits work alot better when you pull the snorkel out of the frame. I'm not saying you're going to make an obvious blunder like that, but I doubt most people are getting the most out of their mods, and that's usually why they mod in the first place, to get more out of the bike. | ||
| Oxygen151 |
I understand that something like this is not to be played around with. This is exactly why i started this thread, asking questions about an alternative to dyno tuning, that would be more reliable than myself. Obviously dyno-tuning is the best option. I doubt you would find one person to state otherwise. All im saying is people that truly do understand what they are getting themselves into, can make a decent map for their bike for relative little to no money. | ||
| Oxygen151 |
I would install a race kit myself as well. I'm not going to pay someone $90 an hour to do simple modifications that most anyone could do with a few hand tools. Obviously, you are going to have your handful of idiots, but I mean come on I think you are underestimating the people here a little bit. Thats just my opinion. | ||
| Dogdaze |
So are there 'typical' or starting point ECMspy maps for different Buell configurations? As a purely random example, lets say a map for a 2004 xb12s with race kit (race ecm, k&n, race pipe), right side scoop, Pazzo levers, XBlights taillight, and big scratch on the tank? | ||
| Rah7777777 |
As a purely random example, lets say a map for a 2004 xb12s with race kit (race ecm, k&n, race pipe), right side scoop, Pazzo levers, XBlights taillight, and big scratch on the tank?  | ||
| Slaughter |
Right side scratch? | ||
| Bombardier |
Does dyno tuning cover all throttle positions and rpms? | ||
| Mmcn49 |
Jos-At what point,(AFR) do you start gas washing cylinders? At 4000 RPM and a low TPS setting, is a 13.6 AFR too rich? Somehow I don't think so. Buell is the only bike I've owned where bright white spark plug insulators are considered normal. | ||
| Id073897 |
-At what point,(AFR) do you start gas washing cylinders? Not unless you will see black smoke from the exhaust, which is typically below AFR 9. | ||
| Jos51700 |
At 4000 RPM and a low TPS setting, is a 13.6 AFR too rich? Somehow I don't think so. My point exactly! Is that at cruise, or is it a transition period during low-to-high throttle opening? What's your spark timing? What's your volumetric efficiency? (This affects the base maps) What do the lookup cells on either side of this theoretical one look like? (Is the map smooth or notchy?) There's alot more here than "rich or lean". Another perspective: Why run it that rich? What's the benefit? I wouldn't run it that rich for a multitude of reasons, but the biggest is that there's no benefit. Fuel wash happens at ANY fuel ratio. Carbureted cars ran (in the late '70's) well into the 16's (AFR) and STILL had fuel wash issues, even with the benefits of long, heated intake manifolding. The more the fuel, the more the oil washoff, period. That's partially why diesels last so long; diesel fuel does not wash oil like gasoline does. And "At 4000 RPM and a low TPS setting, is a 13.6 AFR too rich?" highlights another aspect of my point of view. At 13.6 AFR with low throttle opening, you're giving up fuel economy, torque, and throttle response. My guess is those are the things you were after when you began tuning, and you've tossed them out the door. Will your bike blow up? No. Are you doing what's best for your bike? No. It's your bike and if you want to do that to it, I support you. BUT, I wouldn't do it to MY bike. | ||
| Firebolt32 |
Ok...so for someone that is using ECMSpy, what would you recommend? | ||
| Oxygen151 |
Jos51700, Obviously you know quite a bit about tuning these Buells and I get that you feel that there is no other option than letting a great dyno-tuner tune it. However, if you were me, who just wants to get a good tune that works with his modifications, I want to know why you would not buy a tune from Xopti or any other similar person? Other than obvious reasons that you dont want to spend $100 or something. Valid reasons, that will help me make a decision as to where to take my Buell. Also, how do you feel about just running a Buell Race ECM? I am just trying to get educated opinions on what I should or should not do. Thanks. | ||
| Aptbldr |
Has anyone offered to Oxygen151, "Hey, my bike's got 'bout the same setup. You want to try my maps?" I'm new, is that un-cool on forum? | ||
| Id073897 |
. The more the fuel, the more the oil washoff, period. Which at least rises the question: where does the washed off oil disppear? | ||
| Skinstains |
I can set and adjust points. So there. | ||
| Skully |
Why can't data logging be used to fine tune the map? | ||
| Dc29 |
I only want a cable and spy to reset TPS. My bike seems to have trouble keeping front wheel on ground and tires on it now.Buell got mine right no problems. Last TPS reset at 1500mi.seems to be running as good as always. I sure don't want to screw with my map. Might ruin a good thing.I'm with court on this one. | ||
| Mmcn49 |
My TT handles and accelerates great. When cruising, regardless of RPM it just stumbles and bumbles along. When first purchased, it was horrible. In addition to the surging it lost power between 3000-4000 RPM. I data logged with ECM spy. Made the cell changes per Mega Log and richened, (smoothed) the lean cells between 3-4000 RPM that were causing the power dip. Additionally Xpoti provided several suggestions to further “trick” the ECM. The bike runs much better now, but it still bumbles along when cruising and I find that irritating. Now that the cold rainy weather is here in the PNW I’m going to install an o2 bung in the front header and data log with a WB sensor. I have two goals: 1. Have an engine that runs smoothly at all RPM’s whether cruising or accelerating. 2. Have spark plug insulators that after use will have a normal light gray or light brown color and not bright white. To me, bright white spark plug insulators indicate a super lean condition. Lean conditions cause elevated cylinder head temperatures which is not good. A BadWeb Bolt owner did the WB sensor install and ended up with an AFR of 13.6. His bike runs great. I’m picking 13.6 based on his success. I know 14.7 is to lean. I don’t know if 14.2 or 14.0 will accomplish what I’m looking for. I’m confident 13.6 will. |
