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Badlionsfan
Posted on Saturday, September 05, 2009 - 05:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

This sucks, I dig the rolling starts.

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?artic le=37994
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Crusty
Posted on Saturday, September 05, 2009 - 05:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I like them as well. Oh, well...
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Backcountryme
Posted on Saturday, September 05, 2009 - 09:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Oh man, the Formula 450 class will be a cool one. I am glad to see that they are going to have this class. This will be a great inexpensive class to go travel with. I want to build one now.
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Backcountryme
Posted on Saturday, September 05, 2009 - 09:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

It would be really cool if there could be a way to slap a Blast in that class.
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Rpm4x4
Posted on Saturday, September 05, 2009 - 11:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Cubes have too much wind resistance
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Blake
Posted on Sunday, September 06, 2009 - 02:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I'm not a big fan of the rolling starts, but if they are safer it was worth trying. I think the fans won out on that one.

What is cool about the 450 class is that it will likely help evolve a new class of sportbikes for the street.

Some days, a really light bike might be nice.
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Firebolt020283
Posted on Sunday, September 06, 2009 - 04:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

so are these 450 bikes going to be dirt bike engines thrown into a road racing frame and body?
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Blake
Posted on Sunday, September 06, 2009 - 06:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

AMA Pro Announces Plans for 2010 Road Racing Season

MILLVILLE, N.J. (September 5, 2009) - AMA Pro Racing today announced modifications that will begin with the 2010 AMA Pro Road Racing season. Though the basic rules for the AMA Pro National Guard American Superbike presented by Parts Unlimited, Daytona SportBike presented by AMSOIL and SuperSport presented by Shoei will remain unchanged, procedures will be modified to increase rider safety. In addition, AMA Pro will expand the SunTrust Moto-GT class structure and form advisory committees to better communicate with its key constituents.

"Based on the competitive balance we have seen on the racetrack between various brands in 2009, the fundamental structure of the rules package will remain unchanged," said AMA Pro President Roger Edmondson. "We foresee that certain competition adjustments will be made to ensure that competitive balance continues. During the offseason, we will be finalizing the analysis of all the data before those competitive adjustments are announced."

Beginning with the Daytona 200 in March of 2010, all races will begin with clutch starts for all series. In addition, where possible, the race starter will be positioned at ground level to assist riders' ability to see the flags.

"While it was our intention to maximize safety at the beginning of races by utilizing the rolling start, it brought its own set of challenges, and we have not been convinced that our goals of safety were realized in the way that we wanted," Edmondson said. "It was clear from the response of fans and the AMA Pro community that they prefer the original clutch starts, and because the rolling start did not prove to be clearly safer, we will return to the clutch start for all AMA Pro Road Racing divisions in 2010."

Previously, a decision was made to suspend the use of Pace and Safety vehicles on a hot racetrack during yellow flag conditions. Furthering that decision, for 2010 and beyond, the Pace and Safety vehicles will only be used to restart the field following red flag situations.

In another effort to increase safety, two-way radio communication between riders and their crew chiefs will be mandatory in select classes. Also, AMA Pro is currently working with potential suppliers to develop an early warning system to notify riders of changing track conditions.

"Rider safety is an ongoing concern," Edmondson said. "We need to explore new technologies when seeking to resolve problem areas. It is time for a new way to warn riders of problems or changing track conditions beyond the old flagging system. We are encouraged by our discussions with suppliers, and hope to introduce the early warning system for the 2010 season."

SunTrust Moto-GT will expand to three classes from its previous two-class format. The new GT3 class will feature machines that currently fit the technical specifications of the Formula 450 structure. AMA Pro is also investigating the potential of adding up to two additional single-brand series to complement the existing class structure.

"We will continually work with manufacturers to create compelling competition to showcase their product on the racetrack and provide great value to our fans as well as exceptional content for our promoter partners," said Edmondson.

Advisory Committees will also be formed in order to better communicate with the AMA Pro community. The committees will include representatives of promoters, riders, entrants and manufacturers. The three main sub committees will be Technical, Facility and Race Operations.

The Technical Committee will focus on rule changes, equipment changes and homologation issues. The Facility Committee will deal with safety, promotion, event infrastructure and general show quality. The Race Operations Committee will focus on race operations, penalties and appeal processes.

"We believe direct communication is vital to the growth of our sport," said AMA Pro Vice President of Marketing & Communications Ollie Dean. "We feel that organizing these committees and giving structure to the communication process will best serve the needs of our community. This will give us the ability to hear from diverse perspectives on a variety of issues and give us the ability to develop strategies and initiatives that will best serve the shared goal of growing our sport."

More information on the AMA Pro Advisory Committees, including the nomination process and meeting dates, will follow.
AMA Pro Racing is the premier professional motorcycle racing organization in North America, operating a full schedule of events and championships for a variety of motorcycle disciplines. From its Daytona Beach headquarters, the organization operates and manages AMA Pro Road Racing, which includes AMA Pro American Superbike, AMA Pro Daytona SportBike, AMA Pro SuperSport and AMA Pro SunTrust Moto-GT. AMA Pro Racing also manages and works closely with the day-to-day operational organizations of the AMA Pro Flat Track Championship and the AMA Pro Supermoto Championship Series in addition to other two-wheel and ATV series. Learn more about AMA Pro Racing at www.amaproracing.com.
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Rocketsprink
Posted on Sunday, September 06, 2009 - 09:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Sorry, but throwing a 450 single out in the Moto-GT series with 1125's, 600, and the GT2 class? Disaster waiting to happen. there is a HUGE difference in straight line speed. I can already see the outcome of that idea.
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Firebolt020283
Posted on Sunday, September 06, 2009 - 10:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

don't sport car races do this? They are professional racers I do not see a problem with it at all
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Rocketsprink
Posted on Sunday, September 06, 2009 - 10:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Well, I don't race in the AMA, but I do race CCS. I've raced with some of the riders now running Moto-GT. I've had more than my fair share of slower bikes and near misses. Couple that with not much room and time to make a passing move, throw in a half dozen 600's and 1125's coming up on a 450 single all trying to get around the slower bike and wait for the outcome.
I don't see how you can compare car racing and bike racing. A car hits the wall and the drive gets out, most of the time. Ask Shawn Higbee about hitting a wall in Iowa and how he left the track. You're kinda hanging out in the open on a bike, not surrounded by a safety cage like a car. The closing speed between those bike will be astounding.
AMA thought rolling starts and safety cars were a good idea too.
I truly hope I'm wrong, but I don't see that mix of bikes going without and incident.
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Blake
Posted on Sunday, September 06, 2009 - 01:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Didn't they used to have three classes prior to integration of MotoST into AMA events? I don't think 450's were included though.
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Rocketsprink
Posted on Sunday, September 06, 2009 - 02:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

yes. all were twin cylinders.
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Backcountryme
Posted on Sunday, September 06, 2009 - 03:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Formula 450 is a dirt bike frame, single cylinder bike with a 250 GP bodywork. They are slower down the straights, but get through the turns way faster then a big bike. I know when Danny was first starting out in road racing he raced a 125 against the big bikes. There was a class that pretty much raced anything. The big bikes would kill him on the fast sections, but Danny passed them in the turns. But I agree, if there is a big speed difference then the bikes should not race at the same time.
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Ferris_von_bueller
Posted on Monday, September 07, 2009 - 10:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I believe this is an example



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Backcountryme
Posted on Monday, September 07, 2009 - 02:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

And a nicely done example. I love the idea of these bikes. It might also bring about a really cool little street bike in the future
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Trojan
Posted on Monday, September 07, 2009 - 05:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Check here for US 450 Moto http://www.450moto.com/

and here for the Euro version http://www.450gp.com/EN/index.html

They are a great learner or budget class when run as a separate class, but could be dangerous running amongst superbikes simply because they will run different high corner speed lines and be much slower (almost 70mph slower!) on the straights than a full on 1000 IL4 Superbike.

DMG talk about making racing safer yet seem to have no idea how to do it. This year's rolling starts and pace cars are a measure of that.

Now they will return to clutch starts, but put the starter at ground level to increase visibility? Visibility to who? the front row maybe, or the second row but no further than that. The guys at the back will go when the row in front does because they won't see the starter at ground level that's for sure.
Maybe they think there will only be enough teams to fill 3 rows in AMA Superbike next year ; )

The rest of the racing world works fine with flags and pit boards, yet all of a sudden DMG thinks this is dangerous and wants to introduce rider-pit communication? Who is going to pay for this? Who is going to administer it? What hapens to the 'one man teams'?. Will race control be able to speak to all riders? What happens if one or more riders have communications failure? (it WILL happen).

Flags/pace cars have been dangerous this year in AMA at Laguna because of poor organisation, not because the system is bad.

Forget rider/pit radios and train your track staff better to get the correct flags displayed faster, and train riders to recognise flags and take correct immediate action. That way you have a professional racing class. How do yout hink WSB/MotoGP/BSB and every other top class organisation does it?

What the sport doesn't need (either in the US or in Europe) is more committees and more stupidly pointless rules that achieve nothing except cost money, p*ss people off and drive enthusiasts away from racing.

End of rant : ) Don't get me started in the UK race scene.............
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Court
Posted on Monday, September 07, 2009 - 06:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

>>>Forget rider/pit radios and train your track staff better to get the correct flags displayed faster, and train riders to recognise flags and take correct immediate action.

Shit . . I hate it when I agree with you.

The first lap disaster at NJMP yesterday made it clear that whatever system they use . . SUCKS.

The track was littered with parts the size of a paperback book . . . the guys kicked off what they could but were still making runs for the track as the riders came around on the 2nd lap . . . . all I could think was this is going to make one of those "amazing video" shows . . . I have the entire thing on video but it was very dangerous.

Interesting enough a lot of bikes made the successful weave between the parts . . . it was like the 7th bike that first hit one of the larger parts on the track.
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Sycho
Posted on Monday, September 07, 2009 - 06:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Here's a 450 single with a Uly Front end
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Dentguy
Posted on Monday, September 07, 2009 - 07:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The rest of the racing world works fine with flags and pit boards, yet all of a sudden DMG thinks this is dangerous and wants to introduce rider-pit communication?

Maybe they really want communication so they can broadcast it on TV to be like Nascar. Saying it will make it safer is a great way to sell the idea.
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Backcountryme
Posted on Monday, September 07, 2009 - 07:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

When we run shows with the midget and sprint car we have incar communication. But it is one way. We can here the track officials, but not crew to driver. It does help as far as getting the show going. And it isn't that coslty. Our radio was only about $250. I know that on short dirt tracks it is nice to know that there is a yellow or red right away.
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Mbc
Posted on Tuesday, September 08, 2009 - 02:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Back,where do you run sprints and midgets ? MBC VRA #2 sprint
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Backcountryme
Posted on Tuesday, September 08, 2009 - 03:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Mbc, we raced the midget all over the country. We have run with USAC, SMRS, TMRA, MARA, pretty much every sanctioning body out there. Oh, don't forget Chili Bowl. My dad actually worked at the Chili Bowl company. I was at the first Chili Bowl race before it was actually the Chili Bowl. AJ, Danny and I ran the pits at the Expo Center for years. We only did the sprints a few times in Fort Worth Texas. We are midget guys.

Bill Eslick #24
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Backcountryme
Posted on Tuesday, September 08, 2009 - 03:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I changed my profile pic to one of our midgets. We have another one just like the white one with an Esslinger Ford engine in it. Racing is in the Eslick blood.
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Jens
Posted on Tuesday, September 08, 2009 - 11:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

So, who fit the 450 single first into the XB frame?

Jens
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Rubberdown
Posted on Tuesday, September 08, 2009 - 12:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Although it would not be for the 450 series, I want to put an Aprilia 550 liquid cooled v-twin in a XB chassis. I think it would be light, quick, and a lot of fun.
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Crackhead
Posted on Tuesday, September 08, 2009 - 12:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

humm...... sounds like a blast replacement might be coming.

Radios are better then flags. They would assist in quicker restarts, remember Daytona.
The radios would be used to inform every rider that the yellow flag is out, at the same time.
humm, focus on the race track or look way off to the side at the little man waving the flag or the fan that is waving a yellow shirt. Is there any color blind racers in AMA?

Using radios cuts out the reaction time of the flag man, and gets the information out that much quicker.
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Blublak
Posted on Tuesday, September 08, 2009 - 02:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

During Moto-ST they had radios on all the bikes. Comms with the pits worked (I don't know if Moto-GT uses them) well and often would let the crew know the rider was coming in. No hands off the bars, no 'Is he coming off pace' questions since you TOLD your pit you were coming in. It also helped communicate position information ie: "You're running 17 seconds behind third with a 1:46:258 he's running low '47's so you're gaining, but watch out for Team X they're heading out and will be coming on just in front of you, don't worry, they're down 9 seconds."

Try that with a pit board..

The downfalls... Too much information or bad radio protocols can cause a real mess. If there is a center channel with Race Control only broadcasting (over wave - like the PD's use - a priority signal that can over ride team communications) warnings and condition reports OR they could send them to the teams and the teams could relay them out..

Proper communication is a good thing, OVER doing it is what's bad.
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Trojan
Posted on Tuesday, September 08, 2009 - 03:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

focus on the race track or look way off to the side at the little man waving the flag or the fan that is waving a yellow shirt. Is there any color blind racers in AMA?.

Or you could just train corner workers/track marshalls etc to a better standard so that they know when to display the correct colour flag. There are also issues at Laguna (and probably other circuits) where the pit wall is unsighted and the worst place to try and display flag, as shown at both the motoGP and the supporting races this year.

It doesn't take much to make the system in place successfully around the world work, just training. The current flag system works in everything from F1 to MotoGP to WSB right down to the lowliest club race here. It is communication between the race organisers and the corner workers that needs to be improved.

Why spend money and introduce more technology where it isn't needed (unless of course it is to become part of the TV broadcast as suggested earlier, in which case it has nothing to do with safety at all)?

As for the 450 class, I think the USGPRU has a much better idea than the DMG/AMA current proposals, but it will be interesting to see how much crossover there is, or even how much take up of the AMA 'spec' chassis/engine there is compared to the 'build your own' USGPRU system.

As far as I can make out (and it may have changed since Iread this), the AMA proposal is to find one manufacturer willing to provide bikes for the whole field. These would then be leased for the season by competitors wanting to race in the AMA/DMG class. I think there is also an age limit on this class.

USGPRU and other 450Moto classes around the world are pretty open and allow builder to convert almost any current 450MX bike to road racing spec using a few choice components. This allows people who may have 450 bikes laying around (millions apparently in the US alone) to convert them to competitive road racers and even to convert them back again when the mood takes them : )

(Message edited by trojan on September 08, 2009)
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M1combat
Posted on Tuesday, September 08, 2009 - 09:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"don't sport car races do this? They are professional racers I do not see a problem with it at all"

Cars have mirrors.
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Backcountryme
Posted on Tuesday, September 08, 2009 - 10:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I have used one way radios in car racing I have to say that I think it is a great idea. There is no lag time for the race control to get the info to the flagman. It is right away. Race control says there is a yellow, and everyone knows at the same time. It has really saved quite a few crashes due to people not knowing that there is a flag out.
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