| Author | Message | ||
     Snojet |
Ok Uly-Badwebbers, I’m looking to pick your brains before I start in on this problem that I’m having. As a disclaimer/disclosure, I am a mechanic by profession but I am sort of a lazy one when I’m not getting paid for it. Meaning, I simply want to ride and not troubleshoot problems on any of my vehicles. I don’t mind doing the routine servicing. Also, another factor is I catch more grief from the wife when I’m out in the garage working on anything. It’s sort of a joke but I don’t want to hear it. Problem is, once the bike is good and warm it will bog down when you apply a moderate to very quick throttle response towards WOT. It seems to really be more prone to this when the RPM’s are above approx. 3800. To note, I don’t think I am experiencing the skip-sparks mode. That’s because the bike feels like it is “hunting” for the correct fuel/air mixture. It happens more so in the warmer weather (above 70 degrees F), but it has done it in temperatures as low as 45 degrees F. This problem mostly occurs when I’ve been on the highway doing 70 to 80 mph, which equates to approx. 3600- 4200rpm for 20 miles or so. This is if my memory serves me correctly. After the highway time, the problem is still there when I’m on the other roads. I have found that once I exit the highway and stop at a light, then turn off the bike (at the key) and let the fan run until the light changes then start the bike up again and continue to ride, the bike runs great. I can not duplicate the problem at that time; I’m now on the main thoroughfares. I’ve found; for a short time the bike will perform at any throttle settings and it doesn’t bog down, even when I’m quick with the throttle, even all the way to WOT. But that lasts only for a short time, approx. 5 minutes, after that time the problem returns. My attempted fix has been to perform a TPS and AFV resets – no help. Per ECMspy, there are no faults recorded. I am wondering if I need to replace the plugs and wires. I have written all this in the hope to pick/use your combine T/S minds and ease my working time on the bike and get back to riding it. The bike is completely stock with 12k miles on it. 2006 (not so fast Orange, at least not now, that is). The only things I’ve done to the bike are my own TPS, AFV resets, and retarded my timing by 3 degrees (that was a good solution for the summer time hot bike syndrome, the pinged problem). Also, about 4 months ago I tried the “Square Idle” for an afternoon and didn’t have good enough results so I put all the cells back to original. The bike ran fine after that attempt(s). To note, I use this bike everyday for my commute to work and back (home). And for the misc. trips here or there. Thanks in-advance for any help! | ||
| Hughlysses |
My first guess would be leaking intake seals, but that doesn't seem to go with the sporadic symptoms. My next guess would be a sensor failing when it gets hot. Hopefully someone will have a more useful suggestion than that. | ||
| Aeholton |
Have you tried data logging using ECMspy? If not, do so. If you have, what were the O2 and Head Temp sensors reading? Also, have tested for leaking intake seals? | ||
| Okc99 |
If it was at lower rpms, I'd say the Idle Air Controller. It has been the source of many of our headaches 08's | ||
| Hughlysses |
His bike is an 06 so no IAC. | ||
| Etennuly |
Was the engine fully warmed up for the TPS reset? And, did you clean the throttle plate with some carb cleaner? I did a TPS reset recently on an '06 that was running good and made it run worse. It couldn't even make it out of the driveway without sputtering. We cleaned the throttle plate reset the TPS again and it now runs great. | ||
| Ulykan |
Vern, How do you clean the throttle plate? I haven't the slightest idea where it is. My 08XT is giving me a lot of trouble when cold and I did the reset multiple times when the engine was hot but no improvement. | ||
| Rwven |
Take off the airbox cover and top of airbox. It's the round plate just inside the air intake horn on the throttle body. | ||
| Ratbuell |
My 06 hates having the TPS reset without also doing the AFV reset...won't go five feet. DAMHIK. | ||
| Etennuly |
It is the same throttle plate in a carburetor, the butterfly valve that opens when you turn the throttle. Remove the air box cover, the inner air box cover, and the air filter. With the engine off look down the throttle bore and turn the throttle. You will see the throttle plate opening. the under/back side will usually be blackened and have some build up of crud on it. Just spray some carb cleaner from a can with a straw on it, let it soak a few minutes and do it again, less is better, so don't over do it. It will dissolve that crud and black stuff right off. I usually have the engine warmed up good before doing this. It needs to be fully warmed up for the TPS reset, and the heat will evaporate the carb cleaner rather than having it run down into the cylinders. When it first starts it may stumble a bit to clear out the carb cleaner. Make sure the throttle plate is closing clean and smooth to the throttle bore. | ||
| Ulykan |
Thanks for the info guys. | ||
| Blake |
Steve, I like to try the simplest stuff first. With 12K miles, try new spark plugs? Vern (ETenUly), "It needs to be fully warmed up for the TPS reset" Why? | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
The TPS is a potentiometer. There is a temperature coefficient in every type of material. You don't want to define "zero" for the computer when it's going to change value as the engine heats up. Remember that the TPS lives between the jugs. | ||
| Etennuly |
I have twice, personally, seen it done with a cold engine, where it needed to be done again to make it run right. I have also read on BadWeB where others have had the same result. From where I see it all metals expand when heated. When the throttle bore and plate(dissimilar metals) are mated when closed temperature must make a size and fit difference. The first time I heard of it was when I had my '05 City-X done at the dealership under warranty. It was out of spec to begin with at about 4000 miles, they reset it and it still did not run well, I took it back in a week or so later when they checked it again it was still out of spec. The tech told me that can happen if it was not properly warmed up. I recently put an ECM in my bike so warming the engine wasn't possible at the time. I installed the ECM and did a cold TPS set to get it to start up(it would only fire sputter and die). When I warmed it up to set the AFV and idle I rechecked the TPS numbers they changed from 5.1(per VDSTS) I don't recall the exact number of change now, but when warmed up I reset the TPS again to bring it back to 5.1. I can state for the record that this is the best this bike has ever run since new, of course this is only a small part of the solution to my puzzle. Knowing the SM says to warm the engine to 360F to set the idle and AFV, makes my opinion on this lean away from an unstated gray area. It sure is a cheap precaution based on the fact that when the bike is being used per its design, it is fully warmed up. Spark plug aliments are generally consistent, Usually rough idle or miss on upper end. Could be a multiple cause issue though, so with his mechanical knowledge I am trying to assist him with ideas that he may not have thought of. Many people here have done that to help me, and I thank them for even the "off the wall stuff". He is chasing a symptom that is all over the place. Sometimes the little "I didn't think of that" ideas can save a lot of time and provide a direction to look. | ||
| Murraebueller |
We've seen several bikes that have exhibited this tendency to the point of not running at all. Is the fan working properly? Any engine lights? With the three bikes here, we found that the fans not working properly due to malfunctioning (out of range/calibration)engine temp sensors that showed no engine codes allowed the fuel pumps to be overheated enough times that they began to cavitate. They eventually got bad enough that the bikes would stall until cooled off. We used the dyno here to replicate the su=ymptoms and collected data during the process. You might try the same thing with ECM spy. We ended up replacing the temp sensors and fuel pumps and the problems went away. Just a thought. | ||
| Snojet |
"Hughlysses" - I will check for the intake seals leaking. "Aeholton" - I have not data logged. I don't have the equipment to do so. Is there a way to check the o2 sensor and head temp sensor while at idle or revving the rpm's without riding? Are there spec's that can be checked? "Etunnuly" - When performing the TPS and AFV resets I've always had the engine warm/hot. Thanks for the tip on a possible dirty throttle plate, I will check it out/clean. "Blake" - If I remove the airbox, then I will also do the replacement of the plugs and wires. Since I'm in that area, I'll go deep. To note, I've experienced worn plugs in my truck that effected the higher rpms, but it idled fine and at real low rpms. Thanks for jarring my memory. "Murraebueller" - My fan is working properly. I don't have any engine lights. If this problem went away with the very cool weather that I'm experiencing here I would go with the fuel pump cavitating. I do sort of suspect the eng temp sensor. Do you have a procedure to checking it out? If my attempts do not work then I might try and find a dyno and duplicate this. Guy's - Thanks for all the suggestions. This site rocks! | ||
| Murraebueller |
Snojet- the best way to check out the sensors is either on the dyno or data logging while you're riding. If you decide to use a dyno, ping me and I'll pass on the protocol we used. You should be able to data log with ECM spy. The temp sensor is a 0-5 volt sensor. at 0 volts it's 572f degrees and at 4.93 volts it's 14f degrees. If you ping me at sfhdservice@ridenow.com with a number, I can fax you the voltage/resistance/temp chart. | ||
| Etennuly |
My engine temp sensor was part of a long drawn out problem. It measured the volts/temp correctly, only one time showed a proper code. Yet it was compromised causing a group of other problems. When I finally gave up on it giving me good information, but having problems I took it out to find the insulation missing on the first bit of wire coming out of it. The wire was undamaged, not twisted or bent, just exposed. The new one had some kind of clear sealer or coating on this same bit of wire.  |
