| Author | Message | ||
     Warlizard |
Is it true that these regulators can add HP by blocking current rather than dumping it? If so, seems like a cheap way to get a few ponies. Thanx in advance | ||
| Jos51700 |
?? Never heard that in my life. It it were true (not sure how, electromechanically, that could be possible), I'd think the Supersports would use 'em, but they're all shunt-type to my knowledge. I don't think you can "block" current without disconnecting it, and devices that connect/disconnect current are (relatively) unreliable (switches, relays, etc.). | ||
| Jos51700 |
Most current model regulators do include rectifiers internally, but some old ('60s/'70s) bikes had separate regulators and rectifiers. | ||
| Warlizard |
Jos - here is an example of one. http://www.dragspecialties.com/fatbook/7/443/59434 68?q=buell | ||
| Jlnance |
Warlizard - Technically yes. It takes mechanical energy to generate power. A generator is harder to turn when it's loaded. But, 1 HP = 742 watts. Our electrical systems are rated at less than 500W, so you're talking about 'almost a pony' instead of 'a few ponies." | ||
| Bad_karma |
Jim Your correct and those style of regulators are in the after market but pricey. They are still on my short list. Joe | ||
| Jos51700 |
I have never seen that product, and it does make sense that if it's not loaded, it frees up power, but that's true for alternators in cars which regulate output based on demand. The HD/Buell system (Excluding 1125R in this post, with which I am not familiar), produces output based solely on RPM, with no feedback from the regulator. How do I know this? Simple! Part of testing the HD system involves checking the output of the stator with the regulator (It's only connection) disconnected. That's why it dumps excess to ground, because it makes excess in the first place. Car alternators trim back field current so excess isn't really produced. Plus, there's no feedback circuit. The flywheel/magnets, and the alternator windings, have no regulatory circuits. Some electrical engineer is welcome to come on here and prove me wrong, but that's my understanding of the system. I kinda think this is a gimmick. The theory makes sense, but I just don't think it applies. Maybe it does and the dyno will prove it. I don't know. If this thing worked, I'd figure they would bolt these on racebikes instead of going to smaller stators (Smaller flywheel notwithstanding). If it spared the system some heat (mortal enemy of all electrical components), I'd think HD would use 'em. The fact that there's still heat fins on these tells me this whole idea is shady. Dead-heading the power should eliminate the need for most of those fins, and fins cost money. My guess? These are normal regulators, with extra pricing to reduce the load on your wallet. Lighter bikes (as in, without the money in your wallet), will reflect the sole performance gain from this product. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
It blows my mind to find that my 1979 sportster's generator is more advanced than my 2000 Buell's alternator. | ||
| Bad_karma |
Not sure that you will see any dyno change (peak power) but it will free up power (power under the curve, faster revving). A couple of these and some weight off the bike and the rider will add up. Another advantage will be the reduced heat generated. May help with the longevity of the stator and/or related wiring. Now the down side is the voltage and current spikes that I would expect upon switching of conducting states. Also the noise that this cycling will generate will have to be filtered. If you can couple this with a lower capacity alternator(lighter magnets, smaller stator)you will see some benefits in over all performance and operation, I believe. Joe | ||
| Jos51700 |
I just fail to see how the regulator can control the output of the alternator in this system. I have seen these alternators push out more current the faster they go, with the regulator (and therefore, everything else) disconnected. By the theory that not sending that current to ground saves power then makes no sense. It's not sending it to ground, or anywhere else, but the system is still producing the power. And I'm not talking about faster revving, either. It produces the same electrical power (which means it loses the same engine power producing that electrical power) loaded or unloaded, regulated or unregulated. Smaller stators/flywheel do make faster revving motors, but a simple regulator does not affect those componants. | ||
| Reepicheep |
The stator is a collection of coils of wires moving through a fixed permanent magnetic field. One rotation generates X amount of power, so as rev's go up, more power is generated. The regulator is a shunt regulator (a zeener diode driving the gates of an SCR). Think of it as a traffic cop... power comes into the regulator, the regulator directs the power to the bike / battery up until the voltage crosses the target voltage regulation threshold. At that point, our voltage regulator traffic cop sends the rest of that power for that rotation off down a different road(shunted to ground). In theory, the mechanical load on a generator is directly proportional to the electrical load. More electrical load, more mechanical drag. But the Buell shunt regulator never changes the load, it just changes where the load goes, down road A or down road B (straight to nowhere). In theory, a more sophisticated regulator would leave more power in the motor for other tasks... but 1 horsepower is like 640 watts, so there is just not enough difference to notice for a big motor like in the Buells. | ||
| Reepicheep |
If you have an variable field alternator, they regulate to only generate "enough" power by changing the magnetic field. Leaves more power for the bike, but now you have alternator brushes that can go bad. Aaron Wilson ran a shunt regulator and a series regulator on the dyno, and could not see a difference. Which makes sense, it was under 1 HP, thats under the noise threshold on most dynos, and certainly not something you are likely to be able to feel. | ||
| Jos51700 |
But the stator makes that power regardless of where the regulator sends the power....even if the regulator is disconnected. Don't confuse generators, alternators, and stators. Generators (Referencing cars, tractors, etc) and alternators BOTH require electrical input to provide output (the "field" wire). The stator (as the Buell uses) does NOT require this. It IS a generator of electricity, and the terminology is confusing, but it's output is constant based on RPM, regardless of load, regulator operation, etc. Ever wonder why a bad regulator smokes a stator in your bike? Because, the stator made the power, and it went nowhere due to the bad regulator. Car alternator: http://www.alternatorparts.com/understanding_alter nators.htm Our bikes are different, the voltage is always made, and excess wasted. Since it's always made, the regulator mentioned by the OP doesn't save any engine power. I don't doubt that he saw any difference on power: there wasn't one. | ||
| Jos51700 |
I think I'm on the same page as Reepicheep as far as alternators etc, but I think he's saying these regulators work, but not well enough to justify it, and I'm saying it doesn't work. Is that fair/accurate? I hope I'm not coming across as a dick (at least not more than normal). I just hate gimmick products. | ||
| Jlnance |
I just fail to see how the regulator can control the output of the alternator in this system. I have seen these alternators push out more current the faster they go, with the regulator (and therefore, everything else) disconnected. By the theory that not sending that current to ground saves power then makes no sense. It's not sending it to ground, or anywhere else, but the system is still producing the power. And I'm not talking about faster revving, either. It produces the same electrical power (which means it loses the same engine power producing that electrical power) loaded or unloaded, regulated or unregulated. You're close, but you have a couple terms wrong, and it makes a difference. The faster you spin the engine, the more voltage the stator produces. Voltage isn't power and it isn't current, but related to both. The analogy everyone uses is voltage is like water pressure and current is like water flow. If you multiply those two quantities together, the number you get is power. So if you disconnect the stator wires in and spin the engnine, you can measure a voltage across the terminals. The faster you spin the engine,the larger the voltage. But this voltage isn't producing any power. It's like having your houses water pressure at 30 PSI, but all the valves turned off. The pressure is there, but it's not making any water flow. The job of the regulator is to make the voltage the bike sees constant, regardless of what the stator is producing (assuming the stator is producing more than you want.) The way the stock regulator does this is analagous to keeping your house pressure at 30 PSI, given a 40 PSI pressure on the street, by flushing your toilet every so often. The way the aftermarket regulator does it is analagous to adjusting a valve between the street and the house. Inside the house they may produce the same result. But from the standpoint of the pump supplying the street, the second way requires less work. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Yup. Thats what I am saying (both of the above). A switching or series regulator (as opposed to a shunt regulator) will end up getting more power to the rear wheel for your bike, but not enough to practically measure or feel, mainly because 1 HP is a huge number of watts. Makes you appreciate just how much these little motors do... your XB9 engine could happily power several houses in your neighborhood with margin to spare (so long as you don't have electric heat). | ||
| Bad_karma |
John There is no current flow in an open circuit, no electrical load reflected back to the stator. When there is no current flow through a coil(in this case several ie. the Stator) the EMF(electro Magnetic Field) generated by the magnets is not allowed to collapse generating current within the coil. The Buell regulator has a closed circuit and keeps a continual current flow. These other regulators open the circuit stopping the current flow reducing the electrical load on the crank, reducing the heat in the primary, reducing the load on various bearings. Some say this is unmeasurable but it's real and it affects the longevity, power losses and other characteristics of the motor.I hope this makes some sense. I have never tried to crab a hold of a shaft of a one horse power motor and try to hold it still. I believe that I would not be able to stop the shaft, what I'm saying is this force is significant enough that it should not be dismissed so easily. Joe | ||
| Reepicheep |
If you want to do the math, watts (a unit of work) is Volts times Amps. So if the volts go to zero, power goes to zero, regardless of the amps. If the amps go to zero the power goes to zero, regardless of the volts. Thats what an open circuit is... many volts, and zero amps. So there is a lot of potential to do work there, but until you make the connection and start the amps flowing, nobody did any work. Its like a big rock at the top of a big hill. Lots of potential there, but nothing is happening. Joe, the math for amount of work is straightforward as well. One Horsepower is 746 watts. The entire charging system is what, maybe 850 watts? But much of that power is needed by the bike. So say there are 250 watts of "wasted" power. Thats about 1/3 horsepower wasted. And only at high RPM's (which is the only place the stator is making that many watts). We have dyno plots showing the same watts... at about 7000 RPM my XB9SX is making maybe 76 HP. So 1/3 HP at that point is about .4% of the total power your bike is making. It is real, and it is wasted, and you won't notice it unless you build some sort of *very* sensitive dyno. Keeping a motor making .3 HP from running would be hard work, but you could probably do it. Don't confuse inertia (.3 HP motor that has spun up something big and heavy) with power (motor using 1 HP to try and accelerate). Keeping a motor making 76 HP from running would be like diving into a great big wood chipper. Another way to look at it would be to think about hooking up your power drill to your motorcycle sprocket. Could it move the bike? Sure (given a long enough extension cord  ). Would it be any kind of even remotely satisfying motorcycle? Not if you are more then 8 years old. Would you notice it if you already had 228 other power drills running the bike? Nope. I'm not criticizing anyone on this thread, power as a unit of work is a really sticky thing to get your head around, and I have seem tons of engineers get it wrong, and few engineers get it right (myself included) until they sit down and start getting serious about grinding through some math. And I had this same argument (on the other side) with my elders when I showed up here on badweb about 5 years ago, Aaron Wilson did a great job explaining it. Then Aaron took all the fun out of a perfectly good internet argument by introducing facts and going out and buying a series regulator, hooking it to his bike, and looked at before and after runs. That reminds me... I gotta go build that "torque motor" and sell it on ebay. I can make 80 ft-lbs of torque with $8 worth of parts, and it will never consume a drop of gas. It makes zero HP, but 80 ft lbs of torque, and everybody knows you "feel" torque but not horsepower, right? ;) (and for $16, I can make you the "screaming chicken" version of that motor, and bump it up to 160 ft lbs... In theory it could go higher, but above that I think my 2x4's would start to split under their own weight, and I might have to change materials). | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
I'm curious. Did anyone ever run a dyno with the stator unplugged and then run it again with the stator leads shorted? Whatever difference in power from and allegedly more efficient regulator would lie within this margin. If the margin is not measurable, then the tiny improvement would certainly not be detectable. | ||
| Jlnance |
I have never tried to crab a hold of a shaft of a one horse power motor and try to hold it still. I believe that I would not be able to stop the shaft I've used 1/2 HP drills before. If the bit binds up it will throw you across the room. | ||
| Bad_karma |
Bill I understand what you are saying and agree. But I believe that properly match component can have a significant effect on the sum. Yes it's only a 1/3 hp by itself but if it's applied with other power conserving/building components it can be a plus. Contributions are not limited to just power gains. For me this is an item that I will add to my bike. Joe (Message edited by bad_karma on April 08, 2008) | ||
| Igneroid |
I have three amps: Marshall 100 watt(...uhhh 1/8th HP???) Mesa Boogie Single Rectifier Voodoo Amps One off Custom | ||
| Jos51700 |
Mesa Boogie=nice sound. I like. |
