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Coolice
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 05:51 pm: | 
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Hey I rode that way all Thursday! (and my eyes where wide open too!)
What an experience riding the track,you guys(racers)have my highest respect. |
Thansesxb9rs
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 06:26 pm: |
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How does full report on Hals motor sound negative. I just thought it would be a report of what happened to the motor, maybe a lot of people are getting jumpy to these kind of threads because of what happened to the XBRR.
Give the guy a break all he said was Hals Race Motors Full report to come. Sounds to me like we are about to be informed of what happened. Spring can not come sooner, we are all getting a little crazy. |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 08:28 pm: |
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Jumping in for the first race at Daytona of all places is quite an eye opener.
There is no other track like it. |
Diablomichael
| | Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 10:19 am: |
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I had hoped that all this would be done by now. The call from Hals never came yesterday. Looks like I will need to call them in the morning.
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Diablobrian
| | Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 12:03 am: |
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another Daytona pic...orange side up!
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Diablomichael
| | Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 11:57 am: |
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Hals did call today and I missed it . I tried to call Tom back but got his voice mail . Hope to know more soon! |
Lucas70374
| | Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 01:03 pm: |
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diablobrian or diablomichael. Where did you get the intake setup using the windshield on the race bike. |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 01:18 pm: |
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Our Uncle hand fabricated it.
Thanks L.J.! |
Sokota
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 09:35 am: |
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Some peliminary curiosities: How much running time did you get before failure? What was the nature of the failure, lock-up [siezure], or a smoking coasting come to a stop? What is the rev limiter set at on a race motor ?
(Message edited by sokota on March 28, 2006) |
Mr_cuell
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 09:53 am: |
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How do you simulate the effect of the ram air at triple digits speeds on a dyno to prevent a lean condition at those speeds? Have you found a way to incorporate the increased intake pressure into the equation for mapping?
I have wanted to build a ram air with silver hoses reminiscent of the late 80's ZX7's but have been concerned that if it works and I start really movin some air I will go lean if I don't have an intake pressure sensor in the mix to account for that - |
Diablomichael
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 10:10 am: |
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He was thinking of selling the system for around $600.00 PM me with questions.
More on the motor
I talked to Tom yesterday , He wants to see the plugs off the bike . looks like it will be a bit before much more is known. I placed 3 Voice mails and two emails with no response after we talked . I guess the guys are super busy. On a up note I will be interviewed by Fuel this morning. |
Diablomichael
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 05:52 pm: |
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I left another voice mail today. Still no reply from the last 3 voice mails and 2 emails placed on the 28th . This time I left it in the general Hals speed shop voice mail box . I thought I might have better luck. I guess the guys are super busy. I was hoping to know more by now . They should have the plugs I sent to them. |
Diablomichael
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 07:05 pm: |
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Got a call from the shop ( sam ,terry , and tom), I am letting this thread die for now. They (hals) are super busy but I feel really good about the future. The plugs had still not made it there . Sounds like we might tune the next motor at the shop! Hope we make it to Road America. I will post a race result hopefully then! |
Diablomichael
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 07:16 pm: |
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Mr cuell
You must have the ecm adjusted . I would not advise this for the street unless you routed the air not directly in the air box. They say it only helps under wide open throttle . I am only the rider but if i am thinking right the (wot) in the map needs to be set at 13500.
sokota
1. about 20 laps or so
2. locked up , limiter set at 7200 |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 09:08 pm: |
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Cuell,
At the speeds of a street bike, ram air ain't worth the trouble. Around a mere 3% boost at best at 150 mph. |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 11:50 pm: |
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For the most part on the street a ram air system works more as a sort of cold air induction like Blake says. It is mainly
seen on street bikes to make it legal on the racing counterpart.
On the true race ecm (the licensed racer only unit) the management software does show a barometric pressure test done at key,
or ignition, on and can be enabled for use beyond that. This would be what Mr_Cuell was looking for. This allows for altitude/
air density, or if enabled ram air use. These boxes have more smarts than I had given them credit for.
I was interested in this as well. My question is where is the sensor? Is it incorporated in the air temp sensor?
I had been meaning to ask but keep forgetting when I'm in a position to do so. If no one answers on here I will endeavor to do so. |
Mr_cuell
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 08:13 am: |
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I doubt I'll be racing, although I am setting the bike up to make it an easy decision should I decide to go that route again. I might not have enough dough to feel good about taking my beloved street bike and wringing its neck like that. (that is to say, enough dough to own two XB's) I have always had dedicated street bikes in addition to the race bikes, as the race bikes have become rat bikes in short order.
I figured the ram air wasn't worth much in performance, but I'd take what I could get for the track, and on a street bike it just looks tough. Al was the one that clued me into the hitch about air pressure and I was wondering how to get around it, and whether it would be worth it. I will probably get my racing license renewed, so I could get what I needed if that were an issue, but it sounds like for as cool as it might look it wouldn't be worth it for what I am doing.
Somebody did it on an XB though and it looked great to me . . . I don't know where the picture is though . .
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Mr_cuell
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 09:32 am: |
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Hey Diablo!
I just noticed that YOURS is the bike with the hoses! This whole time I though you had a carbon fibre rig going! Can you post close ups of the hose rig? I may want one just for the looks. Call me a poseur, I don't care!  |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 10:12 am: |
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I'll be putting a ram air set-up on my street bike soon. If for no other reason, because I can.
I cropped this pic from some I took at Daytona.
unfortunately, the race bike is disassembled awaiting motor repairs.
More than that, my digital camera is in Portland OR with my wife right now.
It is very similar to what the zx7 used. |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 10:15 am: |
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Note the duct tape. It is there because the air pressure ripped the corners out of
the fiberglass airbox cover. I'd say it was working That'll be re-inforced soon. |
Mr_cuell
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 10:24 am: |
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I wonder if those hoses could go straight through the airbox and ever put some fresh air on the rear cylinder - I have a micron so the right side scoop won't fit.
If it doesn't do anything under 150 or so, and I did rout it into the airbox instead of through it, would I need to remap ecm for just street riding I wonder? If it makes no appreciable difference in air flow at street speeds I am thinking it would not make any appreciable difference in A/F.
I really like the thought of putting fresh air right down on the rear cylinder with something like this though. Form and function. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 02:34 pm: |
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If you have had your EFI augmented/tuned to compensate for the current non-stock configuration of your current intake and exhaust tract, it would be highly inadvisable to change either without checking the affect on A/F over the engine's entire operational performance envelope. This is not due to the issue of ram air, just in consideration of the possible effects of changing the intake tract.
The geometric configuration of an engine's intake tract interacts significantly with the highly non-steady-state or transient nature of the engine's intemittent/pulse-like demands for fresh air. Change the intake tract's geometry and you can change the highly dynamic interaction between engine and intake.
Brian,
It may be more likely that rather than the effects of ram air causing your airbox sealing issue, it might have been due to the significant pressure pulses inside a sealed airbox that result whenever an intake valve closes, especially for mongo big cylinder displacements. |
Mr_cuell
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 02:56 pm: |
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I think Al told me something along those same lines - ie don't bother with it.
But - the fresh air to the rear cylinder idea - anyone think of a reason that that would be a waste of time? Anyone think it might just work and provide any cooling? I wonder if two hoses simply running through the airbox would effect the airflow/swirl in there enough to mess up the accuracy of the Micron/American Sport Bike filter map . . . |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 03:01 pm: |
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Well, I do know that this did not happen during dyno tuning.
Presumably the intake pulses were there during the runs to redline.
The damage did not occur until it was taken out and brought up to speed
on the track. This would tend to support my theory.
remember that with the surface area involved it would
not take a huge amount of pressure increase to tear out the
corners of the air box cover. I'm not claiming a huge gain. |
Diablomichael
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 04:41 pm: |
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there was pressure in the box , no question about it. On another note the fake tank was fiberglass and it was our first time out with the ram air. In looking at other top bikes at Daytona with ram air we picked up on better ideas on how to reinforce that areas around the bolts. They all had beefed up the area around the bolts , used extra washers , etc.
Hope this helps |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 06:44 pm: |
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Good point; even 0.5 psi ram effect would add up over a large area. Interesting. |
Curtyd
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 07:48 pm: |
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"Somebody did it on an XB though and it looked great to me . . . I don't know where the picture is though . . "
Hate to burst your bubble but the 89-90 Kawi ZX7, with the tubes thru the gas tank did NOT have ram air, Those tubes merely fed air to the airbox area and did not boost the pressure at all. Added some extra cooling was about all. ALL SHOW and NO GO, that all came later. I drove a 1989 for about six years, on and off, and was only a bit distressed to find those ugly hoses never really boosted HP at all. |
Mr_cuell
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 08:15 pm: |
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Oh I liked the look of them! I thought feeding the airbox from the front would boost pressure especially at high speed. Am I missing something on that one? Even if it is only cooling, thats not all bad. That may be what I do on the XB -
Sorry to have highjacked the motor thread, but while we're waiting we might as well chat about something - |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 08:58 pm: |
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Hate to burst your bubble but the 89-90 Kawi ZX7, with the tubes thru the gas tank did NOT have ram air
You are correct, but that picture is of a 91-92 zx7, NOT an 89-90, you can tell by the tail and swingarm
Oh and there was a factory kit, and a kit that you can still buy from airtech to make the tube fully fuctional, this was in the time that you raced what you sold, and installing the tubes on a production bike ment you could make them work on the race bike
Ask Scott Russel who won the championship on a bike like that one, in 91 i think
R |
Curtyd
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 09:53 pm: |
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Hey, I had Muzzy's and Chandler's signature on my fairing in 1989 after riding it to the races in Brainierd, MN from Fla. via Mosport in Canada. They took the championship before Russell, didn't they? I didn't clearcoat it and it finally faded.
I thought the paint job had changed by 1991. You should have heard what the hard-core HD folks said about those tubes, I finally conceded it was just a vacuum cleaner attachment of some sort.
Speed parts by ELECTROLUX and HOOVER.... |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 10:46 pm: |
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The corigation of the tubes they used didn't do them any favors as far as air
flow is concerned. Especially since the tubes were only what, 1 1/2 in to begin with.
It wansn't until 93 I think until Kawasaki had a real ram air system on the street.
Even that sucked at the track and led to the 96 version with twice the volume.
Our set-up uses 2 inch tubes. Some, Like Brian Bemisderfer (sp?) have bikes set up
with 3 inch tubes.
Here are his "a" and "b" bikes side by side.
note the different size intakes.
Here are closer pics
Not sure how much more ram effect it makes because it is not the optimal place for an
intake. (as close to the center of the leading point of the fairing is) The Hal's
set-up is designed to take more advantage of the high pressure air at the leading edge.
Trojan is running this set-up.
Unfortunately this unit is impractical for the street since it passes right through
the spot your gages sit. |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Friday, March 31, 2006 - 07:45 am: |
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They took the championship before Russell, didn't they?
To be honest, i dont know, dosent ring any bells, but you could be right
I thought the paint job had changed by 1991.
It did kinda, the colors in 91/92 are a little lighter, and little less green, but still the same style, just a alittle different
You should have heard what the hard-core HD folks said about those tubes
You should hear what the hard core Buell fans say when they see it parked next to the S1(i find it hard to part with bikes that have been good to me, and are worth basically nothing, rather keep them than give them away
I still like it, but its tuff on the back, runs great however, and its an R version, if that means anything
R |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, March 31, 2006 - 12:57 pm: |
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If the cross-sectional area of the ram intake ducting isn't steadily increasing as it travels from inlet to airbox, will such a configuration provide any ram air effect?
Fresh air is good too though.  |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Friday, March 31, 2006 - 02:37 pm: |
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I'm honestly not sure Blake. That would tend to reduce turbulence inside the tubing.
Length of ducting, and number of degrees the air has to turn also factor in. Not
to mention the material it's made of and relative smoothness of the interior of the
ducts.
I'm sure many of these factors were part of the Hal's ram air set-up developement, and
then the XBRR's ram air set-up. Some of these teams do not run air cleaners because
of the restriction it has to air flow. I'm not convinced of the validity of this, but
those guys can afford to rebuild their motors more often than we can.
A colder breath of air is a denser breath of air. dense air = more hp. That's why there
will be a cold/ram air set-up on my bike before all is said and done. |
Martin
| | Posted on Saturday, April 01, 2006 - 05:32 am: |
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I read somewhere that the main benefit other than cool air of what is called ram-air (Just like the cylinder head covers on old two-stroke suzukis) is that of setting-up resonant frequencies in the intake that help with filling/prevent reversion rather than the more obvious pressurising effects. This has a lot to do with the noise you hear that is 'engineered-in' especially in Kawasakis. Modern intake systems are much more complicated in shape, with varying volumes and so on to cater for a huge range of conditions and legal requirements. Buell know a lot about this (Did I hear Breadbox?) and I'm willing to bet that as much thought went into that aspect as into the RR exhaust development |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Saturday, April 01, 2006 - 08:39 am: |
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Some of the things you see engineered into the air ducting have nothing to do with any
performance gains, but everything to do with EPA noise standards. If you look at the
race versions of many of these street ram air systems they do not have the resonance
chambers etc. Some do however have some very slick tricks with variable length velocity
stacks, and variable intake tract length. There has also been a serious effort to maximize
the air box volume across the board. There is a lot of work involved with developing an
optimized system. Many hour on the computer and flow bench followed by dyno (empirical)
testing. Then again low budget, grass roots guys sometimes do pull a rabbit out of
the old hat.
Other times we have to play Bullwinkle, and settle for whatever happens to come out.
(must of picked the wrong hat. ) |
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