| Author | Message | ||
     Jerseyguy |
M1 - I'm with you. 2k is a must. Frankly, I'd like to see it tuned from idle right on up. When examining the data from my on the road tuning system I realized that vastly more time is spent on the road at 2k-3k than near top RPM. | ||
| M1combat |
I do see Terry's point though... With something like the Force pipe it's completely useless below 3K. I just don't see any reason to go with the lowest common denominator (no pun intended). The fact that some pipes pull hard from 1400 should be noted in the test and represented in the dyno plots. | ||
| Al_lighton |
While it is absolutely true that "vastly more time is spent on the road at 2k-3k than near top RPM", this time is spent in the cruise mode. This test is a test about exhausts, not about the ability to tune a bike to run in cruise mode. I have no doubt that for most of these pipes (the Force possibly being the exception), the bike can be tuned for good operation in cruise mode. But that isn't the purpose of the test. In order to do that comparison, we would have to do cruise mode mapping for each pipe. This takes a LOT longer and just isn't practical given the other constraints. I have no problem with starting the sample trap lower and trying to capture the WOT response from 1500, but with 5th gear roll-ons, it just isn't going to be particularly meaningful for some pipes. A Force will likely have a doggish response in that area from what I've heard of it, I'd be happy to be proven wrong. Even if we did have time to do cruise type tuning, there really isn't a good objective way to measure it. You don't graph during cruise tuning, and the measure of success is a fairly subjective evaluation of how well the bike transitions. About the only objective measurement one can obtain from the cruise tuning is whether the AFV can be made to remain at 100 across the learn mode. A pipe that won't flatten out to 14.7:1 won't do that, and it's AFV will be hard too stabilize at 100. But again, we just can't perform that type of tuning across this many pipes in the amount of time we'll have. When I say we'll focus on flattening the curve above 3K RPM, this is because of the nature of how the pulls are done and how the A/F responds. When you crank open the throttle, there are some interesting transients in the A/F curve due to interactions between the fuel and Accel tables. If we see gross lean or rich transitions between 2 and 3K with a 2K roll-on, we can poke at the Accel table to try to flatten them. But the amount of time it takes to make that really clean is just not something we'll likely have time to do. 3K to redline is easy, 2K to 3K can take 20 pulls alone to get nailed down just so. And one thing that needs to be made absolutely clear....fuel and spark tuning will not turn a pipe that exhibits massive hills and valleys in its torque and fueling curves into a flat line wonder. Some of the curve shapes are inherent to the pipe design, and no amount of fuel table manipulation will change that. We can push the fuel curves around as best we can, but in some cases, it may just not be possible to flatten them out no matter how long you spend on them. We will keep notes and publish that evaluation as well. From experience, I can tell you that the Micron was fairly easy to flatten out. And judging from the shape of the A/F and torque curves that were plotted on the SS Drummers chart the other day, I'm confident that we can flatten that one out easily as well. I have my doubts about the Force and Ti-force, but I promise that we'll do our damndest to flatten them out in the time that we've got. The ability for a bike to respond well to tuning is a somewhat subjective evaluation critria that we should be able to document to some degree. | ||
| Kds1 |
Oh God here we go....lets not justify what power range the pipes run in, if you can't start at 1500 then there's no sense in me even doing the test....I don't build a muffler and then tell the public that it's intended to run at the end of the rev limit or it will look stupid on the dyno pull when you have your bike run... sounds like we are already starting to make rules to sacrifice the runs of the competition....I'm not worried about the top numbers, but I want you to see what can be had at the bottom also....these tests are supposed to benefit Al selling maps and telling what products perform in what way...lets show the strong and weak points of the exhausts....if you will only start at 3k and you want Drummer maps then lets see all dyno runs in time frame... Kevin www.kdfab.com | ||
| Hogs |
Al... I know you will be busy and all, However IF ya get the time could ya throw the force on there as well on the stock 12 Header...I have been running it this way now going on two years and I have had no plms. what so ever with this setup... I think ..And probaly know that the plm. with all I have heard on the BAdweb ...People complaning about the Force its with that Damn Force header and thats IT.!!! My Ride Takes full throtle from 2K up with NO plms. I have the race ecm/k&N,Norris catch can, open inner air box,as well as open and vented outer cover..That Force header pipe is the plm... I`m not sure but I think I`m the only one who runs the Force can with the stock 12 header and NEVER had a plm. When ya think about it its the same as using the Stock header with ALL the After market Mufflers and mine works GREAT.. Just my .02 cents..And thanks IF ya get the time.. | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
The point in my post was to treat all pipes equal, not in where we start the pull, but in within a range letting each pipe start where it wants. We will all see the pipe that runs at 1500 and the one that runs at 3000. Kevin, if you want your to start at 1500 we can do that, but don't burden the "Force" pipe to start there. I find that when doing 5th gear pulls on a Buell depending on the mods and pipe I need to start as low as I can to get the bike to make a good pull and not stall. The other side of the coin is there also and if a pipe peaks the torque and HP 2000 below the Rev limit, once we note that, there is no reason to continue to run it up there. ... The Test Will Be Fair. ... I just don't want you guys to think we are going to tune at low TP settings as this is a WOT shoot out, with enough tuning to keep it safe for the bikes when switching from pipe to pipe. ... Terry | ||
| 99buellx1 |
The problem there Hogs, is that is not a commercially available option. I would like this test to revolve around commercially available products so that these results will be able to be duplicated on the customer side. Without that the test is meaningless. Al and I talked and would include a Force, but only if Force is going to continue to produce the product. There was talk that they were dropping their Buell products, if that is true (and we will try to find out) then there is not a real good reason to test it because it is not commercially available. Same goes for the Latus. I'm sure this will be a touchy subject, and I know that people have both of these pipes, but the way that I view it is that if I cannot go purchse it and am going to have manufacturer support for that product, then there is no need to test with it. | ||
| M1combat |
I hear you Terry. I think what you are saying will work out well. Start each pipe's WOT tuning as low as you can get it to w/o stalling/sputtering/falling on it's face (within reason anyway, I don't see a reason to start from Idle, but IMO 3K was too high). I believe though, that if you CAN get a pipe to NOT fall on it's face from 2K... It should be noted and you should make the best of it. I agree Al... No use in burdening the Force pipe by trying to start it at 2K. It takes a good half hour for it to GET to 3K under load anyway... When it gets there though  ... Hold the **** on . If you would like, I can get you guys a PCIII map for the Force header/"Muffler" combo [/EDIT - (on a 12)] that should give you a reasonable starting place. Just mentally convert the WOT line from the PCIII map and plug what you think will be about right into the DL. Should save a little time anyway. That header creates a very different VE curve. (Message edited by M1Combat on February 10, 2006) | ||
| M1combat |
Agreed there Craig. I hadn't heard that the Force may be dis-continued and yes, it is a reasonably rare pipe. And yes, I say use the entire system. Hogs... I'll be putting my stock header back on (because I agree... The Force header on a twelve isn't a good thing) and I'll be getting a PCIII map generated for that setup. I'll let you know what happens. It could be a while though. | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
You Guys this is all good stuff and we can test what we get. I only need the WTO numbers from the PC3 and it only takes a minute to plug them in to see if they work. Remember a PC will only show the amount of change from the ECM it was mapped for, but it will be a place to start from. ... If we don't over think all this I know we can make it all work and get some good data. . ... Well I have my first bike of the day done and am going to start the XB9 DL MAP. ... Al will post our results. ... Terry | ||
| M1combat |
Cool... I'll type it all out and send it to you unless you have some PCIII software (can be DL'd from PC's website) and you just want the whole map. Lemme know. | ||
| Homer |
Once thing I can't discern from this thread is which airbox are you all running for the test? Will it be stock, stock with K&N, or an open airbox like the American Sport Bike unit? I'm hoping the later since I expect most folks who spring for an exhaust and map will also go with an open airbox | ||
| Mr_cuell |
Its the one from American Sport Bike - Al is sending me one right now if you want to check it out while the weather is too cold to ride - just did the Micron so you could hear that too - | ||
| Jerseyguy |
Well gentlemen, I'm afraid I'm going to respectfully disagree with you all. When I'm "cruising" along at 2500 RPM and twist the grip I want my bike to accelerate with as much authority as possible. I don't necessarily want to kick it down a couple to get in the power band. If I did, then I'd have bought an IL4 rice burner. "The point in my post was to treat all pipes equal, not in where we start the pull, but in within a range letting each pipe start where it wants." No disrespect intended, but this is an absurd statement. In my opinion "to treat all pipes equal" would be to start all pipes at idle and twist the throttle and let them run. If a pipe falls on its face down low or in the middle or at the top, I WANT TO KNOW. That is the purpose of the test. As a street rider I may not care at all about peak hp, but rather usable torque where I "cruise". If I was a racer I might only care about the upper half of the powerband and peak HP. As a consumer I want to know the characteristics of my intended purchase to see if they suit the way I ride. The point here is that every test on every pipe should be conducted in EXACTLY the same way, across the entire RPM range, to the best of our ability. Otherwise it has little meaning. "but don't burden the "Force" pipe" - Again, please understand that I mean no disrespect, but this is also an absurd comment. Pity the the unknowing customer who "burdens" his new Force pipe while "cruising" at 2500 RPM and it falls flat. (BTW, I wouldn't know if a Force pipe was good down low or not. I've never owned one). My advice to Kevin is that if all the pipes aren't tested exactly the same across the entire RPM range, then he shouldn't waste his time. It is my opinion and belief that the Drummers will post better bottom end numbers than any pipe that anyone makes and post equal or better numbers in the middle and at the top. I'm sorry if I have offended anyone here, as it is certainly not my intention. I'm a ardent believer in Kevin's ability to design exhaust systems and I feel the need to make absolutely certain that he, as a one man shop, gets the same shake as the big companies. On a lighter note: Al, I had to chuckle when you mentioned that the Micron US distributer might attend. If the Drummer US distributer attends, he'll have to turn out the lights and lock the door 'cause there's no one left.........  | ||
| Medic_2512 |
Who rides their Buell around at 2000rpms? If you are it called lugging the engine. Mine is reving like 4000rpms at 80mph on the highway and otherwise is always above 3000rpms min, anywhere. It idles at 1000 rpms and you gas it and let the clutch out and your already reving at over 2000rpms. And now someone wants to start the pulls at 1500rpms? Yeah so they can say they pipe makes the most power at an rpm that you are never in. | ||
| Medic_2512 |
I`m sorry to vent. Finally people are taking the time and money to do this test and it should be done right. Is it just me, or am i the only person who revs his XB up. I`m not saying i ride around at 5500rpms, but it`s never below 3000 rpms thats for sure. Whats the next test gonna be, which pipe makes the most power at idle? | ||
| Buellin_ri |
I am 4k+ most times. | ||
| Medic_2512 |
Thank you! I feel better now. I`m usually above 4000rpms most of the time too. Even on the highway just cruising quickly at 80mph your at 4000rpms if not higher. I think some of the riders here should be riding Big Wheels and not Buells.You can lug them around all day long. | ||
| Roc |
I look forward to the results! | ||
| Mr_cuell |
I don't know Terry from a hole in the wall. Never met him, never e-mailed him, never talked to him. But I have been reading a bit around here lately and it seems like he knows his stuff when it comes to dyno's. Seems like it spends a lot of time trying to get Buells to perform. As far as I know, he doesn't work for any pipe manufacturer, except the "race" pipe, and I don't get the feeling he is biased from anything I have read. His experience lately is tuning ECM's w/Microns, but I don't think thats a brand thing, I think he just seems to enjoy getting power out of bikes. Given all those factors I think anyone tempted to play armchair dyno-man should trust him, and let him run it how he thinks is best based on his experience. Cripes, I think he is doing this with his own time for free, and I sincerely believe that he is not out to shoot anything in the legs. The only little hitch that someone could yell foul over is that his dealership doesn't re-sell Drummers. Kevin could if he chose however (and I think Kevin you'd be well served to up your KD FAB price a bit, sell it to the dealers at somewhere around current price, and let them re-sell it for you and make a buck for themselves while their at. I'm sure you've thought that through so its not so much my business) Anyway - this Terry guy seems okay. He's a professional. I think we should stand back and let him work - (Message edited by Mr_cuell on February 10, 2006) | ||
| Mr_cuell |
So Kevin, what I'm really saying is "Up yours!" small joke! ha ha couldn't resist after reading my own post. I'm such a freakin comedian -  \ (Message edited by Mr_cuell on February 10, 2006) (Message edited by Mr_cuell on February 10, 2006) | ||
| Old_man |
Show it all, all of them. What difference does it make. Compare it all. | ||
| Hogs |
Well Well Well, Pardon me ..But I will not read or comment on any more with regards to this post...As I see it what ever is done means little, start the revs. here, Start the revs there... Seems like most here remind me of a bunch of kinder Garden Children.. MAn Going on 30 years here riding HOGS ..I think I learned way back then not to LUG a HArley Motor worst thing ya can do ..Keep them revs up, where the motor likes it...Keeps it Clean etc.etc.etc... Most here have a thing for SOUND..Who gives a #&#$ if one makes 3 or 6 Hp more Go buy a JAP bike...I like the FORCE its LOUD and it works for me HAs saved my Behind more than once from Cagers I really don`t think all these tests will prove any thing ,Someone will always say BUT what IF ya did it this way, And what If you did it that way and on and on and on.. Have fun guys ... May the FOrce be with YA...!!!! | ||
| Al_lighton |
Look, all I ever said/meant was that we wouldn't spend inordinate amounts of time trying to flatten the A/F curve out at the bottom of the sample trap range. Terry typically starts his WOT pulls just below 2k, with the sample trap starting at 2K. In the SS Drummer plots, you can see that they started their sample trap at 1500RPM. If you look at the curves on either, you'll see some pretty wildly varying A/F curves in those regions that take the better part of 1000 RPM to settle out. You could spend HOURS on each pipe trying to get those transients flattened out, and I'd bet you'd never succeed. We don't have hours per pipe. So what are you going to do, throw the baby out with the bath water? Not do the test because we don't have hours to try to flatten those sections out? I think it is perfectly reasonable to let those transients fall as they may, hit the accel/Fuel table once or twice down there to do what you can, but focus the efforts on doing the fuel trim where it counts, and where we'll be successful, from 2.5-3K on up. The transient should substantially diminished, and the power is, or should be, starting to spool up, and the tuning can be done with the most gain for the time spent. All would be treated equally, which is what the whole reason for doing a test like this is. I don't know about how you guys drive, but I NEVER wack my throttle wide open from 1.5K in FIFTH gear. And even if I did, I would more expect a healthy dose of pinging more than I would expect my front end to surge skyward. We should focus on whats most important for the time we have. If starting the sample trap at 1.5K is what folks want, and it isn't detonating the bikes to do it, fine, start the sample traps there. But we have about 10-15 pulls max per pipe to get the fuel dialed in reasonably. Once upon a time, this test was going to be done at Appleton, with ZERO ability to change the fueling whatsoever. Now we bring that capability in, and some think the test shouldn't be done unless we dial in each pipe perfectly for a WOT pull from bottom to top? I think we have to be realistic here. Debate is fine, that's what discussion boards are for. From this, we'll come up with a plan that satisfies, generate a test procedure, follow it, record the results, and publish them. Once we start the testing, there won't be time for debate, we'll need to charge through it like a machine to get it done in the amount of time we'll have. | ||
| Jajarm |
Are there really 3%rs out there spending a lot of time riding in the Idle-2K range? | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
Thanks You Guys and the comparisons will be fair. ... Steve I am sorry you will recommend to Kevin that he not come play with us, for we will all loose is he decides to do that. ... I don't know any other way to explain how Dyno comparisons’ work other that to use a non Buell as an example. Bike #1 is a Stage 1 88inch Twin Cam HD with: S/E 204 cams S/E Air Cleaner and S/E II Slip-ons. Bike #2 also a Stage 1 88inch Twin Cam HD with: S/E 204 cams S/E Air Cleaner and Thunder header Bike #3 also a Stage 1 88inch Twin Cam HD with: S/E 211 cams S/E Air Cleaner and Thunder header Bike #1 will pull from the bottom and peak at low 90 ft/lbs RPM with good strong flat torque curve and the HP will peak in the mid 80, but it's all over at 4500 RPM. Bike #2 will pull from 1700 but loose 10 ft/lbs torque at 2500 then peak in the high 80 ft/lbs RPM with stepped torque curve and the HP will peak in the high 80's and pull all the way to red line. Bike #3 will pull from 1700 and at 3200 will start to pull hard. It will peak in low 90 ft/lbs RPM with a strong stepped torque curve and the HP will peak in the mid 90 and will make power all the way to red line. If I were running these all three runs would be just a little different, but what would be clear from the run sheets is that: #1 is a low end set-up #2 has a low end cam and a top end pipe #3 is a top end set-up. This is something we talk about everyday Customers want to know what works best. We ask them how they ride and than let them see the system that fits the way they ride and they decide. … I am not foolish enough to believe this will change any ones mind. But if I am asked to come run the bikes this is how I would chose to do it. ... But I serve at the pleasure of the people putting it all together so if anyone has dyno experience and a better idea I am all ears. ... Terry PS The first pulls on the XB9 with Micron and American Sport Bike Air Box hit 90 RWHP I will start tuning early tomorrow. ... TP | ||
| Blake |
My opinion is that a good starting point is 2000 rpm for the XB12 and 2500 for the XB9. If a pipe doesn't work well down low, the test results should show that and be equal for every pipe, no different than for a pipe that doesn't work well up high. All the runs will end at the rev limit, no? Would you all be willing to let me write up some formal test procedures? Trust me to be an impartial witness? | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
Blake I am OK with that, but it won't be the engine size that dictates where to start it will be the pipe it's self. Set those as general guidelines and require me to note any pipe that can't to within them. (NOTE) sometimes it takes only a minute to add or remove some fuel down low and it will run down there, but sometimes it takes hours and I still need to bump the starting point 200 RPM and everything is OK. And concerning the SSDrummer I can start it at 1500 and note that "It pulled hard from 1500 all the way to ???." Another thing can you contact Al and think about a performance formula that weights the TQ/HP or HP/TQ. I don't think another long debate here would get anywhere. The charts clearly will show HP pipes and TQ pipes, but a overall performance factor would be something for the two of you to look at. ... Just an idea and I know that such factor would not change anybody's mind about which pipe is best. ... Terry | ||
| Xb9 |
The first pulls on the XB9 with Micron and American Sport Bike Air Box hit 90 RWHP.... If that's a stock engine with only the micron and airbox as mods - very very impressive! Can't wait to see what the Revolution Performance big bore kit will produce!!  | ||
| Henrik |
Hmmm. 1) for someone who's been involved in research and seen what it takes to generate valid results, let me say this; you guys have set yourself up for a tremendous amount of work, and so far have done a great job at defining parameters to get the job done well. 2) again, with background in research, I would much prefer that you limit the your tests while generating valid results - and you seem to be. Way too many tests (studies) try to do everything and then end up proving nothing. Formulating strict parameters for the tests and sticking to them will do wonders for the validity of your results. 3) no matter how much time you spent tuning for each individual pipe, the resulting map, while being a good starting point, will never perfectly fit all other bikes, even of similar configuration. Varying tolerances stacking either for or against you. Which is neither a good nor a bad thing - just something for the rest of us to keep in mind. 4) as long as you eliminate most of the big issues, such as heat soak, correction factors or plain horrible tuning, I think most of us will be able to interpret and make decisions based on our riding preferences. 5) no matter how well you plan and execute these tests, there will always be someone questioning or interpreting differently ... so just do your thing and hopefully have some fun with it  All in all I think you're doing a great job. Looking forward to the results. Henrik |
