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Buell Forum » Big, Bad & Dirty (Buell XB12X Ulysses Adventure Board) » Archive through April 14, 2017 » Engine dies at speed « Previous Next »

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Archive through March 26, 2017Etennuly30 03-26-17  09:51 pm
Archive through March 02, 2017Natexlh100030 03-02-17  02:28 pm
         

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Tempest766
Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2017 - 10:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I can't get any weird condition by wiggling cables, and I have done a half-assed ECM relocation during this process. I stuck it on the lower end of the battery and it sits 1/2 inch lower than it did where the high connector was. that's not to say that damage wasn't done before I moved it: damage that is not readily visible. and I think I mentioned this before, but I wonder if there could be ECU damage to the IO interface from when the VR went out last year and was spewing high voltage through the system. It has since been replaced.

OK. I don't relish paying IDS $300 bucks for an ECU just to test this, although if that is the problem I'd definitely be happier with a racing ECU in it.

Wishing I knew someone close by who I could bribe with a sammich and a beer in exchange for the use of their 2008XT ECM. :^(
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Tootal
Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2017 - 10:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I just sped read this again and didn't see spark plug wires mentioned unless I missed it. If you haven't done that yet you might try running it in the dark with the lower air box off so you can see the front plug wire. It could be arcing when the motor gets in a certain position under acceleration plus the fact it seems to be getting worse. The plug wire will rub the frame until it's bare, mine did. If you've checked this I stand corrected. I feel your frustration!!!
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Tempest766
Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2017 - 10:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

@Tootal - Admittedly my plugs and wires have been neglected...and they are on my list of parts to replace before the riding season is here. The spark jump in the dark is a good test that I'll do anyways.
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Dtaylor
Posted on Monday, March 27, 2017 - 10:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hey Rob, if it were me, I'd also replace all the relays with brand new ones. They are only about $6 a piece from H-D --cheap like borscht.

I've had flakey relays cause intermittent (sometimes related to heat) running/starting/electrical issues a couple of times. Now I just replace the lot of them every couple of years.
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Ourdee
Posted on Monday, March 27, 2017 - 01:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Cheaper to just swap the relays around and see if the problem changes to something else.
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Mark_weiss
Posted on Monday, March 27, 2017 - 09:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I strongly doubt that damaged ECU connectors are the cause. The problem seems to precise and consistent. Same for a fuel pump problem. Even if the pump stops, the engine runs down for a few seconds, not a sudden stop. Similar for damaged plug wires. They cause intermittent problems, or maybe just stop working. Not suddenly cutting off at 4k. Even faulty relays are not so regular. It really seems like some sort of a logic problem.

It might be interesting to warm the bike up until the fan kicks on. Then disconnect the temperature sensor and see if the issue persists.
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Jasonmcelroy
Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2017 - 04:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Just to be sure it's not vibration related, you could unmount the ECU and wrap it in a old t-shirt or something and place it out of the way where the seat won't bear on it.

The reason, you ask?

Problem could still be a harmonic issue where the ECU and connector vibrate a certain way at 4k rpm. I've seen these types of problems with ignition coils and control modules plenty of times.

By removing your hard mount temporarily, you are changing the harmonic properties and isolating the ECU from vibration as compared to when it's hard mounted.

If you get the same behavior, you can feel confident that it's not a vibration issue.

Jason

(Message edited by jasonmcelroy on March 28, 2017)
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Hugie03flhr
Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2017 - 04:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I was poking around trying to find something out on my bike and I remember coming across a thread about a Ulysses breaking up when the fan kicked on. The poster traced it back to the fan wires going thru a hole in the frame that wore and shorted. I tried going back to find it but I couldn't.
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Tempest766
Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2017 - 08:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

We're still looking at sensors CPS, and BAS now. Will also probably get a racing ECU regardless, since I've never been happy with performance of the HD supplied one. I'm working with IDS right now to determine if it is worth them bench testing my current ECU, or if the problem is solely sensor related.
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Mark_weiss
Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2017 - 12:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

BAS, just like the Engine Cut Off switch, will stop the fuel pump. That's why I'm focused on the ECU. Even most sensors will not stop the engine, just cause it to go to low power, or misfire, etc.

I'm thinking that the ECU has some sort of event programmed to occur when the rpm reaches 4k while running at fan-on temperature. Possibly adjusting the ignition and/or fuel map for more cooling.

On that thought, it will run all day long at fan-on, so long as you stay below 4k?
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Tempest766
Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2017 - 02:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Tim at IDS asked me to do a couple of things and get back to him. Since they wrote the firmware I'm hoping they will shortly tell me whether to try a different ECU. In the meantime I am also replacing plugs and wires, and taking the opportunity to inspect sensors and connectors.
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Tempest766
Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2017 - 08:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I'm not gonna jynx it by saying "problem solved", but I replaced the plugs in my Buell and put in a new racing ECM from IDS last night. Tonight I put about 15 miles on the bike and it performed flawlessly. I become more and more convinced that the ECM that NewCastle Harley gave me wasn't right from day one. Lousy performance and poor mileage, then more solder joint cracks, even though they butchered the seat when they installed that ECM. I can only chalk it up to incompetence or lack or caring on their part.

My power/torqueiness is back, engine idles high then drops to 1100RPM when warm, full throttle is available, and the power curve is back to what I remember when I first bought the bike.

I have relocated the ECM as free-floating in the gap between the battery and the shock. Tomorrow I'll get some play-doh and make sure that there is no contact between the ECM and the seat at all. I'm content to just let it float on top of the rubber strap holding the battery in.

Now I need to see if I can justify keeping it because I just bought a 2015 Yamaha FJR1300A with only 135 miles on it. And yes...they are vastly different animals.
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Tempest766
Posted on Wednesday, April 05, 2017 - 09:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

*** PROBLEM SOLVED ***
ECM was bad. Rode 100 miles this evening on the new ECM and all the expected torque/power, fuel economy, and efficient engine operating temperature is back. In fact, with the new IDS ECM it runs better than it ever has since I've owned it. It's like riding a new bike, which is gonna make it harder to let it go if I do decide to sell it.
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Ourdee
Posted on Wednesday, April 05, 2017 - 10:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Keep it, or you will be sorry.
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Mark_weiss
Posted on Thursday, April 06, 2017 - 12:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

It is good to hear that the problem was solvable, even if it took a while to track down. It seems that electronic glitches are always that way.

Which ECM version did you choose?
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Sagehawk
Posted on Thursday, April 06, 2017 - 03:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Are the current ids ecm's workable with ecmspy, tunerpro , and megalog viewer or are they now a proprietary ecm only to be accessed with their products?
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Steveford
Posted on Thursday, April 06, 2017 - 06:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Nobody says you can't have more than one motorcycle.
In fact, it's advisable.
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Tempest766
Posted on Thursday, April 06, 2017 - 06:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

@Sagwhawk @Mark_Weiss -- IDS just sells their racing ECM for 3 bills. I don't really have any other frame of reference to gauge it other than it seems to be similar to how the bike performed when I first bought it (shortly thereafter HD dealer screwed it up). Bike runs cool now, has plenty of power, my fuel efficiency jumped by about 6MPG. I have no idea whether the ECM is compatible with the reverse engineered 3rd party tuning tools. I do seem to remember them speaking unkindly about some of those tools damaging their ECMs. It doesn't matter to me though. The bike is now more than rideable and also importantly...sellable, if I decide to go that route sometime.

@Steveford - I will stress over whether to sell it for some time before deciding. I need to recoupe some of what I spent on the new FJR and it's also an additional 450 bucks a year in insurance that I need to justify spending if I don't ride the thing enough.

On another note: I did the play-doh on the ecm connectors after relocating it to sitting on top of the low end of the battery. 100 miles later there are no deformations in the playdoh, so in that location no contact with the seat. I'm happy and I don't mind it free floating there.
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Natexlh1000
Posted on Friday, April 07, 2017 - 09:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I'm so glad to read that you have this nailed down.
My ECU went south in a spooky way that also simulated a sensor failure. It was farting out the intake and sputtering like the timing was wrong.
This can't be on a 2008 and up as it taken directly from the crank itself.
I tried reworking my ECU with my trusty soldering iron but it didn't change anything.
I put a scope on the timing sensor as it came into the ECU as it was depotted and easy to get at the pins.
The signals looked just fine to me so I also bit the bullet and went with the IDS race ECT.
Holy crap the difference was night and day.

My only minor gripe is the new fan logic makes it run all the time and that leaves less power for heated gear and stuff.
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Tempest766
Posted on Friday, April 07, 2017 - 11:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

@Natexlh1000 - mine is a 2008 XT. I also experienced the intake farts and other problems that in hindsight indicate to me that the timing was WAYYYYYY OFFFFFF!!!! I only hope that for as long as I ran the thing like that, no real engine damage occurred. So far, so good though on my test rides after fixing it. Now, if the damned snow would finally go away for a few months....sigh

Im not sure what the fan profile on the new ECM is. When I first installed it and let it run in my garage idle for a long time the fan did stay on for about 120 seconds after I shut the engine off. That is similar behaviour to the old program. However, while test riding I didn't notice the newer fan on while moving and fan off while stopped behaviour of the newer firmware either. Actually that's quite ok with me. I do not like the newer comfort program either.
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Natexlh1000
Posted on Friday, April 07, 2017 - 01:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Basically, the new fan logic is that it turns on when you're above 15MPH.
Mine hasn't left the fan on after shutdown yet but I haven't rode it in the summer yet.
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Sagehawk
Posted on Friday, April 07, 2017 - 11:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I answered my own query in that ids offers the cmi lite to access their own ecm products. That's cool. I had queried the question of head temperature and what is ' ideal ' for my 07 12x or any other 12 motor. In spite of procol. Does anyone sense that with this new fan protocol, is the fan running at 100% rpm during running while at speed? Or is it running at a lesser speed? Then when below a certain speed (mph) it shuts down? Curious as to I wish to understand the protocol yall are speaking of. Understand, this is not for my 07 12x as I'm ddfi2, not ddfi3.
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Tempest766
Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2017 - 04:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

@sagehawk - I cannot say with certainty, but I seem to remember on the 2009+ firmware the fan only turning enough while moving to avoid becoming an air block, so definitely not at FULL SPEED. I also remember the fan shutting off below about 10MPH when coming to a stop.

Like others have stated, I prefer it to only run when the top of the cylinder head temp hysteresis is overrun. The fan running constantly while moving HAS TO be detrimental to its length of life.
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Sagehawk
Posted on Sunday, April 09, 2017 - 10:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Where do you hail from, tempest766? I'm from south of houston and in two years now we haven't even been below 32. I have mine come on at 200c and cutoff at 170. Went tire shopping for wife's bike yesterday , about 70 mile ride in 78f weather and fan came on several times up at 70 mph or so. Slow down and cools off fan turns off. One opinion I've heard is 170c to 200 c head temp is good. Also the new protocol has fan runnING about 30 to 40% of maximum while up at speed. Doesn't apply to my 07 but I like to understand what parameters all the year bikes do. I may buy another one in the future. Never know!
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Steveford
Posted on Monday, April 10, 2017 - 07:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Semi-off topic but I usually run 89 octane in the Useless but the other day I stuck in 92 or 93 or whatever it is.
The fan came on a LOT less often.
Other than that, it seemed to run the same.
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Tootal
Posted on Monday, April 10, 2017 - 08:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If the temps are under 90 degrees I can run lower octane if it's not ethenol. Otherwise I have to run premium or it will ping big time!
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